Lot of interesting points Olly.

I must say that the separation of that singularity into the four dimensions seems like a bit of a miracle to me! Seriously though. the formation of the universe is quite amazing and the thought of that original piece of energy becoming all that content of the universe and the formation of the elements in the periodic table etc. is pretty difficult to encompass.

Well they say that He sent this other chap down to the earth known as his son to save the world by his example, and as part of Him above he had these powers to perform the miracles mentioned. So the chap above would be reasonably hot stuff in the powers dept.

When it comes to the Atheism and Agnosticism bit, maybe I should have said "principles"

If you are lucky enough to have good parents who work at bringing you up properly then you are lucky these days as we see all the time. Still does not mean that it is a bad thing to have the sorts of standards which are set by a religious unpbringing to give you the strength to maintain them and to "hang your hat on" too. There was a far bigger proportion of "good living" people when this was still on the whole a god fearing country. I have also known people with bad parents who still were just as good as any at heart.

If people really do feel that religion has deceived them, then they are of course still free to come to their own conclusions about life, while we are still a free(ish) country of course!

Les

 

Have watched this thread for a while without comment - here's my tuppence.

The problem I have with the big bang theory is that I have never witnessed a big bang that results in any sort of order. I have encountered several big bangs at close quarters thanks to various terrorist groups, none of which resulted in anything resembling order. Perhaps those bangs just weren't big enough.

Regarding God's existance, well I haven't seen him nor met him, that doesn't prove to me he doesn't exist. I have never seen the wind, only the effects of the wind, in the same way I have never seen God, but have witnessed the effects that a belief in him have had on the lives of individuals.

I have read and studied the old and new testaments in some depth, I dont claim to understand everything that is in there, but having approached it with an open mind I found their content truely fascinating and relevant.

There will always be those who deny Gods existance, groups of people have held that view since biblical times. What I cant quite understand is why anyone feels threatend by Gods existance.

For me personally I can not look out of my window and accept that the miracles of nature I see on a daily basis came about though a big bang.

 

The big bang is a bit of a gash name really for a rapid expansion of space/time/energy from absolutely nothing.

Its also been quite a while since this happened and gravity has a habit of sorting things out nicely given enough time. Thats what is responsible for nearly every level of order knocking around thesedays.

 

You can't create something out of nothing.

 

Tell that to my wife

Geezer

 

Those sort of explosions really aren't the same thing as the BB, you can't possibly compare the two.

That again is quite different. You say you have seen the effects that a belief in God has. That is not the same as the effect that God hinmself would have. Wind is a tangible thing. God certainly is not.

So you read all the bigotry, rape, murder, slavery then? And you're ok with that? I'd be interested to know what in there is relevant?

I don't feel threatened buy something I don't think exists. There's nothing wrong with questioning things though is there?


But you are prepared to believe they came about because of something without a shred of evidence..........

Geezer

 

 

Ah Pete, thanks for brightening up my monday morning.

That is painfully true, as well as extrememly funny!

Geezer

 

I don't necessarily agree with the big bang either, although there seems to be a fair bit pointing towards that theory being as good as anything so far. I keep an open mind.

As Einstein (the one on SN ) says, you can't start it all with nothing. Either a large piece of energy or some kind of highly concentrated matter. But where did it come from? We could discuss that for hours!

Les

 

No it is not the legnth of a day an night changes throughout the seasons and regions of the world humans have addapted differently to deal with these changes.

Pysics

NO they don't remember that in an infinate universe operating on an infinate time scale every single event however improbable will happen.

I do not really see how believing in god would make me appreciate what I have more and I am sure it would give me less understanding not more of life.

ps if there is a god when I see him I will kick him square in the ***** the sick F**K

 

Depending on your stance on string theory, oh yes you can. Sorry if that's inconvenient.

 

It astounds me that 3 determined atheists (ollyk, geezer, markgt) can know so much detail about the subject of religion, to the extent that they know the scriptures!

I mean, I don't believe in god as it's clearly illogical to me, but then I have the same dismissive thoughts about Santa and fairies, (my opinion is that if you are too stupid or afraid or brainwashed so that you believe in god then thats your loss, but if it makes you happy then whatever..)

I'm sure you guys would feel silly arguing the toss about whether santa has a red hat or not and visiting specialist pro and anti santa websites to argue about it, yet you carry on in that vein here.

perhaps you're jus as bad as the pro religious born again christians trying to force your non beliefs on people.

 

sums it up for me...

 

it's the fact that Santa and fairies are equally ridiculous that makes the argument so interesting!

I'm not trying to force beliefs onto anyone, I'm just asking questions. As someone who doesn't believe either, doesn't it fascinate you how people can so completely believe something so utterly baseless?

The discussion, argument, whatever you want to call it just comes from that fascination. Well, it does for me anyway.

Geezer

 

It's quite simple really. People of a religious bent say things like "You just need to read the bible and you'd understand". Well I did read the bible and I still don't understand, so I've kept looking and read other surrounding material, it's all about having an open mind. I know what my current thoughts are on the subject, but my mind is open to the possibility I am wrong if I could just find the evidence. That's a rather different perspective than you'll find from the believers.

 

The string theory is just that, a theory. It's not conclusive proof of anything, not till they get this Hadron thing going.

 

Shame on you, ERA. In Science, there is no such thing as conclusive proof. Also, a theory is not some vague confection that someone pulls out of the air - it is a coherent and consistent explanation of a group of facts; furthermore, it makes testable predictions which, if shown to be correct by further experimentation, strengthens its case.

 

If there is no God, how would you explain the existance of emotions and feelings?

