There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life
Scooby Regular
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,055
Likes: 0
From: Bucks
OK, so you opened the bible on a verse connected to pregnancy? That's one od those "whoa!" moments, we all have them. Pretty interesting arent' they?
However, have you considered all the times you have opened the bible to a page utterly unconnected to what you had been thinking about? It's like when someone you were thinking of suddenly rings you. Wow! But, more often than not, they don't ring, when you think of of them, or they ring when you are thinking of something else. It really isn't very mystifying at all.
As for your sister, I'm glad that she finally managed to have a baby. However, we too have suffered a miscarriage, and the thoughts of not wanting to do it again and then actually doing it again are very common. It's inherent in us to procreate, the disappointment of a miscarriage is soon replaced by the urge to try again.
This is just like the pain of childbirth is forgotten, or you'd never have any mor children! Anyone who has been at a birth will clearly remember their spouse/partner screaming in pain and saying never again!
On the flip side of this, I know a number of people who had miscarriages, multiples ones, were believers and yet 'The Lord' never delivered a child to them. Doesn't really tie into that vein of thinking does it?
You should read 'Beyond Coincidence' by Martin Plimmer, it may (though I doubt) open your eyes to alot of the things people regards as miracles.
It's also worth a visist to Why Won't God Heal Amputees? a most interesting read.
I don't think in that reply that I have rubbished any of what you have said, but I have put forward a perfectly reasonable argument.
Geezer
However, have you considered all the times you have opened the bible to a page utterly unconnected to what you had been thinking about? It's like when someone you were thinking of suddenly rings you. Wow! But, more often than not, they don't ring, when you think of of them, or they ring when you are thinking of something else. It really isn't very mystifying at all.
As for your sister, I'm glad that she finally managed to have a baby. However, we too have suffered a miscarriage, and the thoughts of not wanting to do it again and then actually doing it again are very common. It's inherent in us to procreate, the disappointment of a miscarriage is soon replaced by the urge to try again.
This is just like the pain of childbirth is forgotten, or you'd never have any mor children! Anyone who has been at a birth will clearly remember their spouse/partner screaming in pain and saying never again!
On the flip side of this, I know a number of people who had miscarriages, multiples ones, were believers and yet 'The Lord' never delivered a child to them. Doesn't really tie into that vein of thinking does it?
You should read 'Beyond Coincidence' by Martin Plimmer, it may (though I doubt) open your eyes to alot of the things people regards as miracles.
It's also worth a visist to Why Won't God Heal Amputees? a most interesting read.
I don't think in that reply that I have rubbished any of what you have said, but I have put forward a perfectly reasonable argument.
Geezer
I have had even weirder experiences so Im glad I picked that one I think.
This isn't a debate, it's not even close. It is two sections of people, that are utterly convinced they are right and wil not be told otherwise. (Well more like one person, vs the rest of Scoobynet)
It is very, very funny to see people (rightly) saying that religions is often forced down peoples throats, only to then go onto be completely blinkered to any form of religious discussion, and be frankly insulting, rude and offensive to anyone who even dares to admit to being in the slightest bit spritual. It is irony at it's best.
What confounds me is the utter contempt some people here hold with religion, and those that follow it.
I mean, what , has it ever done to you? If someone decides to be religious, then so ****ing what? Why should they to justify themselves?
It is very, very funny to see people (rightly) saying that religions is often forced down peoples throats, only to then go onto be completely blinkered to any form of religious discussion, and be frankly insulting, rude and offensive to anyone who even dares to admit to being in the slightest bit spritual. It is irony at it's best.
What confounds me is the utter contempt some people here hold with religion, and those that follow it.
I mean, what , has it ever done to you? If someone decides to be religious, then so ****ing what? Why should they to justify themselves?
MOK isn't arguign that Dinosaurs are the devil's work or other mumbo jumbo like that which has and is disprovable by science. He is however saying that he has faith and faith in something that cannot be given or proven.
