SimonM

I have just sent an e-mail to Racelogic, the main importers of Blitz in the UK to request that they make a post on this topic and put forward their point of view. Hopefully they will be able to offer a solution/explanation as to why some people have experianced problems with this product.

Thanks

SimonM


[This message has been edited by SimonM (edited 07 December 2000).]

Blitz UK

Hi there,
I'm from Racelogic, official UK importers for Blitz products, and I've been asked by Simon M of Scoobynet fame to give an explanation/solution to the apparenent problems the Blitz induction kits are causing to Sunaru air flow sensors. There is a problem. I don't think any of us can deny that, but as far as Blitz UK are concerned, and I'm sure any reputable tuning company or mechanic worth their salt will agree, the problem is a fragile design of MAF. The Blitz stainless steel filter has a micron rating of 200. Now, the hair on my legs has a width, yes width, of between 100-150 micron. This should at least bring the problem into context. Not all models have this problem with the MAF though, the earlier models (pre-version 5) don't seem to have any problems at all. If you do have a later model then changing even the standard panel filter can disturb enough collected dust to blow the sensor. I would not assume under any circumstances that fitting any other make of induction kit will stop this problem from re-occuring. The MAF is just too fragile and sooner or later the problem will repeat itself, regardless of the induction kit used, fact. We sell these filters for a whole range of other Japanese cars without ANY problems at all. It is the best selling filter in Japan because it is the best filter in Japan.

Hope this has cleared a few things up for you, if you must point the figure of blame at somebody, please make it Subaru!

chiark

Lee, they're not bothered about longevity because they can just ship 'em over here for good money (joke, before there's a fatwa declared on chiark)

So, general concensus is that the K&N unit's a good 'un then and meets filtration standards?

If so, the legendary yorkshire wallet may be opening.

david

I've been running with a Blitz for about 15,000 miles, no problems at all. Car drives lovely, spins up very quickly, IMHO, blitz is an ideal companion to my full SS 'zuast.

My view on this is as follows,

people on this board have vested interests,
a minor problem can easily be blown out of proportion (what I call paranoia factor, people quite rightly don't want to damage their pride and joy 'so if one person says it's bad, it must be')
it seems that every aftermarket product goes through this procedure, people love it then hate it
it would be far more substantial to know exactly how many people have had problems with Blitz, and to also know exactly what the problem was (bad fitting, was it definitely dust that caused engine problems etc etc)

these views are not aimed at anyone, just thought I'd make my point.

I seem to remember a thread a while back about Blitz and how they need to be secured properly (ie use more than one bracket) to prevent vibration and ensure against air flow meter breakage), also, while I'm on one, all the foam filters got slated a while back regarding oil contamination.

So to extend this thread further, what is the definitive best air filter? the options that come to mind are...

Blitz
ITG Panel
RamAir Panel
PiperX (cone/panel)
K&N (cone/panel)
Ram Pod (mushroom, is this what the rally boys use?)

Dave

sgould

Confirmation:

I have just spoken to Regal Autosport who have confirmed this with Racelogic.

The Blitz filter is one of the best around. It apparently has a multi layered filter system. You are more likely to get problems with K&N and other cotton and foam filters because they use oil to keep their size and condition, which the blitz doesn't. It is possible for this oil to be sucked through onto the air flow meter, causing problems. As for dust, it is very unlikely for this to get through the blitz filter if you look after it.

They said they have fitted around 4 Blitz filters a week for a year now with no known problems.

Hope this helps put peoples mind at rest. If you want to speeck further about anything about the Blitz then I sujest phoning them.

sgould

Well said David.

We can all admit there is a lot of truth in what you said.

dowser

Ummm - ITG panel doesn't use oil.... I've now done 60'000k's with one and may even replace it soon!

Only issue I've heard with the ITG was some dealer in Portugal (I think?) trying to wriggle out of a warranty engine failure....letting too much air through, or something

Richard

sgould

I don't think they meant all foam and cotton filters use oil, and I don't think they meant they you will ever get any problems with them (they do supply them as well), I think they were trying to put it into perspective.

Like I said I have had a K&N on my last car, and thought it made a lovely sound and had no problems with it at all. I went for a Blitz this time because the K&N made no performance difference at all, I proved this my putting it on a rolling road.

I wounder just how many people have replaced there standard filters and out of these how many have had problems. Its just like Watchdog, Ann will slag something off even though it is only a tiny % that have had problems.

