eggy790

iTrader: (20)

yeah but i know some people that are happy with standardish power with a decent turbo back exhaust system, and for them, they dont want to remap, coz of price and no future plans, a quick open source map would be ideal

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Interesting debate.

I think the software has nothing to do with it though as that is just a tool. I have compared ecutek with the ecuedit tools that I use and there are distinct advatanges in both tools - but at the end of the day it is a tool, it does not self map.

The question is the knowledge, ability, gut feel (yes I believe there is this) and diligence of the person reading the data and interpreting that into what gets put into the map, then doing the same again until right. What tools they use will only affect the cost.

Sharing roms is a very bad idea in my opinion. It is VERY easy to brick an ecu by flashing in the wrong ROM or god forbid someone posted a deliberately corrupt file. I would never flash an ecu with a downloaded ROM. People that are suggesting that this would be a good idea are wanting a shortcut to the perfect map - there is no shortcut and there is no single perfect map as every car responds differently. Instead they could look at what others have done and try and understand why they have done it and decide whether something similar could be applied to their ROM.

jjones

i think we can alll have a good guess

eggy790

iTrader: (20)

very good points there dynamix, never thought of corrupted roms

redwards

iTrader: (6)

I'm building a Westfield for a mate shortly and he has been looking into engine management as you are building the car from nothing. The guys recommend mega squirt, which I believe is mapped by the end user. I just hope I don't kill his engine!!

joey_turbo

iTrader: (26)

Been trying to find out a bit about this. Makes interesting reading.

eggy790

iTrader: (20)

sure does, but it seems no one is practicing it ? even for basic breathing mods?

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

What makes you think that ?

bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

There are some of us out there, the scene is huge in the US though.

eggy790

iTrader: (20)

o i stand corrected then, who could i go to, if i just wnated map tweaked to include a turbo back exhaust?

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Where are you based mate?

Stealth

iTrader: (4)

Mapping really doesn't have to be dangerous, all you need to do is map the car in the correct order and not get ahead of yourself and the limits of the engine at new for all factors (bottom end etc)

I am trying to learn about this myself as I really want to have a pop at it, I have a TSL333 at the moment but just fancy putting a std STI ecu in and seeing what's what.

Somebody started a thread like this not so long ago and it had masses of resource links in it so you should porbably try to find it.

Like I say it doesn't have to be dangerous, just have patience and it is probably worth your while investing in a second ECU so you can put the original one back in again inbetween mapping sessions and you can still use the car

rewindnottm

Mocom Racing - Performance car and trackday products still do i think for about £450 on the rolling road.

i have mapper who does mine and i cant recommend him enough, but you would have to pm me for more details

lets not forget that there is loads more to open source then just maps, you add launch control, valet mode that restricts your car going over a certain rev limit, flat foot gear changing, rev protection for when the engine is cold and even switchable maps on the go. i have never seen this available with Ecutek

eggy790

iTrader: (20)

thansk for your message mate ^

is this all on a newage what your referring to? assume with classic youd need a simtek or something, its just you mentioned ecutek

bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

Just to be clear, ECUTek can do some of the things you mention above, you need to ask the mapper. Also FFS is only available on 32bit ECU's.

Eggy - OS mapping is only available on cars post 2001(bugeye).

deamon555

Another vote for opensource mapping here!

Potentially a newbie compared to professional mappers, I've been interested in the idea since I got my scoob about 2.5 years ago! A month after I got the car I discovered the Open ECU projects and decided to investigate.. Coming from a Computer Science background and with strong interest in engineering this was right up my street.

But I didn't just jump in with 2-feet.. I spent the best part of 8 months reading and making sure I understood exactly how the impreza engine functions and how that ties into the way the ecu is mapped before I started updating the MAP.. From there, worked my way up through the changes.

Without going into details.. I've been able to get my Bugeye WRX up from a measly 215bhp to 274bhp possibly more now, was down a little on boost on the day of the rollers (backbox, up-pipe and center cats removed, STi Intercooler, Green panel filter + Open source remap). The car is far more drivable and is set-up to the way I drive..

