£800 + vat = £940 for a piece of very capable kit that will support features only much more expensive ECUs can support.
It was inevitable that in time something would come along to surpass the Apexi. The Sigma is that ECU.

 

harvey are u on comission for selling the sigma ???

 

I find your suggestion offensive.
I want to make my Group Buy a success and bring to the Scooby community a really worthwhile piece of kit to benefit those Scooby owners that are interested. In the same way I, with Mark A's assistance, brought the Hybrid FMIC, when FMICs were a grand a piece minimum. Ported headers. Helping to reduce fuel pump prices from £135 to a more acceptable £85/90. The brake bias mod etc.
Don't judge me by your standards.

 

wish I had close to 1k spare as it does really sound like a very capable piece of equipment. Does it actually have knock correction as well as warning?

 

Harvey,

There's no reason to be offended that someone might think that you are earning a "comission, or profit", out of what you do.

Bringing products to the market, and making a profit are not mutually exclusive, and since both your Hybrid, & ported header sales are profit making, I don't understand why you would take offence, regardless if you are profiting in some way, or just doing Steve Simpson a favour this time.

We all have to make a living, and pay bills.


Mark.

 

so you must be running more boost than you were on the Apexi which I assume had no misfire? hence the higher power figure over the Apexi?
or different AFR to induce the misfire?

It will obviously be easier to pick up the timing signal on the 97~98 as it has ht leads.... did you use the battery terminal connections to detect the timing signal?
This is not consistent with what I have seen.. I suggest that you were using the same or similar duty on the AVC-R on the rollers and the boost was fluctuating just below the target and therefore was going up and down due to the fluctuation in airflow / load.
Timing on it's own fluctuating by upto 4degrees with no other change to boost or airflow etc will cause det.. therefore I very much doubt it was a problem with Apexi ecus full stop, but the particular set up you are / were running and how it reacted to the load applied to it on the rollers. Not meaning to have a go at you by that only that the car was mapped on the road and then strapped to the rollers and I presume not tweaked?

You have stated a number of things as Better yet are equal or no better.. imho.. which we all have an opinion that is.. I just see you are stating your opinion and then saying they are factual.

You can move the brake points on the Apexi also.. I am sure you appreciate the resolution difference of the Links 6x6 and the Apexi's 20x20 or the Sigma's 24x24 but the extra 4 over 20 is not really going to alter anything noticable, imho.

No that was my mistake in my wording.. I was going to say from MBT but seeing as on pump gas it is rare to get near MBT I changed it to DET.. but this changed the point of my sentence unintentionally.. I was trying to focus on the 4~5bhp difference if you did actually map it 0.75degrees better off due to the resultion. I think though having mapped several different ecu's the same engine that you cannot compare ignition curves between ECU's as the timing within the processor, circuits etc etc.. are all different along with the other variables the manufacture may have choosen to use to conclude their strategy for spark / injector opening for example.

It is measuring air flow rather than boost.. the resolution is still producing the same outcome it is just a different route to get there.
If you (any you, not directed solely at you Harvey) are that against the MAF then Andrews MAFSIM is the way to go if you have an Apexi etc.. I have gone that route myself due to the large turbo and turbluence effecting the MAF etc.
Which btw can have a switched output for waterspray, and is very good price.

filter or intercooler.. could be another discussion.. regardless a thermo couple of a couple of pounds is not going to break the bank, and can be added to the intercooler if you really want.
The adjustment is per degree and/or % of injector duty / ms from memory.. I cannot without looking remember the number of increaments.. it has been a long couple of days.

tailing off boost is another discussion.. there is also a cheaper alternative to the AVC-R about to be available which is likely to be less than £100 and do all the AVC-R does and a bit more (control the waterspray for example).

Why has that been discounted? so the Apexi was tweaked on the rollers to make the comparison equal?
I wonder if you matched the actual boost.. was the duty on the AVC-R altered to gain the same boost it was mapped to on the road.. the fluctuating timing I think indicates no.. also the AVC-R doesn;t measure in BAR the SIGMA does.. you may of course have used a separate gauge and I might be wrong? or was the AVC-R boost number matched in the SIGMA? You mention optimising it for compressor map etc.. you can as you say do that with the AVC-R or with the SIGMA but if you didn't match the same boost curve on both this would explain the power difference.. like I keep asking (not pushing the point, feel I am repeating myself because I should have written this as a contiual reply rather than commenting on parts of your post) was the Apexi / AVC-R tweaked?
I think the only true way to compare would have been for the mapper to have been independent of either ecu and mapped each ecu on the rollers to gain the best power for each ecu rather than one mapped in different situation and not tweaked on the rollers to match circumstances? I am sure it wasn't set out to be an experiment of which ecu is best, else you would have done just that?

