MartynJ

Or the built in Ecutek road dyno...

Andy.F

I most certainly did not !

Why would I do that when Steve offered me free use and I didn't even take him up on that ? Will I go dig out that post ?

plumbscooby

hello all

ive read this thread with interest and would just like to add my own experience .

i have a 54 plate wrx sl from new originally 227 bhp . I took it to ajs remap and exhaust to 265bhp .

then sometime later using the standard turbo (td04) with supporting mods this was increased to 320 bhp .

again then to do some local drag racing and odd track days changed turbo to vf34 and took the car to 358/335 .

all of this was done at ajs in plymouth on a rolling road , with all of these changes one thing remained constant and that was that i as the customer wanted it to be drivable as an every day car . ie the wife can take it shopping and todle round town etc . At ALL of these stages thats exactly what it does .

Martin has also taken the time before doing these mods to tell me the downsides as well as the improvements that there would be on each of these power increases . Added to this although they have mapped the car on the rolling road , it has then been taken on the road tweaked and tested . At every stage it has driven extremely well and after 14000 miles since first modification no troubles whatsoever .As an added bonus with 358 bhp uses less petrol than standard .

The bhp figure IS NOT the most important thing , it is the way that it drives and on that basis ajs come highly recomended.

andy

StudentScooby

320 from standard td04!? are you sure?

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Agreed, I find it hard to believe that a Td04 (however it's mapped) can produce that bhp.

Ns04

Alan Jeffery

Being fair here, the actual TD04 figure was 309.4, but we did a lot of run ups and I can understand the slight error!
The graph is available for those who can be bothered to see it!
I'm worried about the threat of being kicked off here for inadvertent advertising, so please don't ask me for the web address!
I'm only responding to unbelievers..

R4LLY

iTrader: (1)

I had my car mapped by Andy last year and it came out on the dynos at 350bhp.....this was on a vf23 with a peak of 1.4 bar......this shows that mapping on road can give equally good dyno figures as well as excellent driveability on road.
Andy has proved consistently that he doesn't need a dyno to map a car to its maximum potential. Dyno's have their uses... but if Andy hasn't used them before to map any of his cars why try and argue a case against him stating that dyno tuning or a mix of both is more effective.

isnt a 9.1 1/4 mile proof enough of the benefits of on road mapping......

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Why do people come out with silly comments like this?

All that a 9.1 1/4mile proves in this instance is that Andy is an extremely gifted engineer, who knows how to prepare and setup a classic subaru to propell itself down a track 1/4 mile long, in a very short space of time. Thats it, it DOES NOT prove the merrits of mapping on the road.

Alan Jeffery

As Andy doesn't trust dynos, why should we believe your figures either?

I'm always hearing people who don't use dynos quoting power figures.
where do they come from?

Andys car is spectacularly well developed by a man who clearly has a great deal of knowledge of Impreza engines, as well as a great deal of time to spend on it. I sincerely hope he didn't set up his 200 mph car on the road!

R4LLY

iTrader: (1)

What does prove the merits of mapping on the dyno/road in your opinion then??...... Does mapping not effect the preparation of a drag car....

Are you assuming that if Andy set the same car up on a dyno he would achieve the same result?.....

You cannot say setting up the vehicle on road/dyno has no bearing whatsoever on its acceleration i.e. 1/4 mile time.

Assuming that mapping a vehicle a certain way would have no bearing on it's performance could be said to be a "silly" assumption.

Andy.F

I actually have very little time to spend on it Alan !

Yes it was set up 100% on the road.

R4LLY

iTrader: (1)

You don't have too. The fact is that tuners who use the RR rely solely on dyno figures to satisy their customers. I am not rubbishing dyno mapping, but just wanted to state that with a road map i achieved a satisfactory Dyno result as well as on the road..... Some people argue that when car's are mapped on road they achieve less power on the dyno.... this is not always the case...
There are many well renowned mappers who vary with their methods. However what it boils down to is that the tuner who has developed the fastest impreza recommends Road tuning.
"Joe bloggs" from the public only has this to go by......

rigga

iTrader: (4)

It might not need part throttle settings to be so accurate,or decent idle manners,or fuel consumption might not be as important as an every day used road car,but pretty sure Andys car needs to rev through to the redline several times down the strip,and do it without causing terminal internal damage,and in the most efficent way to produce the max power it can to do its intended job....... mapped for what its best intention is.

