Good news for the planet, less so for performance car owners
14 January 2007, 06:51 PM
#31
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Should I take offence at that 
It would I fear be pointless, as anyone in politics who's ever tried to change things for the benefit and good of mankind gets bumped out of office pretty sharp. Look at Kennedy, and to a lesser degree Clinton. Churchill was kept out of the loop until Chamberlain couldn't cope. Enoch Powell was exiled. Truth and politics don't mix.
It would I fear be pointless, as anyone in politics who's ever tried to change things for the benefit and good of mankind gets bumped out of office pretty sharp. Look at Kennedy, and to a lesser degree Clinton. Churchill was kept out of the loop until Chamberlain couldn't cope. Enoch Powell was exiled. Truth and politics don't mix.
14 January 2007, 07:00 PM
#32
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As the owner of a low polluting car I do love this subject and must apologise for my smug tone. Corradoboy, a very well written paragraph that was most unexpected from someone with such a chavy pseudonym. However, I fear that no number of well written words will stop the bureaucrats from having their way. Enjoy your cars while you can.
As the owner of a low emissions vehicle,what the hell are you doing on a high performance car forum..
. Or are you just one in a long line of the latest breed of Trolls we now have here?P.s some good comments Corradoboy , i do get a laugh at all these government brainwashed green types,who in most cases aren't as environmentally friendly as they like to think they are.
14 January 2007, 10:08 PM
#33
No offence meant!
You might make a real difference.
A government with credability would be a change and be able to make a change too.
There is never an explanation where the Green Tax goes and to what purpose is there. Wonder what happens if the question was asked?
Graham.
You might make a real difference.
A government with credability would be a change and be able to make a change too.
There is never an explanation where the Green Tax goes and to what purpose is there. Wonder what happens if the question was asked?
Graham.
14 January 2007, 10:20 PM
#34
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15 January 2007, 12:15 AM
#36
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15 January 2007, 12:34 AM
#37
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Oh, I call them a joke to be honest.
If this country gets any worse there will be a revolution of some kind soon. Yes I know the original topic is more on the international side but over here, our government uses taxation to "fix" a problem, no matter what the problem is.
Theres only so much the people will take before they react.
If this country gets any worse there will be a revolution of some kind soon. Yes I know the original topic is more on the international side but over here, our government uses taxation to "fix" a problem, no matter what the problem is.
Theres only so much the people will take before they react.
15 January 2007, 06:59 AM
#38
A Labour 'Blue Collar' party will not work, as all the jobs for them have been exported to China/India, along with the tools they used to use.
Interesting that this thread has gravitated to an old phrase, Money makes the World go round and it does in the end.
All the environmental 'stuff' is $$$$ related, cost to do this and that.
Those costs are met by tax, and the payer never seems to see a RELEVANT return.
Road tax taken far exceeds the expendature on roads.
Will the airline tax imposed in the quest for the environment be spend on engine development/noise issues etc? Doubt it.
Will the transport system be radically improved to tempt people off the roads? Doubt it.
And it will continue thus till we have a real Government who is really concerned with the issues instead of putting up more cameras and Civil Service offices.(presumably with TV monitors galore)
There will never be un-rest in the UK as we collectivly are too passive; the UK is the easiest country to Govern I'm told by the French and Italian people I know through work.
If the French don't like something the Government there is shown that in certain terms!
Graham.
Interesting that this thread has gravitated to an old phrase, Money makes the World go round and it does in the end.
All the environmental 'stuff' is $$$$ related, cost to do this and that.
Those costs are met by tax, and the payer never seems to see a RELEVANT return.
Road tax taken far exceeds the expendature on roads.
Will the airline tax imposed in the quest for the environment be spend on engine development/noise issues etc? Doubt it.
Will the transport system be radically improved to tempt people off the roads? Doubt it.
And it will continue thus till we have a real Government who is really concerned with the issues instead of putting up more cameras and Civil Service offices.(presumably with TV monitors galore)
There will never be un-rest in the UK as we collectivly are too passive; the UK is the easiest country to Govern I'm told by the French and Italian people I know through work.
If the French don't like something the Government there is shown that in certain terms!
Graham.
