Chins

John

The UK STI has 262 as std, but what has the official EVO VII got. Sams is not an official Mitsubishi UK car. Therefore his might have more power than a Euro Emissons car. You need to compare Sams car to a Grey import which doesnt have 262. Hendry say the STI has over 300bhp (but thats crap as our last dyno day showed).

People on here talk about the stripped out RS version, but that is not an offical car. Its a Ralliart car which as far as I'm aware is not fully homologated and the warranty not fully Mitsubishi supported.

Still at least if everything was cut and dried we have nothing to talk about. It will be fun finding out the real truth.

I will certainly go drive a VII before I order my next Ricer. Almost bought a TME last year, but worries on residuals put be off (and damn good decision that was for once )

Jonathan

Chins

John

Ralliart have sold cars in the past that were not official cars. No official car are to be sold untill March.

I am happy to be corrected on this, but I thought the official ones will have passed Euro III emissons, where Sams wont ?

If there is no difference why has Mitsubishi waited untill March ?

Jonathan

john banks

Guess you are right. But a 3 year unlimited mileage warranty through Ralliart and payment in Sterling seems official enough to me even if it is not actually Mitsubishi Motors.

Sam Elassar

hi there
i did not expect that many responses.
AJW
I am really sorry you must be one of the warrander or RC development guys, that actually don't know much about the car you drive and let them rip you off with all the apexi stuff. before you reply tell me that you don't have this stuff? the ecu on the 7 is completely different from the 7, it just allows you to run more boost. the standard 7 if you ever checked it runs 1.2 bar. so if you accept that it is the same engine ( which most evo6 owners like to think) then it will produce more power at 1.2 bar that the 1.0-1.1 bar the evo 6 produces as standard. does that make sense to you? now i have not taken into consideration that hte evo 7 has got a bigger fmic as well and a straighter exhaust system ( have you noticed that the 7 exhaust exists from the right and not the left? ).

now i am not saying that my car produced 320 bhp because i don' think i had 100 bhp lost through the transmission but i think i have got at least 300bhp as standard.

the 7 ecu as standard allows you to raise the boost to 1.4-1.5 bar with out any other alterations to fuel pump or ecu. what some companies do is they use something like a fuel controller that allows you only to LEAN OUT the mixture in which ever area you want and therefore you need to over fuel to start with and then lean it out. am i making sense here? but what they did not tell you that you can run your standard ecu very close what you have had the car set up to? ooops

as for the difference between the two the sti7 and the evo7 on the road the evo7 will always win due to the FMIC. and on the RR the evo 7 will always win due to the FMIC. BUT if you fit an FMIC to a Subaru you will loose your warranty as it will be considered as a major mod? the evo has one as standard with the standard subaru top mount intercooler the temps on the rolling road will reach in excess of 70degrees however with the fmic you will get 40-45degrees that is a lot of bhp. on the road the difference won't really be that much. the best RR fan i have seen can only produce air at 80mph while on the road you can obviuosly reach more than that

it is basically horses for courses.


sam

juan

Neil,

guess we'd better check the spec of RS II as it seems to include AYC and other odds and ends.

Taken from lancerregister:

MITSUBISHI EVOLUTION VII PRICES REVEALED
Mitsubishi announces two versions of Evolution VII for UK market
Mitsubishi Motors in the UK are taking the opportunity of exhibiting at Autosport International to confirm prices for the official factory built and approved European specification Lancer Evolution VII’s which go on sale in March.
Two versions will be available, the RS II 276 bhp model which has all the refinement expected of an Evolution model including Active Yaw Control, Recaro seats and will be priced at £29,995.
Having undergone extensive testing on the recent UK Press Launch of the Evo VII, Mitsubishi in the UK are also announcing a power-up 300bhp version of the same car priced at £31,495. In addition to the enhancements to the power unit and exhaust system, the Evo
VII 300, as it is code named, can be distinguished from the standard car by a carbon fibre dash and switch panels, carbon fibre gear **** and carbon fibre rear spoiler end plates. The
enhancement work for the Evo VII 300 has been undertaken by Mitsubishi Motors own UK preparation centre at Portbury, Bristol.
Official performance figures are to be confirmed but the maximum speed for both models is in excess of 150mph and the approximate 0 to 60 mph time for the standard car is 4.4 seconds and 4.0 seconds for the Evo VII 300.