For me Geezer is attacking MOK's faith rather than questioning religion generally which isn't the right way to go. Basically no one can prove the arguement either way, no one knows how the universe kicked off.
Anyway, i don't think people need to justify their faith but i do think religion generally has a lot to answer for and blind faith, dinosaur busting, bomb hugging faith is dangerous and should be questioned with a little rationality.
5t.
Scooby Regular
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 12,304
Likes: 0
From: Derbyshire
Geezer No offence intended. But I didn't read any of the above purely because I bet you have come up with a way of providing some sort of way of saying "these things happen"......... I told you there was no point me posting them up purely because this would happen. But you haven't proved anything to me to say that it wasn't God who was communicationg with me......
I have had even weirder experiences so Im glad I picked that one I think.
I have had even weirder experiences so Im glad I picked that one I think.
There are far fewer things that are (apart for the fundementalists) attributable to god now than there were 200 years ago, and less still than 1000. God really is becoming god of the gaps and has fewer and fewer places to hide.
Scooby Senior
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 5,826
Likes: 0
From: North Wales
Agreed (see next post).
For me Geezer is attacking MOK's faith rather than questioning religion generally which isn't the right way to go. Basically no one can prove the arguement either way, no one knows how the universe kicked off.
Anyway, i don't think people need to justify their faith but i do think religion generally has a lot to answer for and blind faith, dinosaur busting, bomb hugging faith is dangerous and should be questioned with a little rationality.
5t.
For me Geezer is attacking MOK's faith rather than questioning religion generally which isn't the right way to go. Basically no one can prove the arguement either way, no one knows how the universe kicked off.
Anyway, i don't think people need to justify their faith but i do think religion generally has a lot to answer for and blind faith, dinosaur busting, bomb hugging faith is dangerous and should be questioned with a little rationality.
5t.
I don't believe in God, but if it was proveable that one existed and has created all this, then I would. Everything increasingly points to there not being one though.
Geezer
Scooby Regular
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,676
Likes: 7
From: 'Murica
I'm not 'attacking' anyone or anything. I am simply asking questions. I'm not advocating that MOK be stoned, or become some sort of outcast, I am simply asking him to open his eyes to the possibilty that what he (and others, I just happen to be in discussion with him mainly) believes may not be right nd that there are other things going on. But for some reason, they won't even entertain discussing the logic of the argument or why it would be flawed! It's not debate, it's denial.
I don't believe in God, but if it was proveable that one existed and has created all this, then I would. Everything increasingly points to there not being one though.
Geezer
I don't believe in God, but if it was proveable that one existed and has created all this, then I would. Everything increasingly points to there not being one though.
Geezer
Who would be to say that they just stuck around anyway after kicking things off in the universe, if there was a creator. Maybe we created ourselves somehow, **** knows
I don't think that encouraging Christians to dissect their own beliefs whilst trying justify themselves is the way to go. Hence the lack of answers from them.
It's difficult to accept but some people aren't all about logic and so they chose what they like or feel secure with. imho, of course.
Last edited by Torquemada; Oct 22, 2008 at 05:17 PM. Reason: mcspelling
I personally think the bible is a collection of wives tales over time that have been expanded into a religion through fear of death.
Out of interest, if you believe that 'God' exists do you also believe in aliens?
Scooby Regular
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 60,269
Likes: 0
From: Cas Vegas
As far as times present go, Christians and other religious people force their faith on their children. Childhood is when people are at their most vulnerable to suggestion - when their parents' word is gospel (if you'll pardon the usage). Belief inculcated at such a young age is extremely difficult to let go of.
Scooby Regular
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
As far as times present go, Christians and other religious people force their faith on their children. Childhood is when people are at their most vulnerable to suggestion - when their parents' word is gospel (if you'll pardon the usage). Belief inculcated at such a young age is extremely difficult to let go of.
Scooby Regular
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 700
Likes: 0
From: The far North
My sister in-law was drawn into religion about 2 or 3 years back. She is a "christian" and quite frankly now lives a very sad life where EVERYTHING is governed by her beliefs. Many of the things she did in her life before have had to be removed. Its actualy really sad to watch and also scary how brainwashed she has been.