When you get your car mapped on rollers, it's artificial, but good for diagnostic!.. Mapping on the road is more real.. But most mappers only spend an hour or two with teh car.. If you map your own car you can spend any amount of time monitoring how you drive the car and adjust the map accordign to your drivign style!

Proper understanding of what you are doing is key to making a safe map. If anyone is in any doubt DON'T! AS for tuners using open source software. I'm all for it.. There's no reason why it woudl be any better/worse than ECUTEk maps.. Just much cheaper.. Only downside is that if the ECUTek software fails and bricks your ECU while updating, ECUTek take responsibility.. With Open source, you don't have that come back.. But with thousands upon thousands of written maps by the Open source software, it's more than reliable!

I agree the £650 for a pro to remap your car is worth it for safety.. But if it wasn't for the opensource stuff I couldn't see me forking out £650 for a remap..

Alan Jeffery

[QUOTE=Shark Man;7953761]Funny that alot of mappers don't have much hands-on experience with building engines.....

So think for second. How does a mapper "know" what an engine can physically handle. If they didn't build it, or have experience with rebuilding the stock engines in which one gains a good insight to which components wear out faster and are more vunerable. They need to blow up a few first to work that out And even then they need to work on something that will ensure the engine will last over 30,000miles to avoid any negative comeback from the customer (i.e its the mapper's fault ).


Well, the above is just one reason why we strip, machine, and build engines, specify and fit components, then map using our dyno and on road testing all under one roof. We don't have a problem if we find a fault with the car under set up, we just fix it, then carry on mapping it.

payney2000awd

can any1 recomend a good mapper in the midlands area. i need a remappable ecu aswell as myn is a 98, would a 00 ecutec ecu fit, an then have that remapped or is it better to go for an apexi fc or similar?

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

99% sure that ecu wouldnt fit as the pin arrangement is different. Apexi, Simtek or Solaris would be your best bet.

jazraymcbeath

Mapped wanted for a 2002 sti

oadamo

iTrader: (1)

look here loads of maps for you to use

RomRaider • Index page

adam

SunnySideUp

Maybe you pay for the comprehensive warranty the mappers offer? If the engine fails because it has been taken outside of its design envelope you want some warranty to claim on.

Butty

iTrader: (2)

Offering a mapping warranty would be financial suicide for a tuner, unless they were responsible for the fitting of other mods to complement the map and had a good assessment of the car in its "before" state.

Black-Hawk

iTrader: (4)

My opinion, leave it to the experts.

pat

This thread reminds me of an amusing, but true anecdote...

An engineer worked his entire life at a company. He got on well with his employers and eventually retired. A couple of years later one of the machines he was familiar with malfunctioned. The company got in several "experts" to try to diagnose and fix the problem to no avail. One of the old timers there suggested they call the retired engineer, he had spent a lot of time with that machine and may have some ideas. They called the retired engineer and asked if he was interested in fixing a problem. Being an engineer he still found himself unable to resist the challenge and visited his former workplace to try to help. He was taken to the machine, which he inspected for some time before producing a stick of chalk and marking an X on the machine, and told the managers that is where the problem lies.

They took a closer look at the machine, replaced parts that lay in the identified area and the machine worked again. The engineer submitted a bill for USD 50k. The accounts department were a little shocked at the bill and asked for an itemised version. The items on the bill were: 1x Chalk Mark - USD 5.00 ; 1x Knowing where to put the chalk mark - USD 49,995. The bill was duly paid and everyone was happy. The engineer got a nice "bonus" and the company didn't need to replace the machine, which would have cost much, much more.

The point is that knowledge is a valuable commodity, which is affirmed by the cost of the lack thereof. If you don't know how to fix something, or do something, it will cost you more to figure it out than it will to pay someone who does know. In essence this is what you're paying for when you get a car remapped.

