Talk about generalising the entire catholic community

I decide who I marry, I map out my life, and dying is up to how you lead your life. I know that God is looking over me, and if I respect what God has given me (ie the earth, friends and a life) then God will in return look after me.

You think we all dont have a free will? God controls every move we make? So you think God would intentionally create murderers and drug abusers? I dont think so mate. I can leave my house today, go shopping, and come back home. OR I can leave my house today, go shopping, buy a knife, kill a few people on the way home, then go to bed..... I guarantee you I can do that. Thats called free will mate We make decisions in our life every second of our life, thats also called free will. You can choose to call me names, or choose to shut up..... free will

God gave us a life, so in return we should respect it. We dont have to be preachers, just good human beings

Its funny how most people will go along with what scientists have said, without actually going and checking if these scientists facts are correct.... you can only believe what you have been taught.

Why do people then reject God, even though we have been taught about God....

What is your opinion about Jesus? Sent to earth, born from a virgin, healed and helped many people through performing miracles...

God sent his only son Jesus, to give us a taste of his power, then from that, we have to develop a little faith... If you believe a scientist about his findings, then why dont you beleive an apostle, and their knowledge about God and Jesus?

Why was Jesus on earth 2000 years ago, not now? To see if we humans have any faith. If we had a miracle performed for us everyday, most people would not be impressed and would think that its just normal...

As MOK79 said, there are many blind people, who do not see the work of God, as mentioned, that bad on this earth is only due to us....

 

What really is the point in discussions like this? For a while, they are interesting, throw about some interesting comments and more importantly, opinions, but as usual before long the insults start coming out. I'm not for censoring discussions or saying certain things shouldn't be talked about, but regardless of personal feeling, is it so hard to be at least a bit polite?

Unless something comes along to either confirm or absolutely disprove the existance of a higher power, then there will always be people who believe in something, at times because it forced on them, but also through their own choice and for their own personal reasons. This thread alone shows both, those who have found faith, later in life, and those who have dismissed it, despite been brought up, in some sort of religious setting. It's not always about being brainwashed, either way.

Personally, whether some find it loopy or whatever, if someone has faith, let them be. Generally it causes no harm to anyone else, what someone elses convictions are. Quite often, you wouldn't even know what someone else believed. If having faith gives meaning, explaination or comfort to another, then no matter what your own feelings are, what really is the problem? It 'explains' things to some, that many of us (until, if ever, science gives us an answer to) can't. Things happen to some, that can't be explained as yet, and if some, find that putting it down to a god, helps them, then I feel it's their choice, and fair play, just as those who have no faith will just think it's 'one of them things', that's their choice, and again, fair play.

Even if faith is just like a comfort blanket, then so what, if it helps a person get by, again what is the problem with that? It's their choice, as much as a non believer has the right to dismiss all of that.

I just personally feel, live and let live. Get on with your own life how you see fit, hopefully (believer or not) without hurting others, and chill out about what other people think. It's generally people without faith who start these threads, and go on a merry old rant about what others think, which is more madness to me, than the notion of believing in something which may well not exist. Generally non believers are uneffected by those who are, and I struggle to understand why they will have a go at the first opportunity.

I hope I made some sense there. Now questioning religion, is another matter, but I think we should all accept some have faith, some don't and for now, there are no real answers to that, either way.

 

I see you as a very deluded person .

 

OK this is how I see it.

I think there is sufficient data now to accept that there are literally untold billions of galaxies/planetary systems in the known universe .There maybe an infinite number of universes too.-The jury is still out on that one. Our earth is just one of possibly of an infinite number of planetary bodies that supports some sort of life and most probably intelligent life on a large number on these alien worlds.
Do all you believers out there expect religion to have evolved into what we have here on earth?
I suspect not and certainly not Christianity , Islam , etc etc
The religions here are earth bound , brought about by thousands of years of fear and superstition.

 

Here I don't bat for the other side
Yeah I suppose it would be a bit of a bugger, but I'm willing to take a chance.
Same for the non-believers surely. Be a bit of a bugger if when they died all they needed to have to get in was a little belief in GOD.

 

Well thats how you see it.

I think you're very Deluded

 

Because we have free will given to us,allegedly,by God.

 

Which of course, is completely incompatible with the notion of an omnipotent omniscient god.

 

You are a scary delusional individual mate, you and your ilk just change the goal posts when science proves your Bronze Age myths completely wrong; that’s one advantage religion has over non belief in a deity, it can morph in to anything to suit it needs. You believe that god has a guiding hand in your life; then you can’t have free will as he/she makes choices for you. The bible says god is all knowing, omniscient and omnipotent which for the stupid means he knows everything you think or do before you do it. Therefore free will does not exist and cannot exist. The above is in the good book but I’m sure you can twist it to what ever suits your twisted logic. You are a cherry picker, pure and simple.

Jesus wasn’t on earth 2000 years ago mate it’s just a story to frighten people to worship a Bronze Age cult. The Old Testament is a hideous vile book that is an insult to human intelligence. The people of the time were losing interest in the vile ethnic cleanser of a god, so they invented the New Testament. The authors of the New Testament invented Jesus and his story from other Middle Eastern myths from the epoch. Remember it’s easier to catch flies with honey than with vinegar!