On the odd occasion she has tried to offer her view of why certain things have happend in life and i either burst out laughing or get very angry if they have been about my personel experience.
If they want religion thats fine, just keep it well out of my sight.
On the odd occasion she has tried to offer her view of why certain things have happend in life and i either burst out laughing or get very angry if they have been about my personel experience.
If they want religion thats fine, just keep it well out of my sight.
Scooby Regular
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
The evolutionary hypothesis provides a more parsimonious explanation of the origins of species. The changes in species through time are better accounted for by chance mutations, differential reproduction, natural selection, and adaptation, rather than by design. Moreover, vestigial features such as the human appendix, tailbone, and male breasts and nipples hardly suggest adequate design; the same is true for vestigial organs in other species. Thus, the doctrine of creation is hardly supported in empirical terms.
Les
Scooby Regular
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 12,304
Likes: 0
From: Derbyshire
If god can be eternal, why not the universe, at least we know that exists?
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 18,687
Likes: 0
From: The Terry Crews of moderation. P P P P P P POWER!!
My thoughts on the subject are well documented elsewhere if you're really interested, but to be honest, those who object to religion are every bit as belligerent and closed minded as those who object to people who choose not to subscribe to organised religion. Either way you're preaching to the converted! lol
Ns04
Scooby Regular
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
From: Here
Whoever thinks that there is no God is a bit retarded.
Look at this amazing World that was given to us by God.
on the contrary, you may say "but its full of pr*ck, especially in England, why would God give us pr*ck?"...
Well, God also gave us free will.... and through seeing bad, we appreciate what is good....
How you chose to live out your religious duties is another question though.
I believe in God, do you?
Look at this amazing World that was given to us by God.
on the contrary, you may say "but its full of pr*ck, especially in England, why would God give us pr*ck?"...
Well, God also gave us free will.... and through seeing bad, we appreciate what is good....
How you chose to live out your religious duties is another question though.
I believe in God, do you?
According to people like you, God chooses who you marry, maps out your life for you and decides when and where you are going to die. GODS WILL sound familiar?
How can you have free will, when the big guy in the sky watches every little thing you do, knows about everything you are going to do or think before you do it?
Free will cannot exist with an omniscient and omnipotent deity which the bible clearly states he/she is; it’s a paradox you brain washed tart.
Last edited by markGT; Oct 23, 2008 at 02:44 PM.
Scooby Regular
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 0
My problem is ‘believers’ have in the past (still goes on now infact) hold little room for human autonomy, individual freedom, or self-reliance. They have emphasized submission to the word of God instead of self-determination, faith over reason, and gullibility over doubt, holding little confidence in the ability of humans to solve problems and create a better future by drawing on their own resources instead of looking to the sky for some miracle to happen.
Thats the problem with religion, they hate it when science proves there current thinking is total incorrect, thus they rewrite massive portions of text
Scooby Regular
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 0
Les, you seem to be a intelligent guy, could you attempt to now answer this question.
All of the ancient documents alleging God's existence are from a preliterate time, this is historical fact, so how has a society that has not yet developed a written language managed to write the bible? How do you reason this?
Cheers
All of the ancient documents alleging God's existence are from a preliterate time, this is historical fact, so how has a society that has not yet developed a written language managed to write the bible? How do you reason this?
Cheers
Scooby Regular
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
From: Here
The ones that don't manage to save their kids in time. Do they have Faith ?? Were they too late arriving to the scene because they doubted what they were hearing ???
My mate, bless him, lost his mum a couple of years a go. Very sad indeed. And I was just building my faith at the time. He said to me "is that not proof enough, that if there was a God he would not have killed my Mum" I said nothing to him obviously. But No, why is that Proof there isn't a God. His mum as lovely and loving as she was she never had any faith in God he has tried to call her but she has turnt her back on him. Now he won't keep calling but he will always be there in case she starts to call on him.
