MartynJ

While I agree that rolling road figures can vary from one to another I have had customers cars run six months and 10,000 miles apart show a difference of less than 3%...

Not true..I have as I said earlier dynoed cars from road mappers on here and found that they can produce less power and torque than cars of a similar spec rolling road mapped by myself....
As someone who competes at a local level I will have to disagree with that..

True but not all of us fiddle figures...When someone comes to us they get a true reading and an unbiased opinion..If they ask for advice then we will offer it based on the evidence seen...

If you have 2 cars of the same spec , weight , gearing etc and lets for instance say that the rolling road tuned one has 10hp and 10lbft of torque through the whole rev range which one do you seriously think is going to be faster...
If the road tuned car has more of both then obviously the result would be reversed..
Its not just about how much you have but where you have it (As discussed in the TD04 thread a few days ago)..

Andy.F

You have completely missed the point Martyn.

The dyno figures are not necessarily representative of the power the car actually makes on the road.
I have explained why in my previous posts.

If dyno tuning made a quicker Impreza dont you think one may have actually excelled in such events as

International top speed records
1/4 mile racing, std internals and modified classes at ALL the countrys tracks
Hillclimb championships, Scotland and England
Sprint championships

Andy

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

That is my point Martyn - someone tuning for a peak figure on the RR is not getting all the picture - it is the area under the graph that counts. Obviously you are not doing this but some will become obsessed by peak figures.

powerwrx

iTrader: (11)

so is it road or rollers then

Bob Rawle

Martyn your comments are very typical of some rolling road owners and operators and reflect what is appearing across several different forums.

Advice under some circumstances is relative, I know of one owner who was told his car was producing 77 bhp and 70 odd ft lbs less than it previously recorded on three different rolling roads and repeated again on one of them after being dynoed at this establishment. This car had been mapped on the road btw not on the rollers. The proprieter advised that the only cure was to remap it (lol).

As for fiddling, nothing beats an owner driving the car during its mapping session, nothing can be hidden then can it.

Spending £70,000 on a rolling road doesn't make anyone "good", smacks of mines better than yours somewhat.

Not that I am implying anything specific here, of course.

As Andy says.

cheers

Bob

Andy.F

Road if you want to go fast and possibly even win things
Rollers if you want a bragging bulletin

DARKDESTROYER9

what about mapping the base figures on the rollers like setting boost and steady runs across the rev range and then doing things like acceleration and boost issues on the road i dont know anything about mapping a car this just seems the logical solution, how do you map a car at 6500 - 7000 rpm in 5th gear on the road ? is it just down to the mappers experience on how much fuel to air to use at this point? this thread is making really good reading as the best people in the country are contributing sensably without slagging each other off which is really nice to see. i haave great intrest in this as im looking to have a stand alone ecu fitted and mapped soon money permiting and i dont know weather to have a road map or rolling road map do any of you offer a comined service of both rolling road and road mapping? as i would not want to drive on the public road at 140mph plus to set top end fueling

MartynJ

True but didn't one win the Time Attack series...

I can't comment nationwide Andy as I haven't seen any one from as far afield as yourself , and drag racing isn't our scene..Locally there were only two Impreza's in the hillclimb and sprint championship (Neither of them in a particularly high state of tune ie less than 350hp) and you originally mapped both of them on OUR rollers...lol
In our local championship this year early on we had to contend with Barry Squibbs 500hp EVO6 , a Norris tuned 480hp Pulsar GtiR and Roy Brays Escort Cossie to name but a few...I have no doubt that a decent 400/400 2.5 would do very well in the championship but after investing well over £100,000 in our move and purchasing our dyno it looks like i'm stuck with my Starlet for a while longer...

Andy.F

How would a rolling road set 140mph fueling ? No way it can simulate that sort of airflow.

If you are not planning on doing 140mph on the road then why do you want it mapped for it ?
If you are doing top speed track stuff then map on the track, its the only way to do it properly.

Andy

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Was the PS impreza mapped on the Rollers solely?

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Hi Martyn,

First of all, no disrespect intended to you nor anyone else who advocates the use of a RR for tuning purposes; as I stated there is good evidence in the form of customer testominals that they can be used to very good effect!