The most important guy to ever live in history, except history neglects to mention anything about him. Should we really worship a guy who tells you to cut off a limb or gouge an eye out for looking at the opposite sex? Or a man who curses a fig tree for not baring any fruit? “I am here to enforce my father’s law not to change it”, so Jesus has no problem with murdering people for adultery, murdering gays, murdering people for working on a Sunday, murdering your child for answering back, treating women like animals, ethnic cleansing etc. This behaviour in today’s society would have him in a mental institution as somebody who is criminally insane.

Jesus also must have been a liar; he says that the second coming will be within the lifetime of his disciples. This quite clearly is not true and a lie as 2000 years later there’s still no sign of him. However I’m sure you can twist and contort those passages to suit your needs. “Its not meant to be taken literally, it’s just a metaphor” I hear you cry.

I could go on all day poking the ludicrous holes in both the old and new testaments but I really must get on with some work.

As for been rude, why should I show respect to religion? I wouldn’t respect somebody who believed in Jedi’s or communist daffodils, for me there all just as insane.

 

Not asking you to show respect to religion. But why wouldn't you have respect for a fellow human being, just because their beliefs differ ??? That is what is frustrating Mark.

Its just common courtersy to show respect to people. Thats how I have been raised by my family. You obviously haven't and hence why so many people these days have no respect for anyone or anything........... Nothing to do with religion..........

 

That is true. However, the bible is a single, unverifiable source. It simply does not stand up to any sort of scrutiny. Indeed, it is proven to be historically inaccurate.

I may believe what I read in Scientific American, for example, but if I wish, I can cross reference it to other publications or actually do the research myself to reach (hopefully!) the same conclusion.

You cannot do this with the Bible at all.

Because they finally realise what a hideous, controlling and thoroughly morally corrupt piece of literature/teaching it is?

Also, I would reject any current scientific theory if it were proved wrong. Now that's free will........

Well, for starters, that's a mis-translaion. Originally it says born of a maiden. However, there are enough 'faith healers' around nowadays that are proved to be charlatans to show that Jesus, had he ever existed, could have fooled people quite easily. We are not exactly talking about a sophisticated society here!

I he had done something truly miraculous, you may have a case. His tricks are no better than any modern illusionist's.

See again my reply about verifiable information. The new testament was written at least 75 years after the time of Christ, up until about 200 years after. Hardly contemporary now is it? There wouldn't even have been any people alive to interview!

Chinese whispers doesn't even begin to describe the embellishment that would have gone on inthe effort to get your new cult accepted!

Secondly, if you believe Jesus walked the earth and was the son fo God, then why did he lie to you? As already mentioned, he didn't have a second coming, but he could have been unexpectedly delayed by a hot angel in heaven, so we'll forgive hin that one

More importantly, it says in the new testament that if you truly believe in Jesus, you will get whatever you pray for. I'm not talking about good health here, or something intangible, but it clearly states in Matthew 17:20

• For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

or Mathew 21:21

• I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

or Mark 11:24

• Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

or John 14

• "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

or Matthew 18:19

• Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

So, it's fairly unequivocal then, and if you believe in Jesus, and that he was the son of God, then he would never lie to you. But, prayer is demonstrably untrue, so he has lied to you. Could it not be possible that he has also lied about being the son of God? Or anything at all?

This man's word isn't worth the papyrus it was scribbled on!

2000 years ago, there were plenty of people who were hailed as being this and that, because they were an uneducated and superstitious society who didn't know how anything worked.

'There are none so blind as those who will not see' pretty much applies to anyone who does not see the huge holes in the Bible and Christianity itself.

Geezer

 

As you don’t know me from Adam I'd say your remark is way off the mark. I am a decent human being, never been in trouble with the police, worked since the age of 16 and was brought up very well by my parents whom I love. My parents however didn’t in-doctorate me into a religion like so many other millions of parents throughout the world. They let me grow up and make my own mind up. So I looked at religion, read the bible from cover to cover twice and come to the decision that the both books are the work of very superstitious Bronze Age humans (not very nice ones at that) that needed a man or woman in the sky to tell them why the sun came up in the morning. No different from the Greeks that believed Zeus and his fellow gods lived on top of mount Olympus and the Nordic gods of the epoch.

Now I have no children of my own, as my wife and I have no need for them in our relationship. However my wife and I sponsor several children throughout the most impoverished regions of this earth. These poor suffering children come from very devote religious countries such as Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Brazil etc. I don't do this so I can gain points to sit beside an imaginary character after I'm dead. I do it because I care and have compassion for human beings that suffer. This empathy and need to help my fellow human being does not come from any Bronze Age book or hockey pokey religion.

You feel that I should respect you because of your religion and tip toe around your delusional thoughts. If you talk to me about is a Porsche Cayman S faster than a STI PPP then I’ll respect your view as we are talking about something real. Religion isn’t, so therefore I can’t and won’t show you any respect in that regard.

Sorry!