Living is very small in the whole concept. Its not all about living now but living in heaven for eternity with your loved ones. But to do this you need to have faith and to believe.
Believers of other religions. Well it all goes back to God its just how you get to God. And they will be judged as if they hadn't heard of Christ.
They believe what they believe but I unfortunately alot is forced upon them due to the nation they live in. And Christianity I think you will find is never forced upon any of the believers and yet is still the biggest Fath in the world.
My mate, bless him, lost his mum a couple of years a go. Very sad indeed. And I was just building my faith at the time. He said to me "is that not proof enough, that if there was a God he would not have killed my Mum" I said nothing to him obviously. But No, why is that Proof there isn't a God. His mum as lovely and loving as she was she never had any faith in God he has tried to call her but she has turnt her back on him. Now he won't keep calling but he will always be there in case she starts to call on him.
Living is very small in the whole concept. Its not all about living now but living in heaven for eternity with your loved ones. But to do this you need to have faith and to believe.
Believers of other religions. Well it all goes back to God its just how you get to God. And they will be judged as if they hadn't heard of Christ.
They believe what they believe but I unfortunately alot is forced upon them due to the nation they live in. And Christianity I think you will find is never forced upon any of the believers and yet is still the biggest Fath in the world.
. You really need to see a doctor; I've never read such inane crap in all my life. If I was your so called poor friend I'd get away from you as soon as possible.As for other believers in other religions why are they wrong in your eyes and you are right. The arrogence of your post takes my breath away? Gods like Thor, Woden, Isis, Zeus, and Apollo etc were all around thousands of years before Christianity reared its ugly head. Why don't you worship them? You worship Christianity because you were born in to a Christian society. If you had been born in Pakistan you would be a Muslim.
Its purley geographical that you are christain.
Scooby Senior
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 5,826
Likes: 0
From: North Wales
Well, Moses was supposedly born 1527 B.C. so considering that written Hebrew or Aramaic didn't appear for a few hundred years more, what language did God write the ten commandments in, and how did Moses understand them? 
Geezer
Geezer
Scooby Regular
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 14,758
Likes: 0
From: Home
We used to have discussions like this in the sixth form.
Les,
Deism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
would you say you are a deist?
Les,
Deism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
would you say you are a deist?
Scooby Regular
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,055
Likes: 0
From: Bucks
This really is comedy gold. You really need to see a doctor; I've never read such inane crap in all my life. If I was your so called poor friend I'd get away from you as soon as possible.
As for other believers in other religions why are they wrong in your eyes and you are right. The arrogence of your post takes my breath away? Gods like Thor, Woden, Isis, Zeus, and Apollo etc were all around thousands of years before Christianity reared its ugly head. Why don't you worship them? You worship Christianity because you were born in to a Christian society. If you had been born in Pakistan you would be a Muslim.
Its purley geographical that you are christain.
. You really need to see a doctor; I've never read such inane crap in all my life. If I was your so called poor friend I'd get away from you as soon as possible.As for other believers in other religions why are they wrong in your eyes and you are right. The arrogence of your post takes my breath away? Gods like Thor, Woden, Isis, Zeus, and Apollo etc were all around thousands of years before Christianity reared its ugly head. Why don't you worship them? You worship Christianity because you were born in to a Christian society. If you had been born in Pakistan you would be a Muslim.
Its purley geographical that you are christain.
Quite an interesting read this thread, usually wouldn`t bother replying but hey, I`m bored.
I believe in a Higer power of some sort, call it whatever you like, God, Alah, some form of highly evolved beings? Take your pick. What I don`t belive in is religion, more wars have been fought over Religion than any other reason! As stated previously the whole thing seems to go wrong when followers want to force thier belief on others, and adhere to strange rituals created way before modern sciece explained away the reasoning behind them.
People having faith doenst`t seem to cause any issues, when people have blind faith and an inhability to accept others who have different ideas is what causes the probems.