Do you have the graphs for the two ecus, as so far we are focusing on the peak power / torque, I would be more interested to see the curve.
MAFSIM is not expensive?
Anti-lag yet another discussion - you have jacked the throttle open or changed the idle valve then etc or are you just popping and banging like you can on any ecu?
Also consider you buy a Scoob.. want a bit more so decat, air filter, intercooler.. and then buy an ecu.. at a good price.. you then change turbo, and then turbo again even bigger and need to change the MAF / intake due to flow (hence your MAF in a tube) you just buy the MAFSIM then instead.

I feel you have shut off and I appreciate people should be confident in their own opinion and view point and feel they have all the facts etc.. but your first sentence to me sounds like a closed mind.. in no way are you willing to accept anything suggested in a civil conversation put to you.. you have made up your own mind already.. ie. there is not much point my wasting my precisous time replying because you are reading it looking for floors rather than considering what I or anyone suggests.

Like I said before I was waiting to hear back from Andy Leech to further discuss a trade agreement but he has stopped replying now, probably read this and assumed I am downing the SIGMA which is not the case I am just feeling your downing the Apexi. They are both capable ecu's just take a slightly different route.. SIGMA being original intended for Rally use and Apexi for road use.

I am running on 3hours sleep and travelled 500miles by motorcycle yesterday and worked a 22hour day so I appologise if some of my post is not using correct english or slurrs.. lol

Simon

 

Harvey,

I just noticed this comment.


I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sence. You won't achieve any power increase due to any duty cycle change, unless it is also altering boost.

The duty cycle required to hold the mapped boost target may change with RPM, but it will have ZERO effect on turbo efficiency, if the boost, & RPM remain the same.

Generally speaking, turbo efficiency reduces as boost, & RPM rise through the top end, and this requires "increased" duty cycle to maintain the target boost.


Mark.

 

which can be achieved with a non-overly complicated single duty..

Simon

 

Can I just clarify. The Apexi doesn't have a single duty setpoint. It has a single boost setpoint which it achieves by changing the wastegate duty as required.

And just perhaps to add confusion, the Apexi has 4 single boost setpoints ie via the included handset (which doubles as a diagnostic tool and a boost/knock/temperature gauge set) the driver can chose from any one of 4 boost settings.

 

sorry I was over simplifying.

 

Simpleton

 

no just not over complicated

 

I am surprised that you of all people would choose to pass comment on my standards. A Group Buy is exactly that. It is organised to give fellow members an opportunity to purchase something at the most advantageous terms possible. You think it is OK to cream a bit off the top. Apart from anything else it would mean I had not negotiated the best possible terms.
I made no money from the Hybrid FMIC GBs or any other GB although now I keep a small stock of FMICs so that anyone needing one outwith a GB situation can be satisfied immediately. I do headers but not as any GB situation.
My primary motivation with this GB is to give fellow Scooby owners the opportunity to purchase an ECU (that will take over as market leader IMHO)
at a very advantageous price. Not really anything to do with favours to Steve Simpson who is probably still smarting after the price negotiations.
Making money personally out of a Group Buy is despicable but clearly you see nothing wrong with it. Hardy surprising. You are the guy that sold defective PAR Gear Sets and when you found out they were defective you tried to bury the information and kept on selling them.

Yes but with integrity.

Simon : You have a tremendous imagination. The plugs were probably old and set at far too high a gap and I just ran out of time. Next Rolling Road session week commencing 23 October and we will see what a SIGMA and TD05-06 20G is capable of.

 

Simon : Before I spend time dealing with all this crap, time I don't really have, there is something for you to consider. I did not set out to knock the Apexi and you have inflamed the situation yourself. If people want to fit Apexi that is up to them, but here we have an ECU that is likely to take over from the Apexi as market leader. Rather than go to the far end of a 4art on here why don't we deal with this practically ?
You get a 93-98 car fitted with an Apexi that you are happy with and we will put it on the rollers and see what power it produces. You can tinker with the map on the rollers if you wish but we end up with an agreed figure from the Apexi. Steve will then fit a SIGMA and demonstrate the power difference to you. I don't think it could be fairer than that. If you are a betting man you and I can have a side bet too.
Now if there is anything unfair about this suggestion, let me know what it is.
You sort out the car and I guess this could be done some time towards the end of week 23 October or certainly during week of 30th October.
This way we put an end to all this crap.

