mgcvk

The BMW oil burners are all about mid range torque and scoobs are all about acceleration from a standing start and boosting out of corners. If you are doing about 70mph and even drop a cog in an impreza you are going to be hard pressed to out accelerate a powerful oil burner. Imprezas aren't that fast when moving after the initial burst of acceleration. Things may be different at around 400-500bhp but at around 300bhp and below thats my experience.

RRH

I did, but the pace of that thing was phenominal.

I was already pressing on up the hill when it came up behind me, dropped to 4th and pulled over as soon as I was able, whilst keeping it planted, to see what he had, and he just sailed past at a hell of a rate.

mgcvk

Torque.

RRH

yep

Spooky Mulder

By the time you have changed down the BMW will have outflanked you.

Remember masses of torque and an auto box mapped to keep the engine right at the peak torque level to maximise acceleration, especially going up hill.

Having owned both (STi, Spec C) and BMW 330 and 530 I am pretty sure that while the Spec C will be far faster around Cadwell, on real roads there is much less in it.

As for the 335/535 they are simply awesome. I wouldn't even bother with the petrol cars.

hhh1234

iTrader: (17)

torque is the winner in the end.

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

It's a diesel FFS ... not yet good enough to beat a like for like petrol engined car eg 2 litre vs 2 litre etc. They are catching up though

Might it have been a 335d?

TX.

PS

My old Spec C was 375/375 & could take on & thrash ANY diesel at any revs

martwrxsl

Like VBH 330d was keeping up with an M3 on the track on fifth gear FFS. Get a grip 330d have good mid range torque but they are not high performance cars.

martwrxsl

Torque is the winner but diesels only manage it for a 2000rpm range, where as petrol manages it for as much as a 6000rpm range. The petrol car might not have as much but it has it more of the time. Honda civic type r driven properly would beat a 330d. Formular 1 cars don't have alot of torque.

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

Some of you guys want to go out in a well sorted Turbo Diesel as there is a lot of rubbish on here about 2000rpm powerbands and the like.

We regularly take some oil burners to the ring and the new BMW's are amazing, as are some of the later Mercedes Diesels.

Remember, BHP is a fictional figure and could easily be bananas, Torque is the rotational force that moves your car and teh more of it you have the faster the car. Its all about area under the graph, not how high the peak climbs.

GazTheHat

Paul3446

Are F1 cars Torquey?

330dan

well whats your definition of high performance? - 330d's have more torque than scoobs, more bhp than some scoobs, one thrashed the OP and numerous other people on these threads, VBH uses one on track days and beats other 'high performance' cars, people on this thread have said they are better out of twisties and on a drag strip, they are being made to rev higher and pull through a greater range of revs, they can be tuned up and modified.....tell me where they are not high performance!

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

Not really. An F1 car, being a race car needs maximum work done at any time so instead of looking for tractability that is low end torque, they are designed to make use of revs to generate a lot of horsepower over a wide powerband instead. (HorsePower = Work Done)

An engine generating 650bhp at 18000rpm is only actually making 190ftlb of torque at peak power.

By Comparison, A Subaru making 650bhp at 8000rpm has 426ftlb of torque at peak power.


Torque = (HPx5252) / RPM

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

I drive fast cars every day of my life. Its part of my job, and in my opinion you have a fast car mate. Don't let the anti diesel pundits get you down, its an argument you will never win on a keyboard because your outnumbered, but you can hunt them down one at a time on the A roads. lol

Paul3446

So if speed is all about torque and not horsepower, why aren't F1 cars lower powered and torquey.

I suspect the people saying that their 350hp monsters that have been left for dead by 330Ds are simply in the wrong gear.

I'm not arguing that 330Ds can't keep up with Imprezas, but left for dead? If you floor a 350hp Impreza in 3rd gear at 70mph, there's not much on the road that will leave you for dead. And certainly not a 330D.

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

See my answer above.

Lets pin down what we are going to call; "left for dead" and then we can arrange a suitable showdown.