As I said I belive in something more than the physical world, but I am not informed enough to say if this is an all powerfull being acting of its own accord or things that sceince won`t explaine for many years to come. I have "faith" if you like, in the later, that someday we will evolve far enough to answer some of the big questions, but then why should my faith in sciece and evolution be more beliveable than someone elses faith in God?
If people agree with me, then fair enough, if not then thats cool too. Don`t see the need to fight about it. We are all stuck on this rock together, for now. This is where my beef with organised religion comes from, the need to fight over respective beliefs seems to constantly raise its ugly head.
I`ll leave you with a quote I once saw scribled outside an abandoned church:
"The first page of the bible was missing, Page read: Following contents fictional."
I believe in a Higer power of some sort, call it whatever you like, God, Alah, some form of highly evolved beings? Take your pick. What I don`t belive in is religion, more wars have been fought over Religion than any other reason! As stated previously the whole thing seems to go wrong when followers want to force thier belief on others, and adhere to strange rituals created way before modern sciece explained away the reasoning behind them.
People having faith doenst`t seem to cause any issues, when people have blind faith and an inhability to accept others who have different ideas is what causes the probems.
As I said I belive in something more than the physical world, but I am not informed enough to say if this is an all powerfull being acting of its own accord or things that sceince won`t explaine for many years to come. I have "faith" if you like, in the later, that someday we will evolve far enough to answer some of the big questions, but then why should my faith in sciece and evolution be more beliveable than someone elses faith in God?
If people agree with me, then fair enough, if not then thats cool too. Don`t see the need to fight about it. We are all stuck on this rock together, for now. This is where my beef with organised religion comes from, the need to fight over respective beliefs seems to constantly raise its ugly head.
I`ll leave you with a quote I once saw scribled outside an abandoned church:
"The first page of the bible was missing, Page read: Following contents fictional."
Scooby Regular
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,249
Likes: 0
From: Scotland
Scooby Senior
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 5,826
Likes: 0
From: North Wales
However, I do agree with what he says about geography. If you had been born in CHina, you certainly wouldn't be Christian.
Geezer
Scooby Regular
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,055
Likes: 0
From: Bucks
I also know people from India, Turkey and other places who were muslim and have converted to Christianity, and disowned by their family.
But I do know what you are saying and unfortunately not so much over here (as far as I know) but people are kinda forced into the religion. Which I think is wrong. But the people I know through the Church have looked at Muslim, Hindu and other religions and also advised when I started out I do the same if I am so unsure. So I think alot of people do get the wrong impression from the people of the Christian Faith. And again I can see why. But the times have changed and the Church is changing, A new generation of Christian is coming and hopefully it will show people that we are not weird or sad or deluded, we are just normal people who have a faith.
BANNED
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
BANNED
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Well if you read my previous post. My Nan is chinese born and bred and she was a christian. So are many of my dads friends.
I also know people from India, Turkey and other places who were muslim and have converted to Christianity, and disowned by their family.
But I do know what you are saying and unfortunately not so much over here (as far as I know) but people are kinda forced into the religion. Which I think is wrong. But the people I know through the Church have looked at Muslim, Hindu and other religions and also advised when I started out I do the same if I am so unsure. So I think alot of people do get the wrong impression from the people of the Christian Faith. And again I can see why. But the times have changed and the Church is changing, A new generation of Christian is coming and hopefully it will show people that we are not weird or sad or deluded, we are just normal people who have a faith.
I also know people from India, Turkey and other places who were muslim and have converted to Christianity, and disowned by their family.
But I do know what you are saying and unfortunately not so much over here (as far as I know) but people are kinda forced into the religion. Which I think is wrong. But the people I know through the Church have looked at Muslim, Hindu and other religions and also advised when I started out I do the same if I am so unsure. So I think alot of people do get the wrong impression from the people of the Christian Faith. And again I can see why. But the times have changed and the Church is changing, A new generation of Christian is coming and hopefully it will show people that we are not weird or sad or deluded, we are just normal people who have a faith.