15 January 2007, 10:12 AM
#39
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The changes in emissions talk and the increased cost of cars as a result has all been done before. I remember when cars didn't have catalytic converters here in the uk, and remember them being introduced, must have been around the early 90's. There was all kinds of controversy about that, and at the time reports were that it would add £400 to the cost of a new car and this would mean less people buy cars etc etc. It's the same now, only £400 in the 90's has become £1600 now.
All this talk of global warming being caused by vehicle emissions is a big smoke screen for increasing tax though as already stated. Take the recent increases in road tax, are they designed to force big cars off the road ? No. The increase is just enough to get in some extra revenue and is unlikely to make many people get a smaller car.
Mr Brown seems to have made it his mission in life to use any possible excuse to introduce a new tax or hike up an existing one. I don't like the man, nor do I like Dawn Primarolo, they are both too taxing for my liking. If global warming stopped then they would introduce something else, central heating tax maybe. It's about time they cut the crap and stopped wasting our money.
All this talk of global warming being caused by vehicle emissions is a big smoke screen for increasing tax though as already stated. Take the recent increases in road tax, are they designed to force big cars off the road ? No. The increase is just enough to get in some extra revenue and is unlikely to make many people get a smaller car.
Mr Brown seems to have made it his mission in life to use any possible excuse to introduce a new tax or hike up an existing one. I don't like the man, nor do I like Dawn Primarolo, they are both too taxing for my liking. If global warming stopped then they would introduce something else, central heating tax maybe. It's about time they cut the crap and stopped wasting our money.
15 January 2007, 10:23 AM
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A couple of years back Tony Blair says to Gordon Brown:
'Hey Gordo, I'm going to invade Iraq with me old mate GW, and it's gunna cost a bomb. You'd better think up a new way of getting some extra tax that we won't get booted out for, none of that poll tax malarky, something smart'.
'Alright To, I'll speak to Dawn and see if we can come up with something, maybe someone at HMRC has used the suggestion box.'
A while later:
'OK, Gordo's got the answer. We will pretend we are interested in global warming and want to do something to save the planet. In the next budget I'll announce that we're going to tax the global warmers. We won't tax them too much though or they might stop and then we won't get anything out of them. Heaven forbid the car owners might start using public transport.'
'Well done Gordo, think we're on to a winner ! Them voters are so gullible they'll easily fall for it. Tell you what, lets have a big conference somewhere flash and expensive so we can tell people and have a good party. Better invite Johnny P and his 2 jags.'
'Hey Gordo, I'm going to invade Iraq with me old mate GW, and it's gunna cost a bomb. You'd better think up a new way of getting some extra tax that we won't get booted out for, none of that poll tax malarky, something smart'.
'Alright To, I'll speak to Dawn and see if we can come up with something, maybe someone at HMRC has used the suggestion box.'
A while later:
'OK, Gordo's got the answer. We will pretend we are interested in global warming and want to do something to save the planet. In the next budget I'll announce that we're going to tax the global warmers. We won't tax them too much though or they might stop and then we won't get anything out of them. Heaven forbid the car owners might start using public transport.'
'Well done Gordo, think we're on to a winner ! Them voters are so gullible they'll easily fall for it. Tell you what, lets have a big conference somewhere flash and expensive so we can tell people and have a good party. Better invite Johnny P and his 2 jags.'
15 January 2007, 11:01 AM
#41
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Global warming is a natural event and is nothing to do with man. We live on a planet which is in close proximity to a star (the Sun) which is inexorably warming, and therefore our planet will warm with it. The surface of our planet is 90% water, which absorbs the energy from our Sun constantly, feeding our climate with limitless energy in quantities so inconceivable in proportion to man-made sources. It has been proved time and time again that human transportation in all its forms contributed less than 0.075% to global greenhouse gas production with very nearly all of it coming from nature. Twentyseven Land Rovers produce less during a 12k mile average years use each than a single cow. What I do believe however is that the masses have been brainwashed by the politicians and media into believing the hype and thus justifying new means of taxation. It's all about money. Every single discussion on climate involves reaction including taxation.
The planet will continue to do its thing long after man has gone, and that will thankfully mean the lying, two faced, cheating, bull****ting ******* politicians will have gone too.