I think any differences we have can be largely resolved (or at least qualified) by reiterating a point made by several people at the outset of the thread i.e. the mapper is the most important component in the equation!

To respond to your points

I'm sure they have, I wasn't saying that obtaining a reliable result is not possible with a Dyno; just pointing out that some people have identified inconsistencies and experienced trouble reproducing a good result on a particular dyno


Again, I wasn't saying that all road maps will be superior to RR maps; the mapper is the key here. If you (not to mention Andy and Bob) will forgive me for "playing to reputations", I would respectfully suggest that you wouldn't see one of their cars come in and be able to tune it to make a demonstrable performance advantage on the road. To further illustrate the importance of the mapper first and foremost, I can recall at least two examples from here of cars mapped on a RR (by a reputable firm) then taken to another firm put on the rollers only to discover audible (which I'm assuming means bad) det! [/quote]

That's fair enough mate; each to their own. I'm not interested in how my car performs on anything other than the road; others are and in some circles there is a lot of Kudos attached to that, not to mention great advertising for people who modify Subarus.

I'm not suggesting for a minute they are. Simply put, you can use a RR to tell a porky; there's no-where to hide when the rubber hits the tarmac! The truth will out

Indeed, but in that context we were discussing the relative merits of using different mods i.e. different turbos on the power band etc... In this context, the appropriate question would be, given the same mods, (and a hypothetical same mapper ) would better results be obtained on a RR or the road?

Like I said, if anyone can explain to me how a RR can accurately reproduce the critical variable of airflow over the car (which seems to be their primary disadvantage) then my decision may have been different!

But then again, I wouldn't have been able to use Bob or Andy (who both map on the road) so we're back to the whole thing about the mapper being the most important part of the equation again i.e. where we started!

If nothing else, I'm good at going around in circles!

Lke I said, sincerely no disprespect to you Martyn, I'm in no way trying to detract from your work, just explaining the thinking behing my decision from a consumer perspective.

Ns04

Andy.F

Martyn

I think you will find that the one in the time attack series doesn't run a maf (big difference) and that result may just have had more to do with the driver than the car in that particular case

MartynJ

I completely agree Andy and should we all have a Bruntingthorpe or Elvington on our doorstep I would be there every day..As we don't I shall continue to do things my way and you shall of course continue to do them yours...

I think I will now bring my input on this debate to a close as I don't wish to fall out with either yourself or Bob...Your reputations are of course well known and I can only hope to achieve the respect you have both gained in your superior years....

lunar tick

iTrader: (2)

Fascinating discussion and great to read the view of such experienced mappers, no matter which side of the fence they sit.

I have to say however that having read this (and other posts), I'm still unconvinced totally by either side of the argument.

On the one hand, it makes perfect sense that the RR can't simulate the air flow characteristics experienced by an engine at differing speeds; also the exact loading presented by road conditions.

On the other hand, provided the air intake temperature is kept constant and equivalent to that on the open road, surely the air flow characteristics created by a good fan will not have such a massive impact as to render the RR map useless? For example, suppose you have an wing mounted air intake - it's hard to see the how air movements past the bulk of the car will have a massive impact on the relatively shielded environment of the air intake??

The other thing that makes me slightly uncomfortable (as a scientist) is the fact that road mappers are saying they know their results are the best that can be achieved, but aren't ameanable to measurement (because the RR can't replicate precise airflow).

In my mind, measurement is what separates science from religion/fantasy/fiction (take your pick). To say that the method you use is the best, but the nature of the method you use means that the results can't be measured is rather akin to saying that God exists because despite there being no physical evidence for his existence, the nature of his being means that you couldn't find evidence anyway! Of course, the road mappers may be right (and God may exist!)!!

How about a challenge? Get a road mapper to map a car for maximum performance then time it through the gears from 30-130mph on the open road. Then, wipe the map clean and hand the same car to a RR mapper to see if he can remap on the rollers and can gain any advantage by RR mapping. If so, we could expect to see a time advantage on the open road. Obviously, test would have to be conducted on the same day in similar temperature/weather conditions. Any takers??

harvey

iTrader: (48)

A combination of road and rolling road tuning suits my current needs on two vehicles. The results from a combination are superior to one method or the other only.
On some cars, a minority in my experience, on some rollers, the AFRs at full power are different to the actual AFRs on the open road. This is easily detected by road testing after the rolling road session with a wide band AFR. I think the reason for this is the effect of the rolling road fan delivery system on the inlet tract. Quite simply, if you are using a combination of road and roller mapping it will be evident but it only affects a limited number of vehicles that I have witnessed.

