scooby L

Well done Pete... I was struggling....

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

This is true. Never under estimate the power of propaganda. Plus there are always a wide number of people willing to do whatever they can to get to the top. People are quite selfish when it comes down to it.

As for historically successful - the reasoning for that is the jews were traditionally money lenders. Remember under Islamic law a muslim cannot recieve or ask for interest on a payment, this is why there has to be special islamic mortgages etc.

The Jews have no such issue so for many years they were seen as growing rich off the poverty and misery of others. Plus despite the fact you can argue race v religion as with anything the Jewish community tended (and still does in terms of business, apologies if that is controversial) to be very self supporting. Islamic groups are the same.

5t.

cster

Let us not forget that Jews engaged in these activities because they were forbidden to engage in many other occupations due to the strictures of the Roman Catholic church.
It would be foolhardy to ignore the position of the RC church regarding Jews up to and indeed during the second world war.
Plus the fact of the matter is, that if you owe them a lot, you can always refuse to pay the money back and send them packing

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

Er.... bit behind that. For those that do all the bible studies Jesus was meant to have kicked the 'money lenders' out of the temple in Jerusalem for that reason.

Since it was the big JC then at the time there was no RC so the argument doesn't stand up.

5t.

cster

I like your source of "fact".
I believe the bible was written quite some time after the death of JC and that no contemporanious notes were kept.
I believe that among the first people the Christians tied to convert were the Romans. As (according to the bible) the Romans had crucified JC, this must have taken some doing. It must indeed, have been tempting for them to try to water this down a bit. But of course I am getting into the realms of speculation rather than (biblical) fact.
I find it amusing that some (not all) are expressing opinions here on a subject of some sensitivity from positions of profound ignorance.
I think the tenor of this thread was about the causes of anti semitism, and I think the role of the RC church is questionable in this area.
You may correct me if I am wrong,but I think the Pope may have made an apology regarding this matter.

NorthDave

I actually think it would be easier than you think. I read an article once about a young lad in Iraq who went out at weekends laying traps and bombs for us. We think of him as a terrorist but I bet a lot of us would do the same if our country was invaded.

From my limited knowledge Germany was in a very bad depression it was alledged was caused by Jews for their own financial gain. I guess the modern day equivalent might be Britain on its **** with the perception being one ethnic minority had pushed us in to it for their own gain. People would revolt when things got bad enough (the BMP might do very well in elections). You can imagine the hype whipped up as occassional attacks start to happen and before you know it the average joe feels like the odd one out. Then introduce a bit of fear if you dont tow the line and do your bit for the country.

Probably talking bollocks in the above but there you go!

The Anne Frank house in the 'Dam is very moving. Especially when you get to the end and there is a picture of the statue which some **** has sprayed a **** symbol on to. Leaves you shaking your head!

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

The RC and organised religion in general has a lot to answer for but that is a different matter.

You choose not to believe the story but it is generally accepted as true and even appears in the Jewish Chronicles of the day. For reference I said "was meant to" you used the word fact not I.

What I wasn't as keen on was the fact that you basically said that Jews were forced to lend money and deal in gold etc because of the RC Church when the truth would seem to be that it has been a cultural thing for much much longer and as such has caused tensions, particularly with Muslims since then.

5t.

cster

I hear what you are saying.
If you have an interest in this area, you should check it out.
Jews in the Middle ages were forbidden from engaging in many trades and were expelled en masse from many countries including this one in 1290.

oldsplice

Tonight, BBC2 at 7.00

Holy Ghost

extraordinary contrast with boris's exclusively jocular family journey last week. thought springer was very dignified. he born on a london tube station platform during an air raid in 1944 i gather.

coolcookie

Lastyear I wentto Krakow for the weekend. Did a day excursiom to Auschwitz-part of it is setu p as a museum should be compulsory for all Germans Imho You can goup to the top of the watch tower where the raillinesgothrough-in the familiar photo.The industrial scale of thesite was shocking-theperimeter fence was16km of electrified barbed wire the foundations of thewooden huts(German army stables)where the inmates sleptgo on far into thedistanceor asfarasyoucan seefromthetopofthetower.impressive..

wealsowenttothesaltmineswellworthit.cheer salll.

_Meridian_

iTrader: (1)

Nothing special about the Germans, as this famous series of experiments proves.



M

Myles

iTrader: (40)

As the last few sufferers at the hands of the ***** etc. die and take the terrible tales of woe with them, it becomes all the more important that we dont forget. If it takes a programme like the one shown last night, then that can only be a good thing. I read a book whilst on a detachment in Kabul, called Forgotten Voices of the Holocaust. It was one of the most harrowing and moving documents i shall ever hope to read.

Semper

Just watched it. Very sad and well done. Touched me especially at the end when he was talking about how important family is.

Go Jerry!

urdad

Bear with me..
I never saw the programme,I can't therefore say what my reaction is.
The Germans from what has been reported were animals no doubt,no matter the race,etc how could anybody do such atrocities to another person.
What always dumbfounds me though is no matter how bad people say these places were there is a macabre wish to visit them....
Lets pop over and stub our toes in the dirt and have a little weep,why?is it because we didn't do enough?is it because we are shocked at the babarity of what we can achieve?

Listen to this...I don't dislike anybody,race or creed without a valid personal reason and that would not even amount to a village worth..

It's not my intention to offend but if you feel I have there's little I can do about it...I can definately say I will not visit any of the places that were the stages for such atrocities,by any nation towards any nation..