Guess the earlier prices posted (GSR - 30K & RS - 25K) may be for official imports or some such which is what I'd be after if I had loadsa money!

Juan


p.s. all nice motors are getting caned on depreciation now. Admittedly evo suffers a fair bit here. Still kicks butt though in my humble opinion


[Edited by juan - 1/12/2002 2:48:25 PM]

jackal

I'm with ajp on this one.

An evo 6 or 7 may be faster than its equivalent scooby specced car straight out of the box, but there is a lot of crap talked when it comes to evo mods & bhp figures. Wherever you see or hear a RR, you also get lots of bullsh1t - they are good for one thing and one thing only, comparison of the same car before and after mods and even performing that function there will be a percentage of error.

When i got my E6 people told me that a full exhaust + decat + induction would get me 310-330bhp. Utter nonsense thats all I can say ... i wouldn't expect my car to be any more than 300bhp.

If you want to get 350 then afaik you need a proper equipment to change the boost like a decent fuel reg. and boost controller, add in the cost of an uprated fuel pump and preferably new arp bolts. Thats all got to be fitted as well so your looking at something on the order pf 2 grand plus the 900 quid that the exhaust & induction costs you. You can chuck in the costs of some new AP front barkes as well 'cos you'll need to stop the damm thing. Grand total of around 4500. And thats doing it the cheap way liek RC developments do - some people might choose to take more precautiosn like bigger intercooler etc..

Oh and before anyone says, just removing teh boost solenoid grommet costs nothing but it won't give you proper sustained & smooth boost delivery and at least on a 6 you're likely to get fuel cuts all day long.

Whilst I don't belive that decatted evo's are getting 330bhp or that 350 is possible with 500 quid ! LOL ! Its obvious that when you do mod the evo its a lot more stable than a scooby. In line with this, 380-ish is readily achievable and beyond. I saw a car the other day that is about to have a 2.2 stroker kit added .... no sacrifice to low down torque, 1.5bar, expected to be around 450bhp.

Why do people have to try and justify the price difference between a uk sti and an evo7 in any case. Like someone said, if you can afford 27K then you can afford 31K and if you can't then tough .... the E7 is more expensive cos they know they can get teh money and thats what they think its worth ... doesn't necessarily have to be the same price as an sti ... why should it, its a completely different car. A noble M12 is 45K, a TVR Tamora 35K ... they're probably about the same acceleration but so what ??? Me, I'd take the Noble.

jackal

In any case, for me the whole point of the evo ownership is taking advantage of the secondhand market and the bad depreciation that has been pointed out elsewhere on this thread. Unless you got money to burn why buy any car new (unless its a porsche).

Go and buy an EVO7 for 31K and I'll buy a used RS450 that Ralliart has up for sale for 29K and have 2K for a years trackdays left over. Low mileage, 380bhp, full antilag and almost as much torque as the wrc car (420 ft/lb). After you've spent 7K with RC taking your 7 to 380bhp it still won't be half the spec of the RS450 and thats 7K i'll put into a second car like a supersport Caterham. I'll have indestructible all-weather fun in the RS450 but the Caterham will teach me how to drive.

Just a theory of course :-)

Sam Elassar

jackal look at my post both the 7 and the 6 have got different ecus. the evo 7 ecu is mapped to 1.5bar so that is no fuel cuts, no fuel pump problems, no injectors problems. think of the standard 7 as a 6 with sports ecu if it helps. this only means that it is easier to extract power out of the 7 than the 6.

and the other point that you seem to have missed is that similar engines will run similar powers at similar boost levels. i phoned ralliart and they said that although my car is standard, it seem to be run more boost than standard. according to ralliart most evos put out between 280-290bhp. surely decatting a car and the higher boost will be worth something? i got 320 on the rollers but i think it is more near 300bhp as the transimission loses should not be 100bhp!!!!!! so what do you think 0.3 of a bar is worth?

jason b

CARL I WILL BE MOST!!!! HAPPY!!! TO TAKE UP YOUR BET!!!!!

jason b

CARL I WILL BE MOST!!!! HAPPY!!! TO TAKE UP YOUR BET!!!!!

jason b

Sorry about the double click guys, anyway after reading all i think a point that is being overlooked is that offical figures that are produced for publication into the market are due to japan's government regulations but nothing has ever been signed by any of the parties involved and is more of a handshake ( most likely a golden-one ) that does not come under-review and is not regulated (economics are invloved), i mean do you really think that a skyline is only 276 come on guys, and even more so is that they run on 104-5/even6 ron are some of you F***ing DUMB!!!!
Please!!!
J

juan

Neil,

roughly:
30 grand gets a nice new evo 7 GSR
25 grand gets a nice new evo 7 RS (import I guess)
18-20 grand gets a very nice evo 6 (second hand)

How much is an sti? 20K? If so then I grant you thats not a bad price.