Clearly the choice of rolling road, rolling road operator and tuner is just as vital as the choice of road mapper. There are good rolling road facilities as well as poor ones so just because one particular facility is unsatisfactory does not mean that all rolling road facilities are unacceptable.

As I have pointed out, a combination of road and roller mapping will not suit all vehicles but it is certainly very useful for many, especially those with very high top speeds.
You have me somewhat confused. You are vehemently against rolling road tuning but only three weeks ago you were asking about daily hire rates on the TEG Sport rolling road.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

But are they saying that mate?

Surely the quality of the maps would be quantifiable on the road by the car's performance, which can be accurately logged via GPS and sophisticated monitoring of the relevant engine and ECU variables via the mapping software, gauges etc...

It seems to me that what they are saying is that a RR is not the most appropriate type of measurement for a car mapped for the road, because

a) It's not a like-for-like comparison, as the maps have to reflect the method used i.e. Rolling road or road precisely because of differences in critical variables such as airflow, loading etc....

b) RR figures are of questionable relevance to the real world compared to data pertaining to the car's performance on roads i.e. where the vast majority of these cars spend the vast majority of their time.

Surely, the majority of us who have our car mapped are interested in how the figures translate to the car's performance on the road? I still can't see how the argument that a RR has more validity than road derived measures for anyone other than those who RR their cars regularly is tennable?

Ns04

Andy.F

I did when ? it must have just been in general conversation or when you were discussing fitting the ***** ECU with me ? Mapping a new type of ECU from scratch would benefit from initial set up on a RR but thats not what I do.

We will just need to agree to disagree on the top speed issue. Prior to my numerous 200+ top speed runs, my car was nowhere near a rolling road, in fact the one and only time it was on a rolling road it was purely for a power run, no tuning was carried out. That was around 2 years ago now.

Andy

lunar tick

iTrader: (2)

You're right of course - in gear acceleration times under wide open throttle would be one way of making meaningful comparative measurements between a RR and road mapped car (hence my suggestion of a 30-130mph challenge). But how can you accurately measure part-throttle performance on the road? In real world driving conditions, not all the time is spent with the right foot mashed to the floor.

swifty.....!

iTrader: (4)

i'm no mapper but had experiance with a friends car being mapped by powerstation on rr and me and my friend have always wanted to see what difference this makes in the real world so before he took his car to be remapped we would take are cars to a non public road to do speed runs to see how cars differred so we would both drive at same speed same gear do horn signal to put foot down. so before he went he was in every gear unable to keep within a car lengh of me after remap we did same and on this he was a half a car lengh in front of me at all times but after a week or so he was having trouble with car so took it back to powerstation no extra parts fitted but on this occasion they mapped the car on the road took an hour. anyway on returning home did same as above as he thought the car was faster. so did runs and this time i couldn't keep up with him just pulled away in every gear.

so in my opinion road mapping has to be done at some point i.e finishing car off if not all of time. so for me i will only have my car road mapped as in my experiance this is the faster car in the real world which is what most of us want not just high figures.

also with time attack point earlier wont powerstation tweak the map at the track for conditions etc? as this is what most racing teams do

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

Lunar: Good theory of a test...but...a mapper will probably only want to back-up their own preferred method, and hence the results will not be true.

If you use a RR mapper vs a road mapper you will have wide differences in the individuals ability to map.

We all know that AndyF maps the fastest cars bhp for bhp

lunar tick

iTrader: (2)

Good point Bob - guess there are just too many variables to consider for a 100% true A-B comparison. At the end of the day, if the car is reliable on the road and goes like stink, that's what counts

moneys

iTrader: (5)

This is the bes thread i have ever read on here . thanks guy,s you have me captivated

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

It isn't???? How do you drive then

Yes, the problem is that it would be exceptionally difficult for the driver to modulate the loud pedal accurately. I believe that the mapping software monitors throttle position, so -thinking out loud here- if the new age scoobies have drive-by-wire accellerators (?) is it technical feasible for the modulation to be controled by the software, thus acheiving the degree of control and consistency required for the types of tests you mention.

