are you sick of triers
27 November 2000, 03:56 PM
#35
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Oh dear....
once again people are trying to compare different tools with the inevitable result that noone can agree on anything. Let's make no mistake here, each of the cars mentioned thus far (well, the ones dwelt upon) are very good at what they do.
The M5 is after all a sporty saloon, something that will devour motorway miles without any ill-effects on it's pilot. Engage the loud pedal and it will pull past most things on the King's Highway. Get it on the twisties and it's still quite capable but it's like an aligator out of water, sure it's still quite potent but it's not where it's most at home!
The Scoob is designed to be up and down the 'box more times in a minute than most people have hot dinners, it's made to cover tricky terrain quickly, with some sacrifice of NVH in favour of outright grip. Driving 6 hours in a Scoob isn't bad, but it's not quite the same experience as a beemer now is it? It does, arguably, have more driver involvement, but even there it gives way to more "involving" cars, which generally have the engine in the middle :-)
Also, comparing a road going Impreza (or Lancer) to a WRCar is complete nonsense. About the only thing that remains is the shell and the engine block. Unless someone out there has active differentials? 18+ point rollcage which stiffens the shell so much that the extra 250% rigidity in the new-age Impreza in roadgoing version is inconsequential? Carbon fibre seats? Turbo life of at most *ONE* day? UKP 10k worth of engine management? Don't think I need to go on, but needless to say that up to its design top speed a WRCar would leave pretty much any road car in its dust.
What it all boils down to is that for each set of circumstances, there is a "most appropriate" "tool" for the job. For some things it may be a Scoob, for others maybe a BMW (but why not get something like a Bentley Turbo R? :-)
As for the Max Power brigade, don't be foolishly mistaken in believing that the Scoob will definitely be faster in a straight line. A well sorted Nova with the 2 litre DOHC engine and QED internals with murder a Scoob, probably even an STi or a 22B in a straight line. Why? Because it weighs less, has lower transmission loss, and for equal pressure a higher specific output. And while you're contemplating the cost of said "silly" Nova, don't forget that it will be less than the Scoob.... how "silly" is it now? Still, I'de take the Scoob any day :-)
Cheers,
Pat.
once again people are trying to compare different tools with the inevitable result that noone can agree on anything. Let's make no mistake here, each of the cars mentioned thus far (well, the ones dwelt upon) are very good at what they do.
The M5 is after all a sporty saloon, something that will devour motorway miles without any ill-effects on it's pilot. Engage the loud pedal and it will pull past most things on the King's Highway. Get it on the twisties and it's still quite capable but it's like an aligator out of water, sure it's still quite potent but it's not where it's most at home!
The Scoob is designed to be up and down the 'box more times in a minute than most people have hot dinners, it's made to cover tricky terrain quickly, with some sacrifice of NVH in favour of outright grip. Driving 6 hours in a Scoob isn't bad, but it's not quite the same experience as a beemer now is it? It does, arguably, have more driver involvement, but even there it gives way to more "involving" cars, which generally have the engine in the middle :-)
Also, comparing a road going Impreza (or Lancer) to a WRCar is complete nonsense. About the only thing that remains is the shell and the engine block. Unless someone out there has active differentials? 18+ point rollcage which stiffens the shell so much that the extra 250% rigidity in the new-age Impreza in roadgoing version is inconsequential? Carbon fibre seats? Turbo life of at most *ONE* day? UKP 10k worth of engine management? Don't think I need to go on, but needless to say that up to its design top speed a WRCar would leave pretty much any road car in its dust.
What it all boils down to is that for each set of circumstances, there is a "most appropriate" "tool" for the job. For some things it may be a Scoob, for others maybe a BMW (but why not get something like a Bentley Turbo R? :-)
As for the Max Power brigade, don't be foolishly mistaken in believing that the Scoob will definitely be faster in a straight line. A well sorted Nova with the 2 litre DOHC engine and QED internals with murder a Scoob, probably even an STi or a 22B in a straight line. Why? Because it weighs less, has lower transmission loss, and for equal pressure a higher specific output. And while you're contemplating the cost of said "silly" Nova, don't forget that it will be less than the Scoob.... how "silly" is it now? Still, I'de take the Scoob any day :-)
Cheers,
Pat.