[This message has been edited by sgould (edited 08 December 2000).]

dowser

I guess, to be complete, we should also discuss the merits of panel filter/resonator removal vs. full under-bonnet induction mods.

Replacing the panel for an ITG made no difference - removing the resonator a few months later made a huge one to throttle pick-up.

I fail to see how an under-bonnet induction kit can improve performance unless you're also feeding it cold air from somewhere. Just bolting on an induction kit will give increased airflow of hot air....imho, of course!

If anyone could prove this theory wrong I'd invest in one...until then I'll stick with my removed resonator cold-air induction thingy.

Light touch paper and stand well back

Richard
(edited 'cos sgould replied before I posted)

[This message has been edited by dowser (edited 08 December 2000).]

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

Let me get this straight....

If the car works fine in standard form, and left that way it's way.

If we want to modify the car with a Blitz air inductor, and an issue occurs with the air meter, it Subaru's fault!!!

I'm curious, surely it should be the responsibility of the manufacturers of the aftermarket items, to make sure they work with whatever car, fragile or not!!!

If it's a known problem with the car, then something should be done by Blitz.

Just a thought
Andy

Pete Croney

I was going to stay right out of this one, but there are a couple of things that should be mentioned.

ITG invented the current Biltz air filter. They used to manufacture all of Blitz's air filters, but the contract ended a couple of years ago. The filter was designed for use on RACE cars, not road cars.

As Julian has pointed out, the Blitz filters to 200 micron. The comparison with hair width puts the size into perspective (sic). But consider that the Subaru paper filter and all good foam/cotton filters will filter down to 10 micron and then this value deserves attention.

Not only do MAF sensors fail, but so do turbos. A piece of sand, 200 micron big has very little mass. But colide it with a fragile turbo intake impeller, travelling at 750mph (tip speed), and it might as well be a house brick.

I'll stick with 10 micron thanks.

carl

200 microns is enormous! That's a fifth of a millimeter. If you've ever seen what sub-micron particles do in hypervelocity impacts you wouldn't want 200 micron particles hitting your turbo spinning at 80,000 rpm.

Blitz UK

Changing the standard panel filter can and has caused air flow sensors to fail. Not even touching the induction system and just driving the car as it's intended, can and has caused them to fail. Why is this just our fault? It's a common and well known problem with these cars which Subaru can easily rub their hands of because most vehicles have induction kits of one make or the other fitted. Please try and look at the bigger picture. Other aftermarket induction kit manufacturers experience the same problems with certain models of Impreza. Unfortunately there is no certain way of stopping this problem, not even leaving your car as standard. Please try to understand this and see our side of the problem as well.

Best regards,
AD

logiclee

So what we are saying is :-

Apart from the MAF sensor issue, 200 microns is not only letting airborne dust through wich can cause wear but larger particles which can cause damage?

Lee

carl

Measures of air quality in cities use the PM10 measure, which is a measure of the particulates down to about 10 microns. I think there's a lot of dust in the 10-20 micron range. Bear in mind that you can buy 10 micron cling film, so it's not as small as you think.

So, in summary, theres quite a lot of stuff in the sub 200 micron range that you don't want near your impeller blades or combustion chamber.

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

I didn't for one minute want to imply that all failures were your fault!!

I haven't heard of these problems with standard cars, if that's the case then I'm sorry for anything that is implied with my comments.

I'm just saying that the panel filters that caused the problems, was due to the oil in the filter!! So that is really the manufacturers fault, not Subaru's!!!

If this is a known problem with Subaru's, I'm just curious as to why Blitz have not modified the design of the filter, or given warnings that the sensor may fail (due to Subaru design)!!

Comments??




[This message has been edited by Andy Tang (edited 08 December 2000).]

chiark

So let's get this straight... Blitz are blaming Subaru for not designing their AFM to work with aftermarket parts?

Wow. How silly of them

dowser

There's three main problems as I understand it (no expert, just from reading posts over the last 12 months!);

1.) Any incorrectly fitted induction kit that's allowed to rattle around too much can/will cause the MAF to fail - especially the later ones.

2.) Any oiled filter can contaminate the MAF which can/will cause the MAF to fail - especially (or is that *only*?) the later ones.

3.) An air filter should...well, filter...to more than 200 microns. Seems the Blitz doesn't do this. This will increase turbo wear (possibly leading to failure) and allow crap that gets past the turbo to also enter the engine or contaminate the intercooler.

