Alan Jeffery

That wasn't what I had in mind JD, although as you test it to destruction every time you take it out.... Yours is just fine.
The Murtaya has a habit of chucking oil smoke out of the exhaust big style when you restart the car after a full bore flat out start, like drag strip or the Trax 0-60. We know it's getting oil in the breather, and we figured the plate would help sort that one out, hopefully without resorting to catch tanks with oil returns. Bear in mind these are road cars, although we'll do what's required of course. The trouble is, we are seeing more and more cars that are getting marginal with this one, due in part to the torque levels of the 2.5 conversions, we'd like to get to the bottom of it.
As to your question, if the Murtaya stops slinging smoke out in that circumstance, we'll call that a result!

David_Wallis

Why wouldnt you let it worry you?

If im fitting a baffle plate and one of the rubber flaps get sucked through the plate then your baffle plate is now doing very little in the way of baffling, especially if the same happens to a few more..

I also think this issue is being over looked, it tends to suggest there were either some very high crankcase vacumn or some high pressures down the breathers.

Eitherway I wont be fitting one until the issue is resolved, mind you hopefully I can squeeze a dry sump pulley in on the end of the crank and it wont be an issue then.

David

Alan Jeffery

Sorry David, for a second there you came over as one of those who worry about just about anything! different matter if you are considering one of course. We're all waiting to hear from Cosworth now.
We can't do any more from this end, other than test them ourselves, which we are doing. Despite spending time in a huddle on this one, nobody has yet come up with any reason for any kind of vacuum in the crankcase. As far as I know, Dynamix's car hasn't seen boost at all yet.
Cosworth have a dry sump kit coming out, has to be a good one for track cars, and should stop all those breather problems.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Nope - no boost on my car yet

Cossie Dry Sump - now that would be nice..... If they need some proper UK testers this time

Alan Jeffery

I think they would probably require your first born son as deposit...

johnfelstead

Dont see why, the hardware isn't expensive, especially in $ right now.

frayz

iTrader: (7)

Agreed, but that little "Cosworth" badge that comes with every purchase has gotta be worth a few more zeros on the end of the price

Alan Jeffery

I always find the ability to recognise when someone is gently kidding is a useful skill on forums.

Area 52 Autosport

You're meant to put the zero's at the front with this product I think?


Mike.

jd5217

works on mine

Area 52 Autosport

That's an assumption, I think what you mean is that it currently doesn't appear to be showing the same signs of not working in the same way that it doesn't on Duncan's car.


Mike.

jd5217

fair enough, so far so good then.

Area 52 Autosport

<plays devils advocate>
So there is no indication at all that it's fitted on your car, and there is some evidence that it's slowing down the return of oil into the sump on a very similar car.

I think there's a big leap being made at the moment that it's doing anything constructive?

Personally I'd feel safer without one until there's clearer evidence/data as to what and how it's ACTUALLY doing (as opposed to the theory of how it's supposed to help) and I had seriously considered putting one on my own car.


Mike.

jd5217

so you are doubting Cosworth technical and Alan in that he may not have fitted it to mine?

very similar car, but not identical.

Tidgy

just a quick question.

if the sump was designed for the standard sump setup, then if you alter it isn't it like moving the goal posts? so there wont be any gaurenties that the fitment will be the same?

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

No, I dont think that is what Mike is saying Steve.

As far as I am aware Alan hasnt tested these personally for the benefits that Cosworth say it will bring... ie reduce oil surge/splashing.

Cosworth have only tested these with their wide body big capacity sump - so I am sure that the combination of the two elements does prevent oil starvation. Who am I to question Cosworth technical knowhow.

Sure it isnt doing anything negative with your engine but as yet it is not proven to do anything positive either.

I would say the best solution to the blow by issue is a good catch can set up though where the oil is kept out of the intake system and kept closed loop.

jd5217

thanks duncan, better worded.

Andy.F

A simple test will prove beyond doubt whats going on.

You have a tapped sump plug, connect a piece of transparent hose to it and elevate the open end.
The actual oil level in the sump can be monitored through the hose as you run the engine.