Of course the cost of not knowing can be manifest in many ways. It may simply take time to learn, ergo you're buying expediency. Lack of knowledge may result in the premature demise of an engine, ergo you're paying for a rebuild. By asking someone to map a car for you, you're also asking the them to use their knowledge and to take some measure of responsibility.

It's a personal choice. If you are genuinely interested and have time to spare to learn, then the "cost" of your time is mitigated by the fact that it's not time "wasted". Ergo the argument that it's costing you more overall is semi-moot because you're writing off the cost of your own time. On the other hand you may have a family and may value your time with them quite highly, in which case it's far from a moot point.

I don't recall ever trying to dissuade someone from learning or doing their own thing. It's their choice at the end of the day. It's not rocket science, but it's not trivial either. There are consequences when it goes wrong, as there are rewards when it goes right. To go into it blindly is foolish. To do so in an informed way is much more likely to result in a positive outcome. Just be aware that Subaru engines are fickle things and what works well on one may not on another, sometimes with disastrous consequences. If you are aware and proceed cautiously odds are in your favour, but I've seen the consequences of maps simply downloaded and flashed, not always quite what the owner was looking for! Don't assume that what you're doing is right, prove to yourself that it is. If you don't know how to then don't start until you do... once you can, you'll be in a good position to make useful and safe improvements to your car.

Cheers,

Pat.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Well said Pat.

Oh btw - I forgot to give you your 3 bar map sensor back amidst the fun at the weekend - doh.

bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

Are you the guy asking for a map on NAISOC? I wouldn't entertain flashing a random unverified map from the internet.

SunnySideUp

Which is why, frankly, I am staggered that Mappers - considering the substantial amount of money they take - don't offer a Warranty.

You are basically saying that they could get it wrong, your engine blows up, and they simply walk away shrugging thier shoulders??

pat

SSU,

you need to look at the other side of the that argument too. You start your car and notice a little rattle. Hmmm... that sounds expensive. But as it warms up it goes away. Now, you don't really want to pay for a rebuild so you decide "I know, I'll get it mapped, it's sure to blow, then I can blame the mapper". While I am not suggesting that you personally would be so dishonest, there are people that are, and it *DOES* happen.

You also need to consider that whilst a typical engine may take X amount of punishment before is says "enough", not all examples will. People bring 15 year old cars to be mapped. What's to say that Ming the Merciless hasn't been one of the 10 previous owners and thrashed the engine every second of its life in his possession ? The fact it's still holding on is a miracle in itself. The you turn it up and it's the straw that broke the camel's back. Suddenly it's the mapper's fault, when in reality it was Ming's fault for abusing the car.

Then you get the other scenario. On more than one occasion I have refused to map a car because I had concerns over the engine's health which the owner was genuinely unaware of. I was subject to some considerable abuse over this, but it's not worth the risk; more often than not my concerns are justified and the engine expires within a couple of months because the owner wouldn't heed my advice to get it looked at... if it can expire on a standard map you can bet your last dollar it would expire if it was mapped!

Ultimately mappers cannot know the history of a random engine and to take responsibility for it is financial suicide. It's not the case of being unsure of their work, it's a case of being unsure of the engine's history, and if you want a warranty with a map there are certain tuners that *WILL* offer a warranty with an engine / map combination they sell, even if it is pushing the boundaries a bit, because they know exactly what is in there and what it's capable of.

Hope this clears things up a little ?

Pat.

SunnySideUp

Pat

Thanks for your reply, I understand your point of view - but, if I ask someone (and they agree that it is safe) to map my engine outside of it's operating parameters ... I would want some assurance that I could come back if the engine blows.

A good mapper should be able to spot a shagged engine a mile off - I can, and I rarely work around engines (let alone every single day).

It could be taken that Mappers know that what they are doing isn't safe for the engine (there is a reason that Subaru do not map to get massive increases in BHP) - and would therefore not want to be liable when the inevitable happens and the engine goes bang.

Just my opinion and take on this subject .... I would demand some kind of warranty - so, I guess, I will never get my ECU Re-Mapped.

A trust thing, I guess?