Richard

Stef

Blitz UK.
Firstly, thanks for taing the time to explain the situation from your point of view.
I don't think anyone is denying the quality of your products, but as you have said yourself there is a problem when fitting your air filter to certain Imprezas. Therefore, surely this product is not suitable for these Imprezas?
Whilst the earlier cars have no problems, that's not what owners of current cars want to hear. They are concerned about their cars, and rightly so.
Perhaps it would be better if Blitz addressed the problem directly rather than blame the manufacturer? It seems that the Blitz filter does not filter sufficiently well enough when combined with the film sensors. Surely therefore, it doesn't filter sufficiently full-stop?
I presume you've only heard of these problems on Subaru's?

Stef.

Blow Dog

Stef,
I don't think it is restricted to the Subaru fraternity. I hear the Evo boys are having similar problems, heard this from a couple of after market tuners.

Cem

sunilp

Some people just wont listen will they, thinking everything we say is hearsay..............

Daryl

So, after listening to all of the expert opinions, I'm none the wiser. If I fit my new Blitz air filter and only drive my car when it's raining, it might solve the dust problem........and I'll have more fun!

buddy

hi,
a panel filter is quite sufficient when using full de cat exhaust system!!(preferably hks or k@n)

sgould

I have been quoted around £1000 for a full prodrive exhaust as used by the rally Subaru.
All it is is a decatted exchaust with a pro drive stamp on it - Don't think I will get that! Would be nice though

R19KET

It's already been pointed out, that in a recent Japanese filter test, including K&N, HKS, and Apexi, the Blitz came out the worst, along with the HKS.

"Best seller", DOESN'T mean "BEST PRODUCT". Very few people buy products based on what would ACTUALLY be BEST for their application, but are influenced by marketing, and emotions.

Filters are a compromise. Common sense should tell us that if based on the same surface area, one filter flows more air, than another, it CAN'T be filtering as well.

I'm convinced that the paper filters do the BEST job, but I'm prepared to compromise, and fit a filter that flows more air, whilst trying to retain some margin of safety. I don't use an air flow meter

Ideally we would retain a paper filter, but double it's surface area.

Blitz UK have now stated that there are some issues using their filter on post '98 cars. This is due to the "hot film sensor", getting damaged from the debrie the Blitz filter doesn't filter out.

This "debrie" is still passing through the filter on the "pre" '99 cars, but the "hot wire" sensor is more robust.

Personally, I don't want debrie that is big enough to damage a sensor, hitting my turbo compressor wheel when it's travelling at the speeds mentioned ( and our turbo's can spin at speeds as high as 160,000rpm !). Nor do I want it to find it's way into my engine, as it certainly will.

As for "oil contamination" from the cotton, and foam filters, there were some problems with one or two brands. This again, is a "filter" problem, not a fault with the sensors, and latterly, most oil contamination problems are due to over enthusiastic re-oiling by the owners.

From OUR point of view, YOUR point of view is IRRELEVENT. You have admitted that there ARE PROBLEMS with your filter on some cars, and it's about time you rectified them. Some people have been warning about this problem for months, and you are obviously aware of it.

Given this, are you prepared to compensate all of the owners that have had sensor failures, whilst using your product ??????

Mark.



[This message has been edited by R19KET (edited 09 December 2000).]

Blow Dog

took your time mark...

R19KET

Cem,

Well I read the original post, and thought, last time I commented on the Blitz, I just got slapped down, by people who are more interested in what a product looks like, than what it's doing for them

Now if only the Blitz WORKED, as good as it looks........

Mark.

Spence27

Hi all

Sounds to me like the bottom line is this:

1-'older' scooby-doos are ok fitting blitz filters, as long as they are prepared to potentially risk their turbo and engine innards (which may or may not be an issue) - MAF sensor should be ok though

2-newer scoobies fitting the blitz risk all the above

3-untouched old scoobies should have the best chance of not failing with anything related to the filter

4-untouched new scoobies might have problems anyway because of the sensitive newer MAF

5-non-oil paper filters maintain the best compromise of air flow and filtration

6-standard scoobie filter...? dunno about how large the micron size is for this...but in theory, this one should give best longevity it seems. Probably why they fit it in the first place, because they don't care if it restricts it slightly, because it's 200+bhp anyway and people might want it to last as long as possible.

ok that was bottom line(s) and a bit of opinion...

just thought i'd chip in anyway!

cheers
Alex