A more fundamental problem, however, is that there is a critical aspect of the quality of a map that none of these tests can assess: Impact on the cars reliability/longevity. Presumably any map involves a compromise between performance and safety,and one could orientate it towards the former knowing that it would only have to operate under these conditions for a short time. You'd need some kind of "double blind" design to avoid this.

Ns04

Alan Jeffery

I'll start by declaring that I've been using rolling roads for thirty years.

I had to have a very good reason to part with £70,000 for my Dyno Dynamics machine. One reason only. It's the best available by a country mile!

We just finished a 2.5 conversion on a chap's GC8 Scooby. I ran up a total of 1000miles in it, while we ran it in and set it up. We used the dyno and we used our common sense to test it properly in everyday driving and carry out tweaks. the "tweaks" were primarily on the driveability front, and to take care of issues with things like dump valves and idle speed control. The result is stunning with effortless smooth performance and superb pick up from very low rpm. The guy phoned us from Wales this morning, and is overjoyed with it.
It's a road car after all, and in my humble opinion, far too many tuners don't pay enough attention to that one.

Would we just set it up on the dyno and leave it at that?
Would we just set it up on the road?
It's a no to the above, on the basis that we wouldn't own a dyno and not use it, and we wouldn't try and set a car up without testing all the options to the best of our ability.

We currently have five Imprezas in for major re-working, and we'll use road testing and rolling road testing for all of them.

I'd like to know what the definition of "real road conditions" means! I can't imagine a greater variable. I'm sure people think they can go on the road, and there is this magic place where temperatures pressures and humidity are a constant. What do you have in reality? Kids, cats, old ladies in automatics
( the most dangerous thing alive ), horses and cows in Devon, manic depressive sheep in Wales, and Haggis Monsters from you know where. Road works, buses, bicycles, manholes, white van men, police man traps etc. Muddy puddles, sh-te from the horses, oily slicks and milky spillages. We get mornings in Devon where the top of the hill to the bottom can mean a difference of 50% in temperature and humidity.
And you think it's ok to try and tune a car in busy traffic? I prefer my cosy cell thanks when it comes to high rpm's.

The idea of 140 mph on public roads scares me to death, yet I keep hearing horror stories of those who do just that when setting cars up. I'd like to see that excuse aired in Court! Track use is fine, and I know my way around all the circuits if anyone fancies a decent testing session, but I'm not prepared to risk life and licence when it isn't necessary.

We love Andy F and Bob Rawle by the way, and won't hear a word said against them. They are both brilliant at what they do. We don't build top drag cars, and have no issues with the very clever way they do that.

We build fast road cars, that have proper mot's and stuff, go to Tesco, but blow the doors off boy racers. We are very busy!

Martyn J and I, ( he's my first born Son ) will just go on doing what we do, and hopefully our customers will go on liking it.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

hills.... mmmm dont get many of them around here ... no seriously you dont

Great first post Alan but I am sure Andy F and Bob dont just do drag cars

Alan Jeffery

I know that! who do you think first taught us to use Apexi?

Him Yoda, we Jedi Knights..

Andy.F

Far from it, 99% of my customer cars are daily drivers.(on roads, not rollers )
Getting the power is the easy bit, making it all gel together into a smooth seamless experience that will last is the real task.

Alan, knowing the area you operate from then I agree that road mapping is not practical for you guys. It's a bit different up here though I've certainly NEVER had any "horror story" mapping sessions.

I would be interested in your findings regarding AFR differences from the dyno to motorway speeds on the road.

Andy

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Andy - do you find that they run leaner on the road?

Alan Jeffery

Hi Andy - We most certainly DO map on the road!
We just make use of an undeniable asset, like having the best dyno in the world on tap, and we don't have to run the gauntlet regardless.
My feeling is most after market air filter systems are ill-conceived, and we are very well aware of difficulties in that area. More than once we've set a car up just fine, then chappie comes in with another filter on the car, and it's all gone t-ts up. Another variable! yippee... I wish I could weld bonnets shut sometimes..

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

you talking about the hot air induction kits that people fit? - strange that they think it will help