27 November 2000, 04:21 PM
#36
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Pat,
Where would a 200bhp nova find traction from with all that horsepower through the front wheels it would just dance all over the place as soon as you dropped the clutch, its ok having power but everything else must be in conjunction ie chassis, suspension, balance, weight distribution etc
I have come up against a few of these wolfs in sheeps clothing and dissmissed them from the road with great ease!!
Buddy,
Where would a 200bhp nova find traction from with all that horsepower through the front wheels it would just dance all over the place as soon as you dropped the clutch, its ok having power but everything else must be in conjunction ie chassis, suspension, balance, weight distribution etc
I have come up against a few of these wolfs in sheeps clothing and dissmissed them from the road with great ease!!
Buddy,
27 November 2000, 05:21 PM
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Pat,
I don't quite agree with your 'comparing with a WRC is complete nonsense' comment.
Of course I know that a 'real' rally car is a different kettle of fish but as for the *closest* thing on the road to a rally car the Impreza, Evo and GTi-R ARE the closest Joe Public will ever get to one.
For me personally that is one of the reasons I wanted an impreza, people look at the thing and immediately think 'rally'. How many other cars (Evo and perhaps GTi-R included) do that? N O N E
It is all ultimately down to personal taste, as far as I am concerned you can keep your boring (if fast) BMW's. I'll stick with my Impreza and not give a sh*t what anyone thinks
so there!
I don't quite agree with your 'comparing with a WRC is complete nonsense' comment.
Of course I know that a 'real' rally car is a different kettle of fish but as for the *closest* thing on the road to a rally car the Impreza, Evo and GTi-R ARE the closest Joe Public will ever get to one.
For me personally that is one of the reasons I wanted an impreza, people look at the thing and immediately think 'rally'. How many other cars (Evo and perhaps GTi-R included) do that? N O N E
It is all ultimately down to personal taste, as far as I am concerned you can keep your boring (if fast) BMW's. I'll stick with my Impreza and not give a sh*t what anyone thinks
so there!
27 November 2000, 05:50 PM
#39
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Matt,
you ever drive an M5?
I am biased towards my car but I find it amazing how many people on here dismiss other cars so easily.
When comparing your Scoob and an M5, if it all comes down to, "well my car's better when it's wet and twisty", doesn't show a broad range of talents does it. Then I would assume the M5 is better at everything else.
And it's like watching a herd of sheep on here sometimes.
Unless it's a highly modifed Turbo, a UK car doesn't stand much chance against a new M5.
No offence meant in this, just be a little bit open minded at least.
you ever drive an M5?
I am biased towards my car but I find it amazing how many people on here dismiss other cars so easily.
When comparing your Scoob and an M5, if it all comes down to, "well my car's better when it's wet and twisty", doesn't show a broad range of talents does it. Then I would assume the M5 is better at everything else.
And it's like watching a herd of sheep on here sometimes.
Unless it's a highly modifed Turbo, a UK car doesn't stand much chance against a new M5.
No offence meant in this, just be a little bit open minded at least.
27 November 2000, 05:58 PM
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I am open minded believe it or not.
Yes, I have driven BMW's and think they are lovely, great, fab etc but they are simply not 'me'.
Don't be offended by my stance on BM's, unfortunately many experiences I have with them on the road are not pleasant ones.
Ultimately this argument will never be settled in any way, shape or form. We like our cars because they agree with something inside us, that something just may not be in someone else.
I think that all of the recent comments regarding scooby owners are completely unjustified. The same mentality is displayed by BMW, Mercedes, Rover, Ford, Peugeot, etc owners (i.e. they simply like their cars).
I had a great 'debate' today with a 306 S16 owner. He found it highly amusing that Peugeot won the world rally championship. Of course Peugeots are 'better' than scoobies now.
Oddly enough when I asked him to put his money where his mouth was he declined for some reason?
[This message has been edited by mattski (edited 27 November 2000).]
Yes, I have driven BMW's and think they are lovely, great, fab etc but they are simply not 'me'.
Don't be offended by my stance on BM's, unfortunately many experiences I have with them on the road are not pleasant ones.
Ultimately this argument will never be settled in any way, shape or form. We like our cars because they agree with something inside us, that something just may not be in someone else.
