NACRO

Loved mine but even modified it wasn't 'one of the fastest cars point to point on the Planet'.

stilover

Please explain why you think that. Not slating you, but would like to know why you think they're not one of the fastest point to point cars.

Most of the press think they are. They have the grip thanks to AWD and the speed thanks to 2 Turbos.

What's faster? Ferrari 360/430? Not on British B roads in damp conditions.

billythekid

As above - what did you not enjoy?

Hoppy

NACRO wrote: "Always another car on the horizon. Maybe the other buyer got caught up in the moment and did something foolish. Either way the longer you wait and look the cheaper the cars become."

True nacro. I need to remember that

But remaining detached and objective isn't easy when you've finally singled out a particular car, gone to see it, driven it, and found it to be as close to optimum as I'm likely to get.

I'm not a dealer looking to make a turn on a car, any car. I'm going to drive it every day for years. It has to be right. You put a lot of time and emotional energy into seeking out the right car. In my case, many internet hours and a few hundred miles. Sad but true

Then people like you come along and say Merc SL, or maybe a Maser. And I know what you mean (but you're wrong ). Then the other half of me says, like you, if I'm getting a 911, then make it a C2 manual and not a C4 auto! Oh ****. I'm doomed

Cheers,

Richard.

mamoon2

Stilover - Check this example out i've just found on autotrader Sales Detail

NACRO

A well modded high spec EVO would have mullered my 996, probably not as much fun but if you've driven any 911's you'll know they have a 'bobbly' feeling. I can't think of a better way to describe it. Given 100% commitment and attack I think ultimately a 996 turbo is a very, very fast car but as nobody except Rohrl and wannabees with a grave fixation drive like that most of the time they aren't 'one of the fastest point to point cars'. Think likely a R34 Skyline is quicker as well. Maybe even a well sorted Impreza as we're on scoobynet.

IMO the 996 Turbo isn't about being the 'fastest point to point car' but about being something that can deliver high performance driving whatever the weather while still offering comfort, style and the long legs to cross continents with ease.

There was nothing I didn't enjoy about it btw. Knocks the crap out of the 535D I'm schlepping round in at the moment.

Richard: enjoy the time and effort you're spending, it's like the run up to Christmas morning when you were a kid. Ultimately the most exciting part!

stilover

I take your point Nacro. However I was comparing standard cars. Yes an Evo is fast, but a 911 Turbo is in another league performance wise.

Bring modding into it, and yes there are faster cars than the Turbo.

NACRO

It's the package that's important when you consider any 911. It's a hard to beat combo which is perhaps what magazines are alluding to when they use crappy phrases like 'fastest car point to point'. Personally the fastest point to point car I've ever driven in the UK was a french registered 528i but that doesn't mean it's the 'ultimate driving machine'

If you want to talk standard then an EVO 400 is quicker IMO given a damp surface.

stilover

Nice car. Apart from the Grandfather gear box

Hoppy

It's not just about speed, is it. Two extremes in my recent experience - an FQ360 that was blindingly fast and very agile. And a Merc CL63 AMG (derestricted ) which was missile fast but utterly uninvolving. Like sitting on the train in first class. I want something inbetween and overall, I prefer driving my (slower) old Scoob to either. And now that prices have moved my way, I can try another permutation on my ideal package, eg a 911.

And this 911 I'm obsessing over is not even as quick as my Scoob. It's a bit heavier, and has a bit less power, which is a shame, but it's a whole new driving experience. Maybe when it comes to rebuild the engine, I could slip in some 3.8l parts

Know what you're saying and sure I'm enjoying the anticipation! I do hope you're wrong but I'm reminded of the saying "It is better to travel hopefully than to arrive." A bit like dating a new GF then (I imagine )

Richard.

PS

Stilover: "Nice car. Apart from the Grandfather gear box" Oi

Jer

I have a tip 996TT and drove both tip and manual. I live just outside Glasgow and spend alot of time in traffic. It was more down to the right car came up rather than tip or manual. I put a wanted advert on pistonheads and someone called me with a mint 996 tip with only 3200 miles on the clock. If you live in town and need to drive in traffic a lot go for the tip. Tips are faster 0 to 60.

GC8

Tiptronic and Savanah; theyre impossible to sell.

SPEN555

Reading threads like this put me right off porkers.

Another Porsche Boxster engine failure....