Ray_li

Whilst I was whating the program I couldnt stop thinking about all the families/blood lines that got wiped out. Very sad

Suresh

I was shocked when I found national WWII death tolls on Wikipedia a few days back.

Military deaths: 25.3Mio

Civilian deaths: 41.7Mio
Holocaust deaths: 5.8Mio
Total 72.3Mio people

Notable victims of civilian deaths: 16.2Mio Chinese. 11.4Mio Russians

World War II casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Make love not war

Ray_li

OMG. I didnt know so many Chinese were killed in WWII

I've very suprised but I cant see why it happened

baser999

iTrader: (2)

I visited Auschwitz several years whilst in Poland and no, I didn't weep. Although I am not a Jew I did however reflect upon the magnitude of the horror that was inflicted upon just this one race of people, by just one individual and his followers, most of whom knew that if his orders weren't carried out would be next on his list. Regardless of the number of programmes you might watch you simply cannot imagine what those people went through but simply being there and looking around what remains of the camp, the vast cabinets of personal belongings, the hair, the teeth, the photographs of harrowed haunted faces, bullet holes in walls where people were lined up and shot and ultimately the gas chambers, is certainly not something that I shall ever forget. I suppose the camps remain as a permanent reminder that this should never be allowed to happen again.




Despite all this, we still have Mugabe . . . . . . .

unclebuck

Two things that struck me about this programme. One is how recently it happened, and as Jerry says it could happen again.

The other is the nauseating subterfuge the gooks employed to convince the people that they were being taken to a better place, before f*cking them over completely and utterly.


Sound familiar ??

cster

Transport for London?

vindaloo

Japan invaded China before WW2 kicked off so they were there on the ground beforehand. Their policies towards the Chinese whether military or civilian were barbaric. They regarded Chinese as lesser humans and their military training and leaders had very different views on warfare than we do. Particularly in regard to what was required for prisoners or captive populations.

Whether the numbers in that wiki refer to "only" Chinese deaths in WW2, I dunno, but there were large massacres of Chinese populations before WW2 started.

This page describes more or less what went on: ::The Japan::

The previous link discusses Japanese "war crimes"....

Quote " The civilian victims of Japanese war crimes totaled 5,469,000. Detailed by country: China 3,695,000; Indochina 457,000; Korea 378,000; Indonesia 375,000; Malaya 346,000 ; Philippines 119,000, Burma 60,000 and Pacific Islands 57,000."

J.

unclebuck

Nu Labour... New Team Gordon Brown... we are being led like donkeys to the slaughter

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

The figure that always gets me is the number of Russians the Germans killed. The concentration camps are synonymous with the Jewish deaths at 6m but the Halocaust has a much wider pull. Almost 10m Soviets/Slavs were killed at the same time but are often over looked sadly.

5t.

FlightMan

British Airways' Terminal 5 is working ad's?






Actually it is, honestly.

Leslie

It was a very moving programme and I can understand Springer's emotion.

The Holocaust was a truly dreadful thing to do to a race of people just because of the prejudice of one evil man and also his self serving cohorts. Of course it could happen again, People who get into positions of great power will often do anything to maintain their position.

The Germans rightly preserve concentration camps as "Denkplatze" or as an example of what has happened in past history and to try to ensure that it will not re-occur. They are honest about all that went on and they also decry it just as much as anyone else might do. The things that happened were unbelievably awful, when I toured Sachsenhausen near Berlin I had to leave by the time I got to the hut where the "medical experiments" went on because I became so angry. I talked to a local outside the camp who was born near there and he said that when the Russians took over East Germany at the end of the war, that camp continued to be used for the same purposes including the torture etc until the '60's!

It is a part of history, and we should also realise how valuable history can be to indicate what man is capable of and the mistakes that he can make also. Basic human character does not change that much as years go by!

Les

urdad

WE will never be allowed to forget,shall we dwell on such evil..
Anything that Jerry Ringer has to do with is always a bit suspect..shock/horror/great telly...

Luan Pra bang

The trouble is the Holocoust is just another Human produced disaster in a long list. Cambodia lost between 1 and 3.5 million out of a 7 million population under polpot, his purges also targeted the educated and intelligent to try and reset the clock to year zero. Some say China under Mao lost 60 million through Purges and starvation (Mao swapped all chinas food for weapons with Russia) Stalins purges also made the Russian army so weak they had the ***** knocking on the door of Moscow within a few days of their invasion. IN terms of cruelty nothing has really changed, look at Siera Leone, Rwanda Kosovo etc.
People just can be hatefull and if someone started to arrest all the Gypsies now who would complain.

urdad

Well said..
Yes it's still going on,but people prefer to whinge on about what has happened not was is happening,in 20 or so years this conversation will cover those places mentioned and people can go and reflect on what they didn't do again,doesn't make a lot of sense to me,all these do gooders are not as valid as they first appear,and I don't mean the posters on here,I mean high profile headline grabbers.
Another few more $'s in Jerry's pocket..

lozgti

People have just been commenting on the program and the snapshot given about those awful times.Nothing wrong with that.

Have to say,not for one minute have I thought that was a cynical money making exercise,simply a (sad) story of what happened to his natural relatives.Nothing to do with despicable regimes elsewhere.If it was aprogram about any of the other atrocities mentioned I'm sure the thread would be discussing those

Mind you,I despair about what our society has actually turned into now.Greedy ,selfish,obnoxious.I really think most of these events are treated like water off a ducks back.Don't really give two hoots about remembering innocent victims and those that died in the war.Bet they didn't expect they would be forgotten and the latest Plasma TV was more exciting to discuss