I think that all of the recent comments regarding scooby owners are completely unjustified. The same mentality is displayed by BMW, Mercedes, Rover, Ford, Peugeot, etc owners (i.e. they simply like their cars).
I had a great 'debate' today with a 306 S16 owner. He found it highly amusing that Peugeot won the world rally championship. Of course Peugeots are 'better' than scoobies now.
Oddly enough when I asked him to put his money where his mouth was he declined for some reason?
[This message has been edited by mattski (edited 27 November 2000).]
27 November 2000, 06:25 PM
#42
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BHP/tonne - the New M5 struggles to match an unmodified STi. The previous (340hp) M5 is bettered by a standard PPP'd UK turbo. The two previous M5s have equal or poorer PTW than a standard UK Impreza.
Above 110/120..mph the beemer would pull away, but above 110/120 it is pretty irrelevant anyway
The new M5 is a fantstic peice of kit. I would swap my Impreza for one any, and everyday. But in real world performance, the M5 holds no advantage over an STi or 'decent' modified UK car - as my experiance shows, and the M5 drivers face confirmed
All with a cheapo japanese saloon....
Above 110/120..mph the beemer would pull away, but above 110/120 it is pretty irrelevant anyway
The new M5 is a fantstic peice of kit. I would swap my Impreza for one any, and everyday. But in real world performance, the M5 holds no advantage over an STi or 'decent' modified UK car - as my experiance shows, and the M5 drivers face confirmed
All with a cheapo japanese saloon....
27 November 2000, 06:35 PM
#43
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M5 owners will still not admit it but the sti is a better car.Ok the M5 it is powerfull and a good drivers car but it is designed also as a cruiser whereas the sti is rally inspired from the start and all the money has been spent on the driving aspect of the car and very little on luxury and comfort.Anyone can cover ground in a straight line quickly but involment comes into play on tight twisty roads.
BUDDY,
BUDDY,
27 November 2000, 06:42 PM
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I have to say that after reading through everything here I agree with Pat more than anyone else.
The old "my car is better than yours" argument is getting a little boring now and has been done many, many times before! - lets face it, it'll never be solved - somebody's always going to have something a little better...and anyone who comes onto a Subaru bulletin board like this one and makes comments like some of the above are bound to get a bit of a slating so why bother?? (not mentioning any names Mr. Stage 1 )
At the end of the day it's the old horses for courses scenario - if you want a comfortable, motorway mauler then you're obviously more likely to pick something like a BMW or a Merc, if you want a "budget" (in the loosest sense of the word!) sportscar, then you're far more likely to go for something like an Impreza.
Give it a rest...pleeaase!!!
Kelvin
[This message has been edited by kelvin (edited 27 November 2000).]
The old "my car is better than yours" argument is getting a little boring now and has been done many, many times before!
- lets face it, it'll never be solved - somebody's always going to have something a little better...and anyone who comes onto a Subaru bulletin board like this one and makes comments like some of the above are bound to get a bit of a slating so why bother?? (not mentioning any names Mr. Stage 1 )At the end of the day it's the old horses for courses scenario - if you want a comfortable, motorway mauler then you're obviously more likely to pick something like a BMW or a Merc, if you want a "budget" (in the loosest sense of the word!
) sportscar, then you're far more likely to go for something like an Impreza.Give it a rest...pleeaase!!!
Kelvin
[This message has been edited by kelvin (edited 27 November 2000).]
27 November 2000, 07:31 PM
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No - your all right, I give in. With 340bhp, lots of torque, RWD, an LSD and a good if heavy chassis the M5 could never be involving You really got me there - not that I would ever question is you are able to drive a rwd car to its full potential
Yip these scoobs with 4wd, ton of grip are a right involving drive - it must be the point and go that makes them so involving
I will admit that my friends type r is lots of fun with the diff set right to the rear but I heard it doesnt last long set there.
Martin
Ps - I drive a stinky old stage 1 chipped saff cossie at the moment that could never have the same power to weight as your scoobs
[This message has been edited by stage 1 (edited 27 November 2000).]
You really got me there - not that I would ever question is you are able to drive a rwd car to its full potential Yip these scoobs with 4wd, ton of grip are a right involving drive - it must be the point and go that makes them so involving
I will admit that my friends type r is lots of fun with the diff set right to the rear but I heard it doesnt last long set there.