Hoppy

GC8, Tiptronics do sell. The car I was after was a Tipto and sold quickly. It was also very clean for a MY2000 car which I think is more important in the sub-£20k category. Agree about Savanah though! Looks like puke

Yeah, but the guy bought an 8/9 year-old car, presumably with 100k miles or so, without any warranty. He's a fool, and now mega-bitter at Porsche

This is a well known problem area with Porsches, and obviously more of a potential problem with high mileage. The fact that the guy also had TVRs on his wish list suggests he did not look into reliability issues too closely. And he's not heard of Vanos failures on M3s either?

Anybody who expects bullet-proof reliability with cars of this age/mileage, regardless of make, is fooling themselves. It is also very hard to check the intergrity of many mechanical components that show almost no signs of failure before it's too late. That's why you need a warranty, or a big discount on a private sale. High mileage Porsches are no worse than other makes, and better than most.

Richard.

HankScorpio

I think this is one area of the internet where things definitely get skewed.

It's not like every used Porsche bought before the internet was perfect

Hundreds of thousands made, tiny proportion of owners on places like piston heads, one says "blah blah", half a dozen say "me too" and it's suddenly a "well documented problem"

Maybe an exaggeration but car buying rules didn't change on the invention of bbs's - history, recalls done, looked after, mileage etc etc.

Hoppy

I think you're right Hank. Believe everything you read ont' web at your peril

I've been reading. In particular the very helpful and (very) lengthy advice on the Hartech website Porsche servicing, repairs, reconditioned wishbones and cars for sale - near Bolton, North West England. (major Porsche independent specialist dealer).

It sounds like a good used Porsche is a thoroughly good idea, but that there are plenty of rogue dealers and rogue cars about if you're unlucky or don't take precautions. Buyer beware and all that.

The ultimate condition of any Porsche over about five or six years has very little to do with mileage (clocking), or a full service history (easily forged or economical with the truth), or number of previous owners (irrelevant if the car has been looked after) or age (depends much more on how it's been used). And because older Porsches are plentiful and still fetch relatively good prices, the appeal to unscrupluous sellers is all the greater.

I guess that's all obvious stuff, but it's good to have it spelt out, in the knowledge that a good car can be driven for huge mileages providing you keep on top of service and replacement items. And that doesn't seem too hard or too expensive outside of the greedy official Porsche network. Luckily, I have a sound specialist workshop very near me - just got to find the right car. I've found a couple of new prospects just advertsied

Richard.

Timwinner

iTrader: (3)

I have been looking and driving a few too, here is my shallow font of knowledge.
996 pre april 99 prone to RMS failure. If its a low ish millage car check the history to see if this has been changed, If not then get it thoroughly checked out.
If its a higher millage car with no suggestion of RMS failure/replacement then its one of the good engines.

Strangely GT3's are good engines in 996 as they are based on the old 993 engine rather then the first gen water cooled.

993 is depreciation proof.
C2 or C4 it makes no difference to running cost, they both have pro's and cons.

If you can try to get an 00/01 onwards C4s. Its the one that seems to hold value and perform best.

If you can wait till feb time you might be able to pick up an early 997, they have revised the engine in these and ironed out most of the faults from the 996

Should you have enough time in your life read the following, It was written by a porsche geek so I cant take credit but it should assist you in your purchase:


Front bumper

Look in the air ducts at the front, and check the
radiators. Look for an accumulation of debris in the
corners, which can soak up water and rot the
radiators.

Unclip the front carpet trim (2 black plastic stud
nuts and 2 trim studs) and peel back the carpet. Look
for panel damage or replacement panels that might
indicate a front end impact. Note
that the sealant used at the factory on panel joints
is a light caramel colour.

Luggage Compartment

The C2 comes with an inflated space-saver spare wheel,
stored vertically in the front compartment. On C4
versions it is deflated -under the floor carpet, and
should come with a compressor to
inflate it. There should also be a jack and basic
toolkit. Make sure the toolkit contains a towing eye
and the locking wheel nut key.

Door Latches

The door latches on the ‘B’ pillar can move slightly,
causing the paint to crack and corrosion can set in. A
black plastic spacer was introduced to solve this
problem in 2000. Note that Porsche will
not rectify any rust in this area under the 10-year
anti-corrosion warranty.

Cabriolet Top

The rear plastic screen is prone to cracking across
the middle unless the ‘Boxster chop’ is performed
(while the top is half-way though it’s drop, run your
hand horizontally across the rear window to ensure an
even fold). A replacement plastic window will cost
approximately £250 and a replacement hood around £750
fitted (non-Porsche)

Rear Spoiler

The rear wing should automatically deploy at 75mph and
retract again at 37mph to aid cooling, and down-force.
It can also be activated by means of a switch on the
fuse box cover in the
driver’s footwell. Make sure the spoiler works
correctly. The rear wall is prone to splitting at the
folds, but a new wall can be fitted for around £80. If
the car has a fixed rear spoiler (eg GT3 bodykit,
Porsche Aerokit etc) the rear spoiler raising
mechanism is disabled.