The planet will continue to do its thing long after man has gone, and that will thankfully mean the lying, two faced, cheating, bull****ting ******* politicians will have gone too.
Also, to dismiss out of hand any element of global warming is nothing to do with Man at all is a bit dim IMHO.Don't let the availability of grants from the government for sustainable energy projects or less road fund licence for 'less polluting' cars get in the way of your argument of environment versus taxes either
It's not certain that Man is responsible for global warming, nor is it certain that it may be to do with the sun, cows nor indeed any factor. What you've seen or heard is just each groups opinions on the matter and their attempts to lobby more people into their way of thinking. It is true to some extent that this government is using more environmental taxes on 'heavier polluters', and I wouldn't mind this at all if the extra taxes were ring fenced and put to use for greener schemes or lower taxes for less polluting activities, but I suspect this will not be the case
15 January 2007, 01:10 PM
#42
Just to change the tone slightly for a second.
While getting my car remapped the police were taking a worrying interest as det cans lap top etc... were being set up in a motorway service station.
Had they come to ask us what we were doing the reply would have been
"errr, making it more economical officer"
Humanity is of course contributing to global warming, but the only thing that will really help is if 4 or 5 billion of us die and aren't replaced. As they say death and taxes
In the meantime remaps all round, purely for enviromental reasons
While getting my car remapped the police were taking a worrying interest as det cans lap top etc... were being set up in a motorway service station.
Had they come to ask us what we were doing the reply would have been
"errr, making it more economical officer"
Humanity is of course contributing to global warming, but the only thing that will really help is if 4 or 5 billion of us die and aren't replaced. As they say death and taxes
In the meantime remaps all round, purely for enviromental reasons
15 January 2007, 01:18 PM
#43
Completely agree with corradoboy there!
Fair enough high emissions are not goin to help the matter but if you look back through time the climate has changed several times.
There werent any cars to produce emissions beford the ice age were there???
Also annoys me that the people that are always going on about it are usually the people in the 5 litre range rovers being driven to work!
I also love the cut off point in the taxation classes, you may aswell have a 7 litre engine at the amount of tax on the highest band, if there were more divisions higher up the scale then maybe people would think twice
Fair enough high emissions are not goin to help the matter but if you look back through time the climate has changed several times.
There werent any cars to produce emissions beford the ice age were there???
Also annoys me that the people that are always going on about it are usually the people in the 5 litre range rovers being driven to work!
I also love the cut off point in the taxation classes, you may aswell have a 7 litre engine at the amount of tax on the highest band, if there were more divisions higher up the scale then maybe people would think twice
Was there a forest fire in Indonesia that pushed out the UK equivalent of 1 years C02 in two weeks, recently!!!!
15 January 2007, 01:21 PM
#44
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Global warming is a natural event and is nothing to do with man. We live on a planet which is in close proximity to a star (the Sun) which is inexorably warming, and therefore our planet will warm with it. The surface of our planet is 90% water, which absorbs the energy from our Sun constantly, feeding our climate with limitless energy in quantities so inconceivable in proportion to man-made sources. It has been proved time and time again that human transportation in all its forms contributed less than 0.075% to global greenhouse gas production with very nearly all of it coming from nature. Twentyseven Land Rovers produce less during a 12k mile average years use each than a single cow. What I do believe however is that the masses have been brainwashed by the politicians and media into believing the hype and thus justifying new means of taxation. It's all about money. Every single discussion on climate involves reaction including taxation.
The planet will continue to do its thing long after man has gone, and that will thankfully mean the lying, two faced, cheating, bull****ting ******* politicians will have gone too.
The planet will continue to do its thing long after man has gone, and that will thankfully mean the lying, two faced, cheating, bull****ting ******* politicians will have gone too.
More green taxes is simply 
15 January 2007, 01:40 PM
#45
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Only on Scoobynet could there be such certainty that global warming was nothing to do with man!
Healthy sceptisism is fine, but surely it's just plain stupid not to at least keep an open mind on the subject.
It's all too easy to justify not doing anything by putting up daft conspiracy theories as reasons why GW not happening.
To say that its a government driven issue is plain mad, the government only (very) recently woke up to the potential dangers (led by public opinion).