 

You can suggest what you like, you were not there yet you are prepared to call into question my observations and professionalism.
I don't know how you install an ECU but don't you put in a "flat" ignition map, say 20 degrees across the off boost load sites then rev the engine to say 5000 rpm and check the actual timing light is following the actual laptop display values ? I would have thought this was basic. Another reason we were interested in this was we were unable to get as much ignition in to the Apexi as we had achieved with the Link (the previously fitted ECU) and we have now determined that is why the Apexi could not make the same power as the Link.(In part)
With the Apexi with all other timing compensations set to zero, we cleary witnessed the jitter which may have been 2-4 degrees.
The Link made 392 bhp but we only had 372 bhp from the Apexi although we picked up a small amount of this deficit. We were hitting DET with the Apexi due to the ignition drift.
All this happened when I was changing from the Link to the Apexi long before I even considered fitting a SIGMA.
All this is nothing to do with HT leads, batteries or anything else. What a ridiculous suggestion.
As for suggesting the ECUs have different ignition curves and strategies to compute timing, you have lost me. It is simple. If the laptop says 20 degrees then the ECU should be capable of controlling the spark through that rev range to that value. End of.

 

Look Pal, I am not answerable to you. I don't have to justify the SIGMA ECU to you. It is you who is creating the SIGMA / Apexi problem. You are talking through a hole in your bum. Don't criticise what I have done when you are not in receipt of the facts. Who do you think you are ?
I am not trying to down the Apexi. I was asked to give a comparison which I did honestly to the best of my ability. You now choose to make assumptions about things you clearly know nothing about and quite simply inflame the situation.

I don't think Andrew Leech has time to play about on Scoobynet and he is certainly too mature to be part of this playground. I would be surprised if he has had your enquiry for very long and I expect he will answer you next week. I think he generally works Monday to Friday.
If it was up to me, looking at your performance on here, I would take the view that you would not meet the criterian necessary to fit and map these ECUs.
I think you are a hipocrite.

Now you are really talking out your ***. There is no way the SIGMA was intended for Rally use, for lots of reasons. It was designed from a blank sheet of paper as a road car ECU with aircon etc. although now it is real in the flesh it has the features that would allow it to be used as a rally ECU.

Just so you are in no doubt, I think the Apexi has served Scooby owners very well and it will still be a good choice for a number of Scooby owners depending on existing modifications and potential future modifications but as far as I am concerned the Apexi has now been eclipsed by a far more capable piece of equipment which costs a little bit more. You clearly don't like that but in the cold light of day the Apexi is a good piece of kit but is probably being overtaken by something more capable.

 

Mark : That is exactly what I am saying and I am surprised that you do not understand this. If you reduce the duty cycle so the turbo isn't trying to achieve inefficient boost levels by reducing the boost we achieve more power, less charge temperature and maintain the ignition advance.

 

I did say at the start of this, that I was concerned you would end up getting annoyed and us falling out over it. . looks like I was right.

I also see you have to lower yourself to name calling and attack my ability, rather than discuss the subject.

I was trying to discuss your findings and add an opinion.. I was not attacking you whcih it how you have taken it.. sorry to have annoyed / offended you which was not my intension.. I will ignore the insults and attack on my ability as you have misunderstood my intensions.

I see no reason to take time out of my busy schedule to take my car across the country to have someone else map it on the rollers for some competition to see who can get the best peak power.. as I said the curve on the graph is far more interesting / important. Regardless of which makes more power, this was not everything that I felt imho was not fair about your comparison.

I never asked you to justify the SIGMA ecu to me, I just didn't agree with some of your comments regarding the Apexi ecu and wanted to discuss it.

Like I also said.. I have not seen ignition changes on an Apexi ecu of any degrees when the map is flat.. other than on idle when it rolls the timing about to keep the idle steady.. on cruise, boost or otherwise.. on my own car and around 150 other Apexi equiped Subaru's.

Oh he has been here alright.

Simon

 

What name calling?

You are talking out of your ***. That is a statement of fact. You have clearly demonstrated, on this thred, large voids in your knowledge.
You have made a lot of assumptions. You have been arrogant enough to come to conclusions, based on your assumptions which are generally wide of the mark.

You have a busy schedule but have found it necessary to set yourself up as an authority to pass comment on the Sigma ECU when you are without the facts or direct knowledge of it or information on the detailed experimental work done.

I have already asked you and you have not answered, don't you, as a matter of course, when you go to map a customer's car, put a timing light on and observe the timing mark?