Interior

Climate Control Make sure to check that the air-con
blasts freezing cold air at its
lowest setting. Air conditioning problems can be
expensive to rectify. Common faults are corroded
radiator matrices (c£500) or the filter/dryer canister
(c£150).

Doors & Windows

The doors should open and close smoothly, and the
windows should drop a few millimetres as you lift the
door handles. If the windows do not drop as you open
the doors, the culprit is likely to
be a micro-switch in the door switch assembly that may
need replacement (c£125).

Windscreen

The windscreen of all 996s are prone to delamination
(milky white effect) in the corner of the ‘A’ pillars
and bonnet. This can often be replaced courtesy of
your insurance company, subject to
paying the excess (c£50).

Ignition Switch

It is not uncommon for the ignition switch to fail.
The plastic barrel can crack, preventing the switch
from returning to its 1st position once the engine has
started. Also the contacts in the
switch can break, causing strange electrical faults.
(c£22 part cost).

Centre Console Storage Bin

The hinge on the console is prone to breaking, but
there is an easy and cheap solution which costs around
£18 in parts.Check on PCGB website or Renntech for
diagrams and a DIY.

Engine

Oil Pressure When hot:At least 1.0 bar at idle 4.0 to
5.0 at 4000+ rpm
Temperature When hot: slightly over the 80°C marker

Oil Filler Cap & Tube

Don’t be alarmed by a light coating of mayonnaise
coloured residue in the cap or tube. It is quite
common, and usually worse in cold weather, and if the
car has been used on short runs.

Coolant & Oil

Look for traces of oily residue in the cooling water.
This could be a sign of a leaking head gasket, or much
worse. Walk away from the car and don’t look back!
Also look at the oil on the dipstick. Any traces of
white foamy substance (water/oil emulsion) and you
should also start walking!


Coolant Expansion Tank

These are prone to cracking and pinholes. Look for
staining of the engine bay panels below the tank. Not
too expensive to replace at around £250.

Idle Should be a steady 680-700 rpm when warm. Some
996’s suffer from a slightly lumpy idle, particularly
when cold. A severely erratic idle could be caused by
a fault in a Variocam solenoid
(c£400), MAF sensor (c£150) or Ignition Coil Pack
(c£30 each)

Rear Main Oil Seal (many of you can fall asleep at
this point!)

This is a common problem with the M96 engine. It first
shows itself by a dampening of the area at the bottom
of the engine at the joint between the crankcase and
transmission.
In virtually ALL cases the worst that will happen will
be the odd drip of oil on the garage floor. Most
owners will wait until the clutch needs changing and
replace the seal at that time. Multiple
failures have been recorded, but they are rare.
Tiptronics appear to be less prone, but not immune, to
the problem. Cost when doing a clutch change is an
extra £20 or so, otherwise it is a
£300-400 job.In terms of numbers a survey conducted by
PCGB in 2004 for the Boxster (same
engine block as 996), 24% of respondents reported
failure(s). Although many iterations of the seal have
been introduced by Porsche, the problem has still not
been resolved even on the current 997 model.

Startup

Don’t be alarmed if there is a rattle at engine
startup from cold.This often happens before pressure
has built up in the hydraulic valve lifters. It should
disappear within 5 seconds or so.
Occasionally, you may see a puff of oil smoke from the
exhaust at startup. This is common, but should
disappear after about 10 seconds, and should only
happen infrequently, ie. Once in every
30-40 starts perhaps.

Transmissions

Manual Check for smooth operation and changes. Note
that when cold the change from first to second gear
can be slightly stiff, but this should disappear when
warmed up. Listen for noises when
accelerating and on a trailing throttle. All parts are
now available for manual transmissions, so they can be
repaired rather than replaced (as was the case until
December 2006).

Tiptronic Check for smooth changes (up and down) when
in automatic and tiptronic mode. Check both tip
switches on the steering wheel are working, and also
check the tiptronic display in the instrument cluster
operates correctly. At present, internal transmission
parts
are not available from Porsche, but some independent
specialists can source them and repair rather than
replace the transmission.Tiptronic transmission has
proved to be very reliable.