How much is a UK M3? I thought they were getting on for 40K but must admit I've not checked the prices.

If you've tried both and come up with a scooby then thats completely fair enough. Not considered a nearly new evo 6 instead?

[Edited by juan - 1/12/2002 9:03:16 PM]

Neil Smalley

Juan

I'd love an Evo 6. But the wife think it looks awful
I actually prefered the Evo 7(only just). But the running costs and price are just too much, better to have something that's 99.9% of what you want and keep it; than get what you want only to regret it later.

[Edited by Neil Smalley - 1/12/2002 9:46:09 PM]

[Edited by Neil Smalley - 1/12/2002 9:48:19 PM]

LitchfieldImports

I agree with you Sam, the std EVO 7 I had produced 286 bhp on Powerstation's RR and that was only after its 1,000 mile oil change . It got even faster over the next couple of thousand miles and the new owner reports another jump after 9,000 miles .

Iain

droid42

John,

"35% drivetrain losses do not seem uncommon on AWD vehicles amongst the RR results. 2WD seems to be about 25%"

Unfortunately this is yet another myth propagated by optimistic rolling road results and tuner BS.

There is NO accurate way to measure transmission losses on a rolling road because the various methods they use to "guess" the losses don't do it while the transmission is actually subject to maximum power in the first place. e.g. coastdown losses are measured during overrun, which means zero power being fed through the drivetrain. If zero power is being fed through the drivetrain, how can the power losses at full throttle be measured? They can't.

Unfortunately, the 35%/25% figure you quote are not "results", they are extrapolation of the guesses/estimates that the rolling roads are making themselves. More realistic numbers are more like 25%/17% (even that 25% might be too high).

My own car is RWD and examples have been rollered at around 300/305bhp depending on where (US or Europe). If it really loses 25% through the transmission, that makes it up to 406bhp. Hmmm. If it loses only as much as 20% that gives it up to 380bhp. I don't think so!

(Hint ... it probably has somewhere between 340-350bhp at the flywheel)

Ian.

jackal

Tell me, what has price got to do with performance anyway. Just 'cos an evo is a few thou more than an sti does it have to be 10% faster to 100mph & 1/4 mile. What sort of philosophy is that ?

If you want price per pound then put a 650bhp chevy V8 on a qualcast concord and have done with it: 0-60 in 0 seconds.

Porkers aren't that fast but a boxter is way more than an evo or sti and a 996 is double the price. But that never stopped Pork shifting 25,000 units a year.

john banks

So Ian if all the assumptions on RR's are false why does the Powerstation one for example tend to show figures which are roughly factory for most unmodified cars? Maybe some assumptions are false, but how about PAW as a comparison - Sam is getting almost the same in a hardly touched Evo 7 as he got on a heavily modded UK Scooby. This particular RR is as conservative as they come FFS!

I am not a great believer in RR either, but we can't all bench dyno our engines!

droid42

John,

I think PAW is an excellent measurement and is the only one you should ever look at (for comparison purposes) when you want to know how effective your latest tuning effort has been. After all, it's not power at the flwheel that makes you go forwards quickly, it's power at the driven wheels.

If anything, many RRs are pessimistic when it comes to measuring PAW due to wheelslip (esp. ultra-high torque-at-the-wheels cars)

Ian.

GaryC

At the end of the day a UK STI costs £25k, a Prodrive Style (a compulsory option IMO as the std looks as bad as the WRX) takes it to £27.5k The Official Evo7 costs £30k. By the time you add in the extra kit and extra power that brings it to as near as dammit level - so as it always has been, it comes down to personal preference

The arguement of cheap modifying to get the STi to EVO performance is crap as the same modifications can be done to the EVO just as cheap and move the advantage on again.