 

I think you are wasting your time mate. As you and I know the bible is one big contradiction and hideously historically incorrect. "Don’t you know it’s not meant to be taken literally, its just a metaphor". A metaphor for what I ask!!!!

Crazy

 

All I am saying Mark is you have no right to bad mouth me the way you have just because I have a belief in something you don't. That it dis-respectful.
An just for the record I didn't say your parents bought you up badly or that you are a horrible person or that they are either. I wouldn't, I have respect. And also my parents didn't bring me up in a religious upbringing, like I have said before, this is a new Journey for me.

I think you should show respect to everyone unless they have done something awful. I would not, for example, have respect for a paedophile.

 

Absolutely, but I'd only have to do some work otherwise

Geezer

 

Looking from it from the other side. Those of you that don't believe in God if you are married did you have the wedding in a church? Are your children christened?

We didn't have a church wedding as neither of us believe in anything after death. There was nothing that I recall before I was born so why should there be anything after I die? I also declined being a Godparent for a friend (which didn't go down well!) as I wasn't prepared to stand up in a church and say I would teach the child the way of God, when I knew I wouldn't. I thought doing either of these would have been hypocritical and disrespectful towards those that do believe, so I said no.

 

Flaps, you are so right. Before I became a Christian I use to think exactly like that. Why would I have my children christened why would I get married in a church (although i did) etc etc....... My kids are still to be christined which is in the pipe line.
But so many non-believers still do as you have said and see nothing wrong with it. Its kind of like Christmas (although not so much these days) but the whole point was to celebrate the birth of Christ.
And yet you have the "non-believers" celebrating it and (as much as they say they don't they are, by giving presents etc) then have the cheek to then tell the believers your all deluded and weird and get a life

I have got to stop coming to this tread and start to do some work

 

But was Christ born on the 25th December?
i thought it was a pagan or Roman festival which were celebrated long before JC was born.

 

I wouldn't (indeed didn't) get married in a church, and neither of my children are christened.

However, I am Godfather to two of my firends children, but I don't see that as hypocritical. They know my stance on God, but they asked be to be a god parent because as far as they were concerned it just mean that I would be someone who would help if anything happened to them. I respected that and agreed, I see nothing hypocritical in that at all.

OK, I stood up in church and swore something that I obviously wasn't going to do, buy seeing as the bible if full of lies I didn't really feel any guilt.......

Geezer

 

But does that really matter. If it was on the 25th June what would it matter.
We had a dog that we use to celebrate his birthday (sad I know) on the 15th March cause we had no idea when his birthday was but for some reason (can't remember why) we picked the date................

 

Well, if you believe he was born at all, the bible points to a time in September. 25th December was decided as his birthday by the Council of Nicaea IIRC to allow pagans to adopt Christianity more easliy.

Geezer

 

See, you're setting your own artbitary limits now! Most people work on the basis that they don't trust a stranger and will respect a person once it has been earnt. That doesn't mean you have to be rude in to the bargain.

Religion deserves no more special deference than the belief in Santa or Faries, if you want to be taken seriously on the subject, present the evidence.

 

I have really got to start reading the Bible again.

 

Hang on, are you really trying to tell us that someone who was as important as Jesus Christ, who so threatened the Jews they had him killed, who entered Jerusalem as a king, had thousand of followers, really didn't have his birthday accurately recorded?

Hell, he had three kings come to visit his birth!

It' not like they are saying they can't remember the exact date, can't even get the month right.

Or, perhaps, it just isn't true at all........

Geezer

 

Not really sad as the our cats get birthday and xmas treats so no need for the rude smilie.
My point is that Christianity 'forced' itself onto another religions celebration date.

 

I said nothing of Trust I said respect.........
There are very few people I trust fully. Just because I don't trust someone doesn't mean I have no respect for them.

You know, of all Olly, we can't....... And if there was any slightest proof it would be disagreed with or made a joke of.

 

Nice example of the child being forced to accept your religion! Teach them about ALL faiths, hindu, muslim, taoism, buddhism and christianity. Also explain that many people don't believe in any of them. Then let them get themselves baptised at 18 if they so wish.

No, it originated as the pagan festival of winter. The Christians adopted it in an effort to attract pagans. Easter is the spring pagan festival. Are you not embarrased that there are atheists that know your religion better than you?

And you have Christians celabrating a pagan festival because they don't know the origins of their own religion - the irony huh?

 

Perhaps

 

I know, and as you pointed out, you trust few people, in reality most people have to earn respect, it isn't a given. Civility or not being rude is a different thing, IMO.

If there was the slightest proof, the world would be a very different place.

 

[quote=OllyK;] Are you not embarrased that there are atheists that know your religion better than you?
quote]

Actually Olly sometimes I am . But then I think, "but am I". I don't know the religion inside out but thats not important to me at the moment. It does amaze me how people are able to reel off verses and psalms all the time and reference the bible. But I can't, I have my faith because of other reasons. Maybe i'm not classed as a Christian maybe I have developed my own relationship Mokstian But as far as i'm concerned I am a christian I feel I have a relationship with him I feel things have happened to me because of this.

Like I have said I like to keep it simple.