Running Gear

Suspension A clonking sound when driving slowly over
bumps may be heard. This usually means a worn
anti-roll-bar drop-link (c£30 each). Creaking sounds
often indicate a worn lower suspension control
arm (c£150 each). Brakes The brake disks are prone to
corrosion, particularly the inside faces of the rear
discs. It is surprising how bad they can get without
being able to feel anything unusual through the brake
pedal. (c£120/pair plus fitting)

Tyres

Tyres should be worn evenly across the tread. Tyres
should be of matching brand across axle (preferably
all four corners) and should all be of equal ‘N’
rating. Uneven wear suggests geometry
problems (c£150-250 for a 4-wheel alignment). Tyres –
17inch F/R cost from £110/£130, and the optional
18inch F/R cost from £120/£180.

Documentation

VIN Number

The VIN (Vehicle Identification Number) is located in
three places: behind the base of the windscreen on the
passenger side, on the driver side door-catch panel
and on the front bulkhead in the luggage compartment
to the left of the battery. Do a search for
'Scouser's' VIn decoder on Renntech.

VIL Number

The VIL (Vehicle Identification Label) can be found in
2 places: A white sticker under the bonnet and a white
sticker found in the‘Guarantee and Maintenance’
booklet. The country code will
signify for which market the car was made, and C16
signifies the UK. A missing VIL under the bonnet could
suggest the car was involved in an accident requiring
the bonnet to be replaced. A missing VIL from the
‘Guarantee and Maintenance’ booklet could suggest a
duplicate booklet and/or a personal import.

Service History

A full service history is very important when
considering a 996. Expect the car to be serviced at an
OPC for the first 2-3 years (the warranty runs for 2
years), thereafter any well known independent
will do. The 996 needs to be serviced every year or
12,000 miles for the cars you are considering.
YOu don't need to have them serviced at an OPC to
maintain the warranty.


Thats pretty much most of it. As advised I'd take the
111 inspection and get the warranty for peace of mind.
It includes Europe Wide assist, and has no excess.

good luck

Hoppy

Thanks Tim. Very helpful stuff. But what I would say is that this list makes no mention of Intermediate Shaft failure which appears to be nightmare #1 with old Porsches. It is hard to detect and does major damage, but while Porsche will replace the engine at vast expense for their own good reasons (?) it can be a lot less painful to repair the motor at an independent.

Gotta add also that the guy whose Boxter blew up with IS failure in the link above had a 111 Point Check that didn't save him. Frankly, it seems to be a bit of an art picking a good used Porsche - so much can happen in ten years/100k miles. But good ones are there to be had. On reflection, I'm not sure that I dare buy private - I need some warranty.

RMS failure doesn't bother me. A few (more) oil leaks on the drive are no problem.

I think I'll be waiting until the New Year now, as my op is due in a couple of weeks.

Cheers,

Richard.

billythekid

Just something to be aware of, Porsche GB have changed their warranty rules. For cars between 2 and 9 years old you need to have the car serviced by Porsche only, they wont accept indi stamps at the warranty check.

Also, they will no longer cover cars with modifications. This includes simple things like an aftermarket head unit.

I think this has been in place since about september ish. There have been quite a few threads on PH etc about this.

As such, I would only really look to buy a used car from an OPC. You can still get some good deals and it will make it a lot easier to get the extended warranty.

The other thing to remember is not having the warranty is a very bad idea, a simple engine re-build could set you back 10 grand. Parts like pistons and con rods, cams etc are mega mega money.

Hoppy

btk, all info very welcome, thank you, but I disagree with a lot of what you're saying.

Porsche marketing is different, kind of unique and certainly clever. Their attitude to service underpins the whole business model in that it is designed to maintain all Porsche car values in an unusual way for a volume maker. It is sold as a customer benefit but it's actually there to preserve their own business primarily, not punters' cars.

Of course this is what every business is really doing, so I guess we shouldn't be too surprised. OPC servicing has got some kind of aura about it, which means that cars without OPC service stamps are devalued, which forces people to go to OPCs, which perpetuates the myth. Not many brands have this kind of hold over customers. Clever trick if you can do it.

Recent changes to warrany rules suggest (to me) that people are beginning to question Porsche service value for money. And Porsche is VERY keen to maintain its hard-won position, so they are fighting back with measures that are designed more to diss the independents and benefit Porsche, rather than benefit customers. To disallow cars simply because they have indi service records is just as silly as banning a car that has an aftermarket exhaust or head unit. (Are you serious about the head unit? Friggin daft.)

I very much doubt that I'll be buying a car from an OPC, or having it serviced there. I am certainly not saying that others should not buy from them - just for me, I am buying and running on a very tight budget and I can't do it through OPCs.