Steve Simpson has been in Australia for the last two or three weeks and will be back next week but this is what I have received verbatim to my enquiry regards the background to the Sigma:
"We set out to develop a cost effective ROAD ECU 2 yrs ago and we have achieved that.We would not have bothered with air con compensation, closed loop lambda, CEL Knock light or 2 boost maps for Rally application. We had fitted about 20 of these units when we were approached by some existing rally customers and ALS was then added as a cost option. We have since fitted 3 of these ECUs to rally cars.
The ALS is therefore a fully functioning positive boost on overrun item.With no jacked open throttle it reduces the vacuum by approx 0.3 bar;it is not just pops and bangs....please lets not have THAT discussion again.I know that is all you can do on the Apexi, because you don't have the necessary maps and tables,but you should try the SIGMA before you suggest its capabilities.[/quote]

So who do we believe? Certainly not you.

 

I would like to correct an erroneous impression given on this thread.

We have not, are not and will not be in any commercial negotiations with Simon Roe / Jolly Green Monster, as I believe has been insinuated on this thread.

Andrew Leech

 

Try putting a timing light on the engine and adding a 1 degree offset.

Also how much of the timing changes do you attibute to the length of the timing belt?

 

I think you only need look at my posts both here and elsewhere on this and many other boards to see that this is not the case.
Please don't feel you can just throw stuff at me and with your over confidence think people will ignore the subject and focus on your abuse.




So who do we believe? Certainly not you.[/QUOTE]
sorry you are talking for YOURSELF so that should be an 'I'

Simon

 

looks like name calling to me.

 

do I have to post the emails?

Simon

 

I don't know about the rest of the forum, but is the answers in this thread answering the original question or just venting some kind of greivance. I would be interested to see positive results from either camp apexi or sigma, this would answer questions about which is best. IMHO.

 

You could take the view that the worlds fastest impreza uses Apexi, and its more popular hence more support from different mappers, but you could argue that the sigma is a new product.

 

I do agree with you comment Dave, i was just fed up with the language used in some responses and lack of real answers apart from "mine does this, yours doesn't do that" at the end of the day we spend lots of money on our toys and want to get the best we can afford. The apexi has been around for a while and has a proven track record, the sigma not so long and is still establishing a customer base, however neither is doing themselves any favours by entering into a typing brawl on a public forum.

 

I have no greivance with Harvey in the slightest.. I was purely trying to discuss what had been said.. unfortunatly I seem to have annoyed him and it has escalated into what you see here now with personal attacks etc..

Seems to me that Harvey and I need to speak off the board to resolve that, and agree to disagree on the subject original discussion and topic of the thread whcih is now long gone.

Simon

 

I think you should post the e-mails that have passed between us providing you do not edit them and they are all posted.
Please remove my e-mail address before posting.
This will show clearly the dishonest manner in which you have insinuated we are in commercial negotiations.

 

David : The length of timing belt has nothing to do with the spark resolution on the Sigma ECU. It is dependant on the crank sensor ONLY.
If you repeat the experiment outlined above you will see that on an O/E 93-96 car, the timing mark is firm as it is with a Link or Sigma ECU but with the Apexi it has the jitters. 2-4 degrees of swing and obviously this means the timing has to be set back a bit to avoid running into DET.
I do not know about M/Y 97-98 as I have not had the opportunity to test one of these cars with Apexi.
I was shocked when I discovered this, so much so that until I had the same result on another 93-96 car I thought it may have been specific to one car only. I have now seen this on several 93-96 cars.

Every genuine technical point put to me regards the Sigma has been answered.

Read the thread. How can somebody jump to conclusions (which are totally wrong) and then steam on merrily making an assessment of the ECU/what was done/what happened/They were not there.

I have made a genuine and valid offer to Simon Roe/JGM in that he brings along an Apexi equipped car he is happy with and he can make further adjustments to the map on the rollers if he wishes and a power run and graphs are obtained.
We then fit a Sigma and obtain graphs. These can be compared in public and on this board and it will stop most of the stupidity displayed on here. It will remove all doubt and show whether my statements to date have been accurate.
Unfortunately, this was the response:

There would also have been the opportunity to purchase the Sigma ECU at a beneficial price once fitted.

Now when someone is prepared to spend a lot of time surmising (usually wrongly) and jumping to invalid conclusions and when they ignore the factual posts putting them right, and an inordinate amount of time is spent posting on here but they refuse the very practical offer to settle this for once and for all, because Then I conclude they are posturing on here without the courage of their convictions.

I am now looking for a genuine Apexi candidate so we can carry out the above exercise and the information can be published on here for all to see, not just maximum power but the complete range of information available, shape of graph etc. Whatever you want.
I will post on here when progress on this has been made.
In the meantime if you have nothing constructive to add or a genuine technical question to ask, go play somewhere else.