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Your missing the point completely

All Andy's time proves is that ANDY is a bloody good mapper, especially when its combined with his own foresight.

Nope i am not assuming anything, but your original post infers that if Andy were to map HIS car on a DYNO, then he would not achieve the results he has!

Correct! I have NOT said this, and of course ANY mapping whatsoever, WILL have an effect on a cars performance, good or bad.

I have made no assumptions at all, you appear to have though.

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Now thats a far better thought out post than your other one

Bob Rawle

I'm trying hard not to stay in on this but its no good ...

Harvey your Sti6 ... that got some good figures ... set up on the road iirc And those high speed runs at Brunters got the top end spot on I thought.

Its my view that no way can you set a car up for drag use on the rollers, impossible, there is so much that relates to the dynamics of the car. I don't aspire to the level of Andy or Pavlo but my car is no slouch for a fully loaded road vehicle and as long as it stays on the island should do a high 10 next year, getting that to its present level has been from pure road mapping. So often dyno mapped cars with big power and torque figures fall flat on the strip. Every meeting seems to be an R & D event for them.

Just read this through again from start to end ... Andy I make it 4.8 to one in favour of the road

A rolling road is like a computer, a good tool if used with the right knowlege, otherwise the garbage rule applies.

Thought this thread was going to be somewhat different to the way it is ... should have known the publicity opportunity was too good to keep it technical.

Bob

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

So guys, what we're really saying is that the mapper is the most important part of the equation; kinda what we said at the start.

As a consumer though, I would still like to know how a RR can replicate the airflow that occurs in the real world, and if this isn't as important as some of the road mappers make it out to be, why is that? Are such discrepancies the reason that AFRs set using one method can be found to be out using the other, for example?

I'm genuinely curious about this issue

Ns04

R4LLY

iTrader: (1)

At least we agree on something...


Thats right i don't believe he would have achieved the same results after mapping on a dyno....If he believed it would benefit him to put his car on a dyno, he would have taken up the offers of the free sessions....

R4LLY

iTrader: (1)

Wise words from another man renowned for his knowledge on tuning

Alan Jeffery

"Tuners who use the rolling road rely solely on figures to satisfy thier customers"

words fail me...

I'll try a few of these before I go to bed. See if you can figure out which one suits the above statement best.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Alan, I don't agree with the sentiment expressed by the poster you refer to, but as an expert on RR mapping (and seemingly a good egg), could you shed some light on the issue I raised above? I'm sure I'm not the only consumer who has wondered about this.

Ns04

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Bob your right re just setting a car up for drag use on rollers alone, my car in its current spec, as you know, has spent 95% of its mapping time on Scoobyclinics rollers, the rest has been quick checks on the road the night before events due to constantly breaking gearboxes.

The reason(s) my car was done this way, was because i had changed so many things, i wanted to check things closely, whilst the car was running. We found several problems, minor problems, things like the neck of the header tank being buckled causing the header cap not to seal, thus allowing water to blow out. Its little things like this that Dynos provide benefit for.

I also didnt want to be stuck in the middle of nowhere should a problem arise, especially late at night when i prefer to do the road mapping, due to volume of traffic.

My car now needs time spent off the dyno to refine it further, plus me learning to drive it. Theres no way on earth you would get me trying to achieve 200mph sat on a Dyno , that would be a tad foolish IMO

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

In that case, we shall agree to disagree

R4LLY

iTrader: (1)

Alan im not trying to offend you here or anything. I understand you also map on the road as well as on the RR.... what i meant was if a car is mapped solely on a dyno what else but RR figures are there to go by when mapping a vehicle......

R4LLY

iTrader: (1)

steve rally

A few points which seem to have been lost in the ebb and flow of this thread:

1.The road only team still have not quantified how they optimise load/rpm sites on the map on AVCS and non det limited fuels without the benefit of a torque read out.If we accept that the acceleration of the car is a function of the area under the torque curve than this must be relevant.