It's true to that China and other emerging ecconomies are going to drive the growth in CO2, but per capita its the West that uses massively more energy than China or any other developing ecconomy.
Now I'm not saying that global warming is or isn't driven by man (although all the imperical evidence is pointing that way), I'm just bemused by the fairly sweeping statements made on here about it.
Healthy sceptisism is fine, but surely it's just plain stupid not to at least keep an open mind on the subject.
It's all too easy to justify not doing anything by putting up daft conspiracy theories as reasons why GW not happening.
To say that its a government driven issue is plain mad, the government only (very) recently woke up to the potential dangers (led by public opinion).
It's true to that China and other emerging ecconomies are going to drive the growth in CO2, but per capita its the West that uses massively more energy than China or any other developing ecconomy.
Now I'm not saying that global warming is or isn't driven by man (although all the imperical evidence is pointing that way), I'm just bemused by the fairly sweeping statements made on here about it.
15 January 2007, 02:04 PM
#46
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Someone else with a modicum of common sense! It's a very complex area, and to make sweeping statements based on theories from whatever lobby has the louder voice is plain silly. When it comes down to it, there may be a multiplicity of reasons for changes in climate. These reasons may never come to light, and if they ever do it may be a long time ahead before anything can be proven one way or the other. In the meantime it could be argued that hedging bets and at least trying to limit the effects of Man may be in our best interests if it turns out we are in fact responsible.
15 January 2007, 02:06 PM
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I dont think there is anything wrong with lowering carbon emmisions, regardless fo yuor standpoint on the causes of climate change.
However, the government should start with building the infrastructure to give people an alternative to car use, rather then just charge them off the roads. WHat with rail prices having just gone up b an inflation busting amount, it hardly gives incentive to go by rail when it is cheaper to drive, or even fly.
Sort out public transport, give people a real alternative, - Offer a carrot, and not just a great big stick. Start by taxing the real luxuries - adding a fiver to the cost of a flight to Barbados, and then taxing people £1000 on thier car is not sending out a right message.
However, the government should start with building the infrastructure to give people an alternative to car use, rather then just charge them off the roads. WHat with rail prices having just gone up b an inflation busting amount, it hardly gives incentive to go by rail when it is cheaper to drive, or even fly.
Sort out public transport, give people a real alternative, - Offer a carrot, and not just a great big stick. Start by taxing the real luxuries - adding a fiver to the cost of a flight to Barbados, and then taxing people £1000 on thier car is not sending out a right message.
15 January 2007, 02:21 PM
#48
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Agreed with that. A carrot and stick approach is always the best way forward, however, this government likes the stick too much.
15 January 2007, 06:13 PM
#49
OK:
I accept the whole Green/carbon issue is very complex, riddled with alternative agendas and worst of all politicians.(plus a miriad of other things)
We cannot ignore it because of that though?
It can be broken down to more digestable lumps.
Tidal power generation instead of burning coal.
Hybrid car/lorries/buses instead of belching deisel.
Clean running planes instead of rainbow colours from fuel oil over our reservoirs.
Limiting birth globally (there's a big one to apply and 'sell')
Voicing a point of veiw on here or the local newspaper is good, be it sweeping statements or focused argument, all healthy stuff and not a troll anywhere!
Taxing a topic close to the public heart is the proven way as 'it is good for you' is the common way, having a Government actually sincerely attacking the issues would be refreshing but in the distance I fear.
I want to see the tax going into research, to Universities and colleges; to companies that can make a difference and have the ***** to do it.
Scotland has the ability/engineers and know-how to build and install tidal generators around England, will Blair and Gordon encourage them?
There is no one solution but there are many smaller ways to change the situation and benefit the environment, create wealth and employment (in the UK) and maybe sell that expertise on to the might of China and India.
The USA won't listen, they will simple use a big stick on those who have it already...is that China?
Now, there's a big bang waiting to happen.
We might get our population decrease yet!
Graham.
I accept the whole Green/carbon issue is very complex, riddled with alternative agendas and worst of all politicians.(plus a miriad of other things)
We cannot ignore it because of that though?
It can be broken down to more digestable lumps.
Tidal power generation instead of burning coal.
Hybrid car/lorries/buses instead of belching deisel.
