Luan Pra bang

The system should be free for motorbikes. If every single person went to work on a motorbike traffic problems would vanish overnight

unclebuck

Yeah, and then we will be truely third world. Like any far eastern country. I can see why you would approve.

You will be able to swan around in your dad's X5 and let him pay the road use tax

Luan Pra bang

My dad would never have an X5. He has a roller and a couple of seven series to get driven around in. X5's are for chavs hence why I don't have one anymore (if I drive a chav car then it might as well be a subaru) He did persuade me to buy an X5 but that was becuase he felt it invited shame on our family for me to drive a subaru.

HTH

unclebuck

Thanks - that helps loads....

Bubba po

How on earth are X5's for chavs?

unclebuck

They are. He's right about that.

So, Luan now you've done Beemers and (spit) Subarus, what car does your family allow you to actually own?

Nissan Micra by any chance?

Dream Weaver

I don't know a single person that could get to work without a car. Example, I used to work in Runcorn 8 years back. 150 miles round trip to work, 1 hour each way when traffic was good.

To get there without a car would've taken 3 hours each way, and cost twice as much as fuel. It wasn't an option.

None of my friends or family could get to work without a car either. Even my Mrs who only works 6 miles away - it takes almost 90 minutes to get a bus from here to her work as their are no direct routes. It takes 10 mins by car. And we live in a town, not out in the sticks.

A small percentage can get to work by public transport if they wish, but why have to put up with drunks and crackheads on buses, things i've seen on the odd occasion I use public transport. They have to spend a lot to get our transport network sorted and maybe then it will be a viable option.

scoobynutta555

When/if this system comes into play, If I'm on a coach to work, I expect you and your like to come and compensate me if I ever have to sit in congestion ever again.

Yet again, please tell me Ken's CC is successful in reducing congestion in London and lives up to the high expectations of free flowing traffic that were promised at the outset.

OllyK

I think you may misunderstand what "oil reserve" actually means. It doesn't mean when the oil runs out, it means how long we can carry on harvesting oil at the current rate without finding any more oil or developing new technologies to get at the oil we currently can't access. Currently the oil reserves are higher than they have ever been, 20 years has been the norm historically. While we will get to a point one day where the remaining oil is not economicaly viable to extract, it will be in more than 50 years time.

OllyK

Ken's CC has been highly effective at meeting it's objective, which is the same as the national one - raising revenues. If anybody thinks this is about reducing congestion they are mistaken. The congestion situation could be dramatically improved by removing many of the measures introduced to INCREASE congestion and thus reduce speed (another mantra).

GCollier

Can you explain what "you and your like" mean? Just interested.

Depending what you read (and believe), the Kengestion charge has done anything from reduce traffic in the zone by 30%...to simply damage businesses within the zone.

But you seem to be implying that I agree with the implementation of the charge. I don't.

It's flawed because:
a) It is localised to only a small area with hard boundaries, not integrated into the nation as a whole.
b) It is not a cost per mile scheme. Once you've paid your £8, you may as well make as many journeys as possible that day.
c) The cut off times are too arbitrary. It should cost more to travel at rush hour, less for the rest of the day.
d) Plans to increase the charge to £25 for "gas guzzlers" is just plain wrong and politically driven. If the "externality" being tackled by this charge is congestion, it makes no sense to charge thirsty vehicles more. The externality they cause (more emmissions) is most fairly met by duty on fuel.

Gary.

GrahamG

the system is a load of ucking bullshiite!

keep what we have now... live with it...

scoobynutta555

So in other words the CC is an example of a poorly thought out and implemented charge for congestion, made by a directly elected authority. No change there then.

You are your like, means you and likeminded persons, just as it says really. And I'll post up my paypal account at the time for you and your like to pay into it

speedking

But who would define "most valuable". Just because premiership footballers can afford to drive a ferrari from Manchester to London at £2.50/mile every week does not make their journey more valuble than a charity care worker who cannot afford 20p/mile to visit an elderly dependent I would happily say that football matches should only be allowed between teams less than 10 miles apart. Think of all the supporters that would take off the roads. Others might disagree though.

As stated above, build railways and bus routes, make them cheaper and quicker than cars (door to door) and people will naturally use them, market forces. You don't need to force people out of their cars, entice them into public transport.

Inefficient system. If you spent the money that is currently paid by road users on expanding, maintaining and improving the road system then it would be a larger finite resource. It is artificially constrained by proceeds being spent elsewhere by government. Globally the system is efficient, that's why we are where we are. Mobility of labour, centralised manufacturing and distribution, etc.

OllyK

I suspect that a lot of this stems from NL wanting to promote public transport. The problem is they have neither the cash or the inclination to develop a world class public transport system that would attract people to use it, so instead they try to cost people out of cars. Of course the current public transport system can't cope so they up the prices on that to stop people using it. Cash generation in the name of improvement whilst delivering nothing.

Luan Pra bang

the biggest problem with public transport is the rude drunken violent and smelly people that use it anywhere outside central London.

OllyK

I wasn't aware anybody did use it outside of Central London.

Luan Pra bang

yes thieves murderers and the old ladies they want to mug. Also immigrant workers who can't afford cars or taxis

GCollier

Just because the congestion charge is flawed does not alter the economic benefits of a properly implemented road pricing scheme.

If I travel at times and on roads that cause inconvenience to others, I'm more than happy to pay my dues via road pricing.


Value is a matter for an individual to decide upon for themselves. Therefore the only fair way of defining what is most valuable is by giving people the choice whether to pay for it. By definition if someone pays for goods or a service, then those goods or service are worth more to them than the money.

speedking

Road travel isn't free, people already have the choice whether to pay for it, road tax, fuel, insurance, depreciation, etc..

Let every individual then decide whether a £200 black box offers value for money and fit them if they want to By definition if someone won't pay for goods or a service, then those goods or service are worth less to them than the money.

We'll all have to pay for this £multibillion implementation and administration through higher taxes whether we think it offers vfm or not.

GCollier

But they're not given the choice of whether to pay for the negative effects their use of the car has on others. That's what road pricing is designed for.

That would be fine if the choices were (a) fit black box and pay for what you use or (b) assume you travel 50k miles pa at peak times on most congested roads...

scoobynutta555

You're not grasping a fundamental point here. The national scheme will be flawed, just like every other major Gov't IT scheme has been. In fact it will be a disaster like most of them, and will not stop congestion. The money (and it will be a colossal amount) spent on trying to implement the system should be spend on the infrastructure.

GCollier

I've already agreed that I'm somewhat cynical about whether the government can implement it properly.

But does that mean we're in agreement then that it's a good idea in theory?

scoobynutta555

In theory it would be a better idea to ban all gas using vehicles and have a free, efficient transport

Dream Weaver

It may be a good idea if they scrapped road tax, insurance and fuel duty, plus VAT on all car related stuff and just charged the single road pricing, but they won't do that

If they did I would be quids in as I only do 1500 miles a year in my car.

How would it work with shared cars though, as I drive the Mrs's Beemer at the weekends or would it be aimed at cars, not people?