2.The free use of roller offer for the "special one" was made to put to bed most of the points above....the fact is was not accepted is logical given the stance being taken.Subsequent requests to hire the rollers were made.No way Stuart at TEG would forget the chance to make £200!!!

3.I clearly remember the discussion down at Alans where we agreed that "to get that last 10-15 BHP you need the rollers" which was qualified with "but it's an expensive bit of kit.."

4.3 cars in this week that had been road only mapped with customers given (over)estimates of power.Re-maps yielded at worst 8% improvement and at best 13%.Why should the customer pay twice because someone refuses to accept the bleeding obvious?And before someone jumps in and accuses me of just drumming up business, these customers approached me because they felt they wanted confirmation of the "road" figures.If I can't improve the map and increase power significantly they only pay £45 for a power run.This has happened rarely; recently on a GT4 with unknown mapper and on a Subaru mapped by Andy(just to show I am trying to be fair...) but the depressing norm is as I have illustrated above which does include cars mapped by thread contributors also.(Including self!)

Steve


Steve

Alan Jeffery

With reference to airflow I have to point out that despite holding a pilot's licence, I've rarely travelled at 200 mph! Let's get real here. How many of my customers go serious drag racing? er.. none. How many drive at over 140 mph?.. none that I know of. We primarily set up road cars. I can understand Andy's concerns about air flow at the sort of speeds he's talking about, but that rarified atmosphere is alien to the rest of us mere mortals.
Subaru designed thier systems to operate well within normal speed ranges, which is why I'm reluctant to mess with intake systems too much, and inclined to carefully test every installation.
I am entirely confident about the work that we do, as we check it all AT BOTH ENDS. I have extensive experience on virtually every race track in the land. My choice would be to track test every car we tune. Would YOU pay me to do that? If so, come on down sunshine, and we'll go play.

Andy.F

Non det limited fuels ? I don't map restricted rally cars, just road and track cars, 99% of which run std fuels.
My own race car being an exception of course, I must just be lucky and stumbled upon a good setting that runs a reliable 210mph
If you want a torque reading, look at instantaneous acceleration rate, simple really. If you read the linked thread below you will see that I also answered this question for you around a year ago.

You are not going to suggest the free offer didn't exist then
In addition to your offer, I have also had the offer of free use of a number of rolling roads much closer to home such as Dastek (12miles) Star (15 miles) Wallace (100 miles) JP (100 miles) and even have a free voucher I won for Scoobyclinic which is 6 months old and unused yet.

So why on earth would I want to travel all the way to TEG ..AND...pay them ?

At a recent mapping weekend in Manchester, the guys offered to hire Prosports rollers for me to use (at no cost to me) I declined the free offer.
I have spoken to Stuart once in the past 2 years and that was ref gearbox parts, you are either severely confused or being misled Steve Are you suggesting I made "Subsequent requests to hire the rollers" and was refused use ? or didn't attend ? because I sure as hell have never even been on TEGs premises !


Correct, to achieve roller numbers you need to tune on the rollers. I'm not out looking for roller numbers.
Of course you will improve the numbers ie how the car runs under the false conditions created. Then re adjust it before putting it back to its real life environment. Afterwards, on the road it may well be running lean/rich/under or over advanced, under boosting or overboosting.

Here was how easily Mike Wood from Prodrive found 15bhp on a DD rolling road

Just have a read of one of your own rolling road days feedback. from post no 200 here is interesting.
Strange how many cars had 'problems'
https://www.scoobynet.com/northern-2...january-7.html

I had to re assure a number of participants that there was not a problem with their cars and they didn't in fact "require an urgent remap" Most of these cars I had not mapped btw !

Andy

lunar tick

iTrader: (2)

Andy - is there a facility for checking instantaneous acceleration in real time when mapping using EcuTek 3? Just thinking it would be a very handy feature to have if the data could somehow be displayed

Andy.F

Yes there is.DeltaDash On-Road Dyno Testing