Andy

Andy.F

The plate appears to have 4 or 5 cut openings that are not controlled by the one way rubber flaps, ie continually open. I can't see how this plate could hold up 4 ltrs of oil

johnfelstead

Maybe in your world, certainly not in mine.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

I wont be doing any further testing on this Andy as I will be going down the alternative route of getting a sump baffled.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Does it need to hold up 4 litres Andy ?

1 litre is a problem
2 litres starts to become a huge problem

add to that oil moving away from the pickup in cornering and are we really solving an issue?

Andy.F

For it to drop oil pressure on idle to 6 psi then the pump would need to be drawing air, ie all 4 ltrs held up above the plate.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Regadless of whether it destroys the engine at idle or not, the point is, if it is only holding up 2 litres and still showing a decent reading, there is 2 litres of oil less in the sump to be swilled around under cornering forces - surely this will make cavitation even more likely in the exact circumstances that it is supposed to be offering protection?

Alan Jeffery

Just one point here. If the breather system D is currently using allows as much as a litre of oil to escape into it, ( which is the whole problem!) then the sump is short by at least one litre every time you put your foot down, as it's contained in the catch tank and return. I'm only saying this to illustrate the possible issues in the round, rather than trying to criticise anybody!
Once again, where I'm coming from are situations where it's marginal on road cars. JD's car didn't have a problem to start with, as his breather system has proven adequate so far. His car puts out a very smooth 420 bhp on a GT30 and SimTek so not a Time Attack spec car. Personally, I CAN see the potential benefits, and I can only assume Scooby Mania did as well or they wouldn't have fitted one.
We most certainly had a problem with the Murtaya, and I expect the fitting of the plate to cure it. As it happens we stripped the car anyway, as we are moving on and up power wise, and fitting a new charge cooler set up.
Any further tests by us will have to wait for that. (1 week hopefully)

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

My catch can does not collect 1 litre on start up - nor under normal boost or even extreme boost

It fills due to the splashing of oil in the sump causing oil to collect in the heads and out of the head breathers under prolonged high g cornering. In my case it goes into the catch can and returns to the sump at the same time keeping oil levels pretty close to what is acceptable. The problem that I was wishing to solve with the plate was to stop the splashing or at least slow it down. That is why I asked them to source and fit one - not their suggestion.

To have the baffle plate slow down the rate of return to the sump in a static situation where there was no boost, no oil in the catch can was very worrying and I hope that it hasnt done any damage to my bearings.

The systems that you are talking about Alan seem to be following the std set up of feeding this breather mix of oil and air into the intake. Whereas I agree that this is ok for the road, but is there really an oil surge problem on the road to solve for them either?

jd5217

breather system on mine.

has a RCM catch tank fitted which collects from heads and crankcase, but pcv still connected. Therefore under no boost the pcv still operates under normal conditions, but under boost the pcv closes but instead of venting back into the inlet tract (as per standard) mine vents to the catch tank and on to atmosphere.

Alan Jeffery

This subject is too complex for this format!
My fingers would get sore.
Hi Dynamix - Of course your engine doesn't chuck out a litre of oil on start up!
I think we all know that.
My point is that it has been commonly reported by those who run high power cars that they can lob out a litre or more into the breather on full chat..
And that's why you were seeking a solution, yes? Otherwise, why did you fit one in the first place? Being fair here, I have no opinion on your car, as it isn't in my garage, and I can't pass comment on something I'm not involved with, other than to speculate. I wish sometimes other people would adopt the same constraints! I sincerely wish you didn't have any aggro with your car at all, but hey, it's machinery, and we all have to put up with some of that.
I say again, we haven't had big issues with the road cars. YET. But they are MARGINAL, and that's why I took an interest in the Cosworth baffle plate.
A number of our customers are going drag racing, we are sponsoring a local series, and a few want to do track days, so the need may be more pressing soon!

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Restraint - yup, so do I Alan.

Oil surge/blowby/splashing or whatever on launch hasnt been a problem (yet) but then I have to confess at not having the clutch or power to really test the std sump on that one - plus its a lardage so a fair old beast to launch

I guess the murtaya is marginally quicker out of the blocks - that looks awesome to me and I hope that the trials of the plate work well on it.

I certainly am still pretty confused (it would have been too easy to say baffled again lol) as to why it didnt on mine.

Alan Jeffery

Aren't we all! It's certainly kicked off a debate on both sides of The Pond I can tell you!