Especially guilt!? How do you explain guilt?

All those who believe in scientific theory etc but not God, science is simply, the behavoiur of something that has been analysed, then a theory has been made to help people underdstand this behaviour.../suited to the behavoiur of a certain phenomena etc etc...

Ive been thinking a lot in this thread, forget all the comments about religion, this thread is about whether there is a God or not.... you dont need religion to believe in God. I believe in God and Evolution, and that God created this earth/universe.

When I or someone else answered "God" as an explanation to something, but people reject that, in the same way, people who answer "science" or "physics"..... Where did science come from? Who decided that atoms with certain amounts of electrons will join with other atoms with certain amounts of electrons, and all that neutron and proton malarky...

Where did the wind come from? Where does gravity come from? Gravity has a explanation, but where did it come from? Why dont objects fly off like on the moon, why does the earth have an atmosphere around it? Sure you can explain what the atmosphere is made of, and its role, by using science, but what decided that there should even be an atmosphere there?

When those who doubt in God, can actually explain to me where everything came from in the first place, then I'll listen to your reasons for there not being a God..... until then.... well

Did you see the big bang when it happened? Have there been any other big bangs which you can use to support your theory?

As for the original statement "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life".... Well, I think there is a God, but Im not worried.... I enjoy life But knowing that there is a God looking after/over/at me, it helps me live a good and decent life. It stops me from doing bad things to people, it makes me think about my actions before I do them. It gives me someone to talk to when Im in trouble, when I pray. It gives me hope. I guess some people dont need a God, and think they can get through life fine by themselves.... and you have a free will to do that. Some believe that smoking helps them relax, some believe that smoking gives them cancer, and they will die......

 

Where does wind come from? The difference between high and low pressure systems causes an outflow of air from one t' other, iirc...

djmisio85 - You seem to take anything you don't understand and ascribe it to some great being, then fold your arms and say to a bunch of Subaru owners: "well if you can't explain it, then I'm right". Be serious for a minute - Stephen Hawking can't explain everything to your satisfaction. What you're displaying I don't see as any different to those who, having their crops fail 5,000 years ago, decide to sacrifice a human being in the belief that it would then rain the next day... The Incas couldn't explain wind either...

Also, is it really only a belief in God that stops you doing bad things to people? I don't believe in God, don't do bad things to people, but if you need it to behave then I'm all for it in your case...

 

and where does that initial difference in air pressure come from?
Im not saying that im right, just saying, that if I cant use "God" as an explanation for many things, the saying "science" is just as bad....

Its a belief in God, and a way of showing respect to God by looking after what I have been given, ie my surrounding and the people and objects around me. If I do a bad thing, then I fear what God might bring upon me.... but when Im living a daily life, I dont live in fear...

 

Well you saved me the trouble

 

Okay, but I prefer Science because from where I'm sitting it's doing a good job of peeling away the layers of religion that for the last few thousand years have relied on our ignorance to steer us towards god, and (purely hypothetically, of course ) CONTROL!

I appreciate the committed god believer will always be able to ask yet another question (e.g. 'why didn't Jesus mention dinosaurs in the bible?'... "Ahhh, but how do you know god didn't put the fossils in the ground?" etc etc. but I find this is ultimately like talking to your young child when they keep on asking "why?". You draw the line somewhere and say the balance of probabilities the science explanation is the more believable. The same line drawing exercise that, say, a court adopts when convicting a murderer whose fingerprints are on the weapon, whose dna is on the victim ("ahh, but how do you know god didn't put the dna there?" As I said, even Stephen Hawking can't explain everything to the satisfaction of the committed god believer.

 

Why does something have to control it all? When you pour milk in to your tea or coffee and it mixes, do you think god is doing that or is simply down to convexion currents caused by the differences in temperature between the water at the top and bottom of the mug?

 

Heat from the sun warms the air unevenly and generates convextion currents. Pour some boiling water in a glass and then put a couple of drops of ribena or something in the top (I do mean drops) and watch those currents in action. This stuff is taught to 9 year olds in science class.

Notice we haven't once just said "science" and stopped at that point, we provide a more detailed explanation of what scientists have observed and explained. You then question part of that and we explain in yet more detail. You say "God", where your next level of explanation? Please explain how god was created, are there many gods? What was there before the first god?

I find it rather sad that you need fear of a god to make you act responsibly.

 

Occam's razor!

 

Ill have to read that in my lunchbreak, if you don't mind, OllyK

 

and what created these convection currents? what decides how it mixes? what youre telling me is the scientific explanation of how it mixes....not where the convection current came from...sure, it arises due to a change in temperature, again, science, but why does a lower temperature mixing with a higher temperature, cause a convection current? Why doesnt it just cause a medium temperature with no movement?

 

Christ on a bike!

If people spent a little less time on their bibles, and a little more time on Wikipedia...

 

I find rather sad that you don't understand where Im coming from.... Whether it be God, whether it be a consequence of science, its not the God i fear, but the result of what may happen. If I kill someone, rather than fearing what God might do to me, I fear that I may go to prison, a human action... of being arrested....

If people dont fear the consequences of bad things, then they will carry on doing bad things. Just like when you run a race, you warm up, beacause you dont want to strain a muscle, and in effect, "not wanting" a strained muscle, is a "fear" of getting a strained muscle...

Where did God come from? I cant answer that, and nor can you, all I can say, is I believe that God has always been here from the start of time...

 

Don't you realise that this line of questioning ultimately and logically must lead you to the same question, "what created God?".

If you can't see that, then you are an idiot, sorry.

Geezer