Clean running planes instead of rainbow colours from fuel oil over our reservoirs.
Limiting birth globally (there's a big one to apply and 'sell')
Voicing a point of veiw on here or the local newspaper is good, be it sweeping statements or focused argument, all healthy stuff and not a troll anywhere!
Taxing a topic close to the public heart is the proven way as 'it is good for you' is the common way, having a Government actually sincerely attacking the issues would be refreshing but in the distance I fear.
I want to see the tax going into research, to Universities and colleges; to companies that can make a difference and have the ***** to do it.
Scotland has the ability/engineers and know-how to build and install tidal generators around England, will Blair and Gordon encourage them?
There is no one solution but there are many smaller ways to change the situation and benefit the environment, create wealth and employment (in the UK) and maybe sell that expertise on to the might of China and India.
The USA won't listen, they will simple use a big stick on those who have it already...is that China?
Now, there's a big bang waiting to happen.
We might get our population decrease yet!
Graham.
15 January 2007, 06:39 PM
#50
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As the owner of a low emissions vehicle,what the hell are you doing on a high performance car forum... Or are you just one in a long line of the latest breed of Trolls we now have here?
P.s some good comments Corradoboy , i do get a laugh at all these government brainwashed green types,who in most cases aren't as environmentally friendly as they like to think they are.
. Or are you just one in a long line of the latest breed of Trolls we now have here?P.s some good comments Corradoboy , i do get a laugh at all these government brainwashed green types,who in most cases aren't as environmentally friendly as they like to think they are.
16 January 2007, 08:54 PM
#51
This thread is refreshingly open minded and varied, free of troll influence and even interesting!
We may have finished the debate now, but all good conversations must come to an end I guess, but this subject is not finished with just yet.
Graham
We may have finished the debate now, but all good conversations must come to an end I guess, but this subject is not finished with just yet.
Graham
16 January 2007, 09:33 PM
#52
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Global warming is a natural event and is nothing to do with man. We live on a planet which is in close proximity to a star (the Sun) which is inexorably warming, and therefore our planet will warm with it. The surface of our planet is 90% water, which absorbs the energy from our Sun constantly, feeding our climate with limitless energy in quantities so inconceivable in proportion to man-made sources. It has been proved time and time again that human transportation in all its forms contributed less than 0.075% to global greenhouse gas production with very nearly all of it coming from nature. Twentyseven Land Rovers produce less during a 12k mile average years use each than a single cow. What I do believe however is that the masses have been brainwashed by the politicians and media into believing the hype and thus justifying new means of taxation. It's all about money. Every single discussion on climate involves reaction including taxation.
The planet will continue to do its thing long after man has gone, and that will thankfully mean the lying, two faced, cheating, bull****ting ******* politicians will have gone too.
The planet will continue to do its thing long after man has gone, and that will thankfully mean the lying, two faced, cheating, bull****ting ******* politicians will have gone too.
This environmental thing is just a fashion and an excuse to tax us more. I for one could'nt give a **** about the little if any damage a car brings to the planet. Its all bo11ocks. It just the planets natural course
16 January 2007, 09:58 PM
#53
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. If the world plays it safe then the worst that will happen is that we get cleaner air and different transport options. If we play it your way and we get it wrong all life as we know it is dead. No contest.
16 January 2007, 10:23 PM
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16 January 2007, 10:59 PM
#55
2003 prediction by the UN:
Now the Unep report warns that if the snowline rises by 300 metres - a quite likely scenario - only 63% of Swiss resorts will reliably provide good skiing.
BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Skiers could be hit by big thaw
2007 reality reported by Swiss newspaper
Apparently, 35% of Swiss ski resports have not opened for the season, because there is just no snow.
Tages-Anzeiger Online | Schweiz | Hoffen auf Schnee Ende Januar (German)
Damn those bloody experts.
Now the Unep report warns that if the snowline rises by 300 metres - a quite likely scenario - only 63% of Swiss resorts will reliably provide good skiing.
BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Skiers could be hit by big thaw
2007 reality reported by Swiss newspaper
Apparently, 35% of Swiss ski resports have not opened for the season, because there is just no snow.
Tages-Anzeiger Online | Schweiz | Hoffen auf Schnee Ende Januar (German)
Damn those bloody experts.