I know there are risks but I either take them, or don't get a 911. Simple as that. For example, the cheapest 911 available from any OPC right now is £22k. Ten days ago that figure was £29k, but it's still too high for me.

Those horrific stories of replacement engine costs are another OPC invention IMHO. Even if you lunch an engine from Intermdiate Shaft failure (which ends up with pistons meeting valves a little out of sync ) the parts are unlikely to reach £2k and with indi labour at half or less than OPCs, the whole job is £4-5k all in. That's pretty horrific, but not £10k catastrophic.

It will be interesting to see how long Porsche can maintain their, erm, 'stance'. Most of the older cars I've looked at have some recent indi service stamps, which suggests that when Porsche eventually turns its back on customers and effectively shuts them out, they turn to more cost-effective solutions.

BR,

Richard.

CharlesW

In addition to Hartech's excellent service/warranty scheme, some of the other reputable independent Porsche dealers seem to getting together their own warranty schemes as they can no longer point customers towards Porsche own extended warranty.

RSJ warranty announcement

Hoppy

That's an interesting link CW. I've had a look. Thanks

As you say, the forward thinking independents see things differently to OPCs and view warrany on older cars as a good business opportunity. The Hartech scheme is designed to generate regular cash flow for their service business (it says so on their website) and RJS's scheme is only available on cars sold by them, which is a shame. I've just called them and this is still the case, as the scheme is primarily there to help them shift cars (that's what they just told me) but they've got nothing in my price range ATM

It will be interesting to see how this pans out. With Porsche now forcing owners of older cars to go to independents for service, they could be calling their own bluff.

Richard.

billythekid

Hm, ok, so you are on a budget, fair enough. But you could end up with some serious bills, I am speaking from experiance after blowing the gearbox on my boxster...

I still highly advise you get a warranty, if not via an OPC then via a 3rd party - Hartech are very good but as above its going to cost you.

Re the head unit, I am 100% serious! It happend at an OPC, customer took car in for some minor work - they saw the head unit and refused to touch the car. The thread is on PH.

DaveMiddleton

Agree entirely.
My 996TT is also Tiptronic (first time in 6 911's) and I really enjoy it on today's more crowded roads. I recently had it Revo re-mapped to 505bhp and it is really missile fast (at ANY speed, the acceleration is awesome). Have also had modiified Evos, modified R34 V Spec, RS4, modified RS6 etc etc and the 911TT is just in a different performance league cross country with the possible exception of the Skyline. But, when is enough, enough. It would need someone with a lot of ability and more importantly bravery to reach and maintain the speeds necessary to better a well enough driven 911TT ( the driver of which, is ensconsed in surrroundings, not dreamed of in an R34, I am afraid.)
Remember, even at 500BHP plus, these TT's are understressed and very reliable.

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

Is that not illegal? I thought the law had changed some time ago to force manufacuturers to validate warrenty as long as geniune or approved parts are used and the servicing is within schedule.

5t.

Matteeboy

Nothing fails to make me go green more than Dave Middletons car list...

kryten

I've been looking for a while and actively for a couple of months, though I'm aiming at a GT3.

The warranty change has forced older cars outside the main dealer network completely - not sure that was the intention as it seems to have also been sending 3/4 year old cars away but it does mean the 'cast iron' porsche warranty isn't available on as many cars now.

Dealers seem variable - some happy to move (nearly got one from an OPC for 5k off asking) and others not - one I drove have taken 6k off screen price and not even bothered to call me! Most private sellers seem to be in dreamland and totally unaware of how far down the car market has moved recently!

A couple of useful links:

Checkout the VIN:
Scouser's Porsche VIN Decoder

Find out the real options the car had:
Porsche Option Decoder

Bills unless there's a major failure don't seem to be that scary - was eyeing up a DB9 at the weekend only to be told its next service (due in Feb) would cost around 3.5k!!!

billythekid

That only applies to the Pan EU warranty - i.e when the car is first sold new in the EU. Porsche only warranty their cars for 2 years, once this time is up you start another agreement which falls outside this EU law. Its basically a personal contract between you and the OPC. Break the rules of the contract and you have no warranty.

That said, it is a good warranty now and includes a lot of stuff that used to be excluded an as a bonus you can now buy it in blocks of 24 months at a time.

GT3 - NICE. 996 or 7?

kryten

Been looking at 996s mainly - however, there are lots of silver ones (which i can't stand), a few with history etc etc so nothing bought as yet.

Started eyeing up 997s though given the recent downward pressure on the prices - they all seem to be white though!