Looks are another personal thing. I think they both look awful. The Impreza just ugly but without its mean-ness, the EVO just looks bland and like a Vectra. (each of the 4 or 5 EVO7s I have seen on the road I initially thought were Vectra GSIs

Residual values will be equally horrendous, the re-style of the Impreza being the nail in the coffin for the STi (unless the restyling makes it even uglier than it currently is god forbid )

So its just down to personal opinion on styling, exhaust note, brand loyalty(?), handling etc etc etc

The EVO will be the biggest threat to the STI and STI will be the biggest threat to the EVO.

juan

most comments on here are fair. everyone has their preferences.
The daftest comment is 'game, set and match to Subaru'!

I think one factor is that the scooby is probably a 'safer' car to buy (probably lower maintenance costs, larger secondhand market, more garages willing to support em etc.)

GaryC

Double post

[Edited by GaryC - 1/14/2002 1:32:41 PM]

GaryC

Do not buy these cars with a sensible or 'safe' persepctive, buy with the heart not the head or you will get depressed

My Impreza lost £12500 in value in 16 months and altogether cost me over £22k to run for that 16 months

Great car, phenominal even - but don't try and cost it out!!

juan

Neither is cheap. I'm just saying I reckon the Scooby is cheaper to run and easier to sell, and that could be another factor people consider.

If money's no object I can't understand anyone taking one over an evo, but hey, we've done that one already!! :-)

Regards,
Juan


[Edited by juan - 1/14/2002 1:58:49 PM]

Corner

Greggers

Have a butchers:

http://www.jackals-forge.com/lotus/evo/evop1.html

ajw

An evo 7 looking like an vectra gsi - for christ sake - say something intelligent

Neil Smalley

Bad news for the Evo IMHO.
The STI is 5 grand cheaper, the M3 is 1K more on Import and evo residuals are even worse than Subaru's. A 4,500 mile service interval and a 48 litre tank mean £££££ to run and a 150 mile range

If I recall the RS version has no ABS, AYC or other such high tech gadgets.

Evo 7's now being sold for around the 23K mark.

When Prodrive issue a PPP for the STI, as is VERY highly probable you'll have a car that'll be as quick as an Evo for 3K less.

Mitusbishi have stuffed up IMHO, which is a shame because I was considering one for my next car.

[Edited by Neil Smalley - 1/10/2002 11:21:00 PM]

Spanpody.

Guys the prices are as follows:

EVO VII RS : £24,995
EVO VII GSR : £29,995

From www.ralliartuk.com


[Edited by Spanpody. - 1/11/2002 7:55:06 AM]

juan

Neil,

Get a grip mate. Do you know the idea behind the RS.
Its a lightweight stripped down version. ie. no ABS etc.

Makes it faster and more at the mercy of the driver.

You compare evo7 price to imported M3. why not compare imported evo price to imported M3?

Standard evo will hammer your standard scoob.
Like sensible bloke said - you have to spend plenty on mods to keep up. But what if evobloke then mods his a bit. You're in trouble!

:-)

pay for what you get me thinks.
Sure you have frequent service and small fuel tank, but everyone who buys one knows this and gladly take that baggage. Take one for a test drive before criticising. Then at least you are a little more qualified to sl@g em off.
If you're really considering one then take a test drive and I'll be surprised if you don't have one.

Regards

[Edited by juan - 1/11/2002 10:45:44 AM]

Neil Smalley

Yes I do know why the RS is there, as I said it's a basis for competition. Just like the stripped out Scoob type RA. The RS IS a quick car, just that me being a 'normal' driver, rather than a 'god' driver like SDB could get a GS to go quicker because of all the extra gubbins in it that help me out.

What I was doing was saying that you can buy a stripped down car with no creature comforts, poo brakes and no trick diffs for the same price as a UK Sti, that has creature comforts(some), good brakes and trick diffs.

You import comment was fair enough. For every day use the M3 is the better car, better than a scoob and Evo. I was correct saying that an M3 was in reach of the Evo's target price and therefore should be considered a competitor no matter where you get them from

The modding issue is to me a moot point, because I let anyone past if they want to get by me that badly.

I think you got the tone of my post wrong. I was'nt slagging them off, quite the opposite and Hardly sounds like someone slagging it off does it??

I'm more disapointed that Mitsubishi have priced themselves out of my custom, both in RRP,servicing and fuel costs.


[Edited by Neil Smalley - 1/11/2002 11:02:33 AM]