T123VOR

iTrader: (2)

I have both a 330d (albeit MSport touring so a bit heavier) and an STI and from my experience my scoob would leave my BM behind - but, as above, midrange (as with most diesels) it would compete.
If you're caught in the wrong gear going up a hill and the diesel was at optimum torque I reckon you could be left behind (until you caught up again!)

Paul3446

Exactly. If you're caught in the wrong gear, otherwise us Subaru drivers can relax again.

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

Standard or properly remapped? Standard ones arent particularly fast, we are talking about optimised ones here, well, at least I am.

martwrxsl

Next you'll be telling me that a 535d is quicker than an m5, because it's got more torque. the spread of torque over a greater range is where you get your ultimate performance. diesels don't have that range like petrols, end of story.

I'd call the new RS6 a performance car. 485lbs/ft from 1,000-6,000rpm or there abouts. diesels are great at what they do but a 330d mapped/standard is not going to leave a standard bugeye for dead.



I

ReggieMY99

My experience is that you always get in on boost before its too late, if you wait for the beamer to pass you and then go on boost, the bmw already has the momentum and its bye bye or you are going to struggle keeping up, remember these cars were built for autobahn race, imprezas are a different kettle of car, cant really compare them, awd against rwd, the beamer can put all its power to the ground

playing with an m5 some months ago, from standing starts and its too heavy although it got loads of bhp so its goodbye bmw until we get up at silly speeds, did him 4 times and then he would have no more of it, im running 280 approx

martwrxsl

He was playing with you. A new 500+bhp M5 would destroy an impreza with 280bhp at anything past 20mph. Now that would be a better comparision of left for dead than the OP.

Spooky Mulder

...but in the 'real' world the BMW auto diesel is always at optimum torque. By the time you had changed down and got on boost the BMW has passed you.

The reason why the F1 car does not need so much torque is that it does not need to accelerate out of corners as downforce (enabling lateral 4g) means it does not need to slow as much. It means that the F1 can stay in its peak power band.

They are also very light. Neither that level of downforce or lightness is very feasible on the road.

chrispy200+

iTrader: (2)

Not going to take anything away from the diesel bmw's, mate had a 535d which had been chipped and another mate that had a evo6 tme couldn't keep up with him pretty much anywhere, to be fair though the one in the 535d used to race caterhams and is a pretty good driver. Also if you read pistonheads there is nothing that can keep up with a chipped 335d.
As for the 5th gear show, surely as she is a pretty good driver that was helping a lot, as soon as they got onto a straight she said she couldn't get past the m3, was making most of the time up on the corners

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

LOL. Always the same arguments in these topics... so pointless, yet fun.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

In the other 330d thread (in other marque) I was going to explain the full reason why BHP figures don't look good on engines with low rev limits (using a Bentley Arnage T for an example).

But then I thought nobody would understand or try to argue fact and try to prove that peak BHP means everything, so I thought f** it and didn't bother

ReggieMY99

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieMY99
My experience is that you always get in on boost before its too late, if you wait for the beamer to pass you and then go on boost, the bmw already has the momentum and its bye bye or you are going to struggle keeping up, remember these cars were built for autobahn race, imprezas are a different kettle of car, cant really compare them, awd against rwd, the beamer can put all its power to the ground

playing with an m5 some months ago, from standing starts and its too heavy although it got loads of bhp so its goodbye bmw until we get up at silly speeds, did him 4 times and then he would have no more of it, im running 280 approx

He was playing with you. A new 500+bhp M5 would destroy an impreza with 280bhp at anything past 20mph. Now that would be a better comparision of left for dead than the OP.

so true, unfortunately you didnt care to read my post, 20 mph is hardly a standing start is it

big M5 he has 3 settings and he tried them all, always a car length in front of him, and he wasnt trying you say.. well why would he undertake in the buslane to get next to me at the lights for the first run he got whooped and he didnt like it at all, the fourth time i waved to him when he was next to me, didnt look too glad always a car length infront of him

the point was standing starts and and imprezas

330dan

...

jonny_693

iTrader: (5)

Is there much in it between a 330d and a 530d? A 5 must weigh a good 300kilos more?