16 January 2007, 11:28 PM
#56
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2003 prediction by the UN:
Now the Unep report warns that if the snowline rises by 300 metres - a quite likely scenario - only 63% of Swiss resorts will reliably provide good skiing.
BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Skiers could be hit by big thaw
2007 reality reported by Swiss newspaper
Apparently, 35% of Swiss ski resports have not opened for the season, because there is just no snow.
Tages-Anzeiger Online | Schweiz | Hoffen auf Schnee Ende Januar (German)
Damn those bloody experts.
Now the Unep report warns that if the snowline rises by 300 metres - a quite likely scenario - only 63% of Swiss resorts will reliably provide good skiing.
BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Skiers could be hit by big thaw
2007 reality reported by Swiss newspaper
Apparently, 35% of Swiss ski resports have not opened for the season, because there is just no snow.
Tages-Anzeiger Online | Schweiz | Hoffen auf Schnee Ende Januar (German)
Damn those bloody experts.
Answer: February 1999 (Online NewsHour: Killer Avalanches -- February 25, 1999)
Hmmm, doesn't quite tie in with the global warming theory now does it. Perhaps extreme weather events are quite a poor way of assessing climatic changes? Just a thought.
PS. The record warmest month (according to satellite measurements) for global mean temperature was April 1998, just ten months earlier than the above record.
17 January 2007, 12:36 AM
#57
Pop quiz: when was the record highest snowfall in Switzerland?
Answer: February 1999 (Online NewsHour: Killer Avalanches -- February 25, 1999)
Hmmm, doesn't quite tie in with the global warming theory now does it. Perhaps extreme weather events are quite a poor way of assessing climatic changes? Just a thought.
Answer: February 1999 (Online NewsHour: Killer Avalanches -- February 25, 1999)
Hmmm, doesn't quite tie in with the global warming theory now does it. Perhaps extreme weather events are quite a poor way of assessing climatic changes? Just a thought.
Back on topic, I believe that global warming is happening and has accelerated in recent decades / years, as alpine glacial recession evidence would seem to bear out - including your extreme year, by the way. Whether or not human activities are the root cause or not, I can't tell you.
http://geoscience-meeting.scnatweb.c...chael_Talk.pdf
17 January 2007, 01:01 AM
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Whether or not human activities are the root cause or not, I can't tell you.
It is naive in the extreme to believe there is a "right" or "normal" climate for the earth. No such thing exists, it never has, and it never will. It is equally naive to believe we can somehow control climate, either by adding CO2, or (conversely) by not adding CO2. Nature would laugh in our faces over the belief that we puny humans are somehow interfering with climate.
Last edited by Sprint Chief; 17 January 2007 at 01:06 AM.
17 January 2007, 09:03 AM
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Sweet lord... I recently read the Monckton report as was posted on here late last year after being printed in the telegraph. I believe the contents. I believe it has far more credibility than the stern report.
I believe that data was omitted from the stern report that proves beyond doubt that hundreds of years before industrialisation the world was warmer than it is now or is forecast to be in the next century.
I believe that there is no logical reason for the climate change bandwagon other than green party(s) pressure and government led taxes.
Friends of the Earth and co banged on the nuclear drum during the 80's to no avail and needed a different angle to keep their funding alive... The government have seen it as a fantastic lever to levy more sterling from the publics pocket. Retailers such as M&S are now using it as a marketing tool, Banks such as HSBC now advertise they will donate to conservation projects...
The environmental drum bangs loud in all industrial sectors becasue the the industrial sectors will find angles to help it work for them... Look at the cost of a Toyota Prius
It's a clever ploy because people are like zombies... Keep telling people it affects their children and their childrens children, how all life will die and people will begin to listen.
Come up with buzzwords like "Carbon Footprint" FFS, and people have phrases they can assosciate with... Throw in a "report" that back all this up and BANG, half the population are brainwashed into thinking its a human caused effect.
Look up in the sky... See the big glowing orange thing peeking out from behind the clouds? Yep just there to the left... Thats it... There's the cause...
Still if you conspiracy theorists want to believe its anything more complicated than that, feel free. If it means so much to you, you can pay my green taxes for me. Thanks!