Martin
Ps - I drive a stinky old stage 1 chipped saff cossie at the moment that could never have the same power to weight as your scoobs
[This message has been edited by stage 1 (edited 27 November 2000).]
27 November 2000, 07:44 PM
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No - I've got a flint grey one - only been on knockhill once at a night I arranged for me and my friends. Dont trust most of the nutters at the general public days. Will be out as scooby bate at the next sidc tracknights at knockhill though
Martin
Martin
27 November 2000, 08:02 PM
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Hmm I think I know who stage 1 is now, he's gonna get dumped on at the next sidc event.
I heard his Sierra thing's a bit slow and rubbish, he hasn't got a hope against a Scooby in that rust bucket don't listen to the shister anyone !
Pah Cossie owners
Gary
I heard his Sierra thing's a bit slow and rubbish, he hasn't got a hope against a Scooby in that rust bucket don't listen to the shister anyone !
Pah Cossie owners
Gary
27 November 2000, 09:31 PM
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Think we all have differences when it comes to "involvement"
A Cossie owners involvement is that his car can sometimes go quickly in a straightline
A Scoob gets involving on the limit - up to it it's pretty uninvolving (handling wise, not character etc etc)
Buddy - an STi is better for you. And me. But "better" - unless you've done something to yours, an M5 will give you a VERY hard time. And have you easily top end.
I'm not pro -BM - like I say, I just find it amazing how easily certain cars are dismissed.
I'd love a new M3 though - if it was a little quicker
A Cossie owners involvement is that his car can sometimes go quickly in a straightline
A Scoob gets involving on the limit - up to it it's pretty uninvolving (handling wise, not character etc etc)
Buddy - an STi is better for you. And me. But "better" - unless you've done something to yours, an M5 will give you a VERY hard time. And have you easily top end.
I'm not pro -BM - like I say, I just find it amazing how easily certain cars are dismissed.
I'd love a new M3 though - if it was a little quicker
27 November 2000, 09:55 PM
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Craig,
Have put a full hks super drager exhaust on there with f pipe and afr unit it goes like stink now and is so much more responsive on the throttle.Exiting corners feels so much better now (while the M5 is wallowing I am gone)
Regards
Buddy,
Have put a full hks super drager exhaust on there with f pipe and afr unit it goes like stink now and is so much more responsive on the throttle.Exiting corners feels so much better now (while the M5 is wallowing I am gone)
Regards
Buddy,
27 November 2000, 10:00 PM
#52
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is this ever gonna stop ?
I happen to like scoobs, some peeps happen to like upgraded panzer tanks, some people like Citreons (yes it's true)...different strokes for different folks me thinks.
I happen to like scoobs, some peeps happen to like upgraded panzer tanks, some people like Citreons (yes it's true)...different strokes for different folks me thinks.
28 November 2000, 09:23 PM
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Do you BMW owners not have your own chat rooms?Please disapear as your comments are utter tosh!!( I wouldnt even contemplate visiting any site about BMW owners ,so why visit ours)
28 November 2000, 09:41 PM
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BMW owners please go to your own sites,and stop trying to wind us up.
ps. I WOULD NEVER DREAM OF VISITING A BMW OWNERS CLUB SITE SO WHY COME TO OURS YOU ONLY GO AWAY WITH THE OLD TAIL BETWEEN THE LEGS!!!!!!!!!
ps. I WOULD NEVER DREAM OF VISITING A BMW OWNERS CLUB SITE SO WHY COME TO OURS YOU ONLY GO AWAY WITH THE OLD TAIL BETWEEN THE LEGS!!!!!!!!!
28 November 2000, 09:48 PM
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Buddy
You seem to be on another planet.
I get the impression you seem to look down on virtually any other car - you do not own the fastest or best car in the world.
You own a good car but not the best.
Like most of us on here own good cars.
you have something against BMW owners - maybe - those that buy M5s etc will not be your standard BMW tosspot.
Believe me, it will not be me running off with my tail between my legs......
You seem to be on another planet.
I get the impression you seem to look down on virtually any other car - you do not own the fastest or best car in the world.
You own a good car but not the best.
Like most of us on here own good cars.
you have something against BMW owners - maybe - those that buy M5s etc will not be your standard BMW tosspot.
Believe me, it will not be me running off with my tail between my legs......