Cyberevo

iTrader: (1)

VRXBOY - Did you say the DC5 interior is worse than a Scoobies? Your mad, the DC5 has a very well put together interior and the DC2 one was solid, don't forget these car are designed with weight in mind...

MooseRacer

Precisely. Until we have a few roadtests, all we can assume is Honda have gone for (questionable) style over substance....which is **** poor considering their past efforts

andythejock01wrx

I'm sure it'll be great to drive, as was the old CTR. Can't see it being faster, even with the Vtec coming in faster, given the fact it's heavier.

Like the front, not the back.

Still, people will buy it and they'll be getting a great car.

VXRBOY

The 23K quote came from the typer.org website. somebody into their Honda's talking to a dealership. And the 0-100 on the VXR as tested in the autocar0-100-0 magazine was 14.3 not 16.5. My DC2 interior was drab, yeh things did not rattle, but i prefered the scoobies, even if that also was ****e.the new itr i only looked at, did not live with it.

andythejock01wrx

That was 0-100. not 0-100-0. Still, top car.

VXRBOY

Oh god i know it was'nt 14 from 0-100-0 sorry if it sounded like that, god talking like that it would sound as if i drove a CTR.lol

Blueblaster

VXRBOY, the 0-100-0 test which they got that great figure is very misleading as they used an extra grippy stretch of tarmac to achieve it. Every car did well in that test. All the road tests in the back of the mag are carried out on the same surface and on that surface the VXR is slower than the Type-R.

In the real world neither you nor any other the other Type-R bashers have found a similarly priced practical car which betters the offerings of the Civic. Up to 100mph you are going to need some serious machinery to outrun the Civic on the road. A second here or there is going to make no difference at all. You need STI performance and probably the only hatch that can get even remotely close is the Alfa 147 GTA and you don't want to get me started on Alfas.

Still waiting for someone to shoot me down.

VXRBOY

I'm sorry i was mistaking myself for someone who has seen this on the road for themselves. Believe me, in the real world the CTR's that i have had a run in with do not keep up the VXR, thats before any upgrades, my car at the minute is running 0-100 in 12.5 which correct me if i'm wrong is STI territory. PLus teh mag themselves said that when testing the Veyron the experts said it was a bad piece of road.

///\oo/\\\

The Veyron was tested elsewhere, not at the same time as the VXR, etc.

The VXR should be faster than a CTR on the road. It has 40 bhp more and significantly more torque.

Its also easier for the average driver to extract more of the VXR's performance than the CTR's.

Its not just about power though. The Type R Hondas have a sublime drivetrain - just about the best gearchange that you can buy in a road car and nothing in the price range sounds as good as a Vtec Honda at 8000 rpm.

The CTR was good, but the Integras are where its at. LSD, braced shell, thin glass, light panels, the best front wheel drive chassis money can buy.

The changes to the civics to make the type R are far less radical, but still have a depth of engineering in the drivetrain second to none.

And that, IMHO, is worth 2 seconds 0 to 100.

Blueblaster

I could drop a Veyron engine into a Civic and it would blow your VXR into the weeds. It also provide a comparison as relevant as a tuned VXR vs a standard Civic. A standard VXR might pull out the odd car length on the way to 100mph but nothing significant.

You are missing my point which, incidentally, is not to wind you up. If you found a nice bit of clear motorway and had a rolling start (which makes sense given you are on the motorway) the current fastest hot hatch (the VXR) would only be marginally faster than the Civic up to 100mph. And by faster I mean only a few car lengths at best. Beyond 100mph, which is the sane UK limit, if the police catch you you will get hammered. Indeed, going beyond 100mph while racing on a public road would probably see you behind bars. On any other type of road the performance difference is so small that you wouldn't even notice it. At least in the Civic you would be able to enjoy the engine and gearbox which are far more special than the VXR (or any other current hot hatch's).

So, my point, with which I probably sending people to sleep, is that the new new Civic will be more than competitive in the real world. Add this to the best packaged car on the market and you have a winner. There is more to a car than straight-line speed.

lunar tick

iTrader: (2)

Have you driven both a CTR and a VXR? I have, and while I agree with your general comments about the quality of Honda engines and drivetrains (indeed I nearly bought a DC5 Integra before purchasing my STI), I think you need to be aware what an immensly capable chassis the VXR has as standard.

The VXR was noticeably quicker and more secure during some high speed stuff around rutted, potholed B roads as well as in a straight line. And while it's not fair to compare modded with standard cars, you need to bear in mind that a simple exhaust and remap will take the VXR to close on 300bhp for about £1500, whereas to add another 40 odd bhp to a civic wil require getting on for double that.

Blueblaster

Yes, and it will cost you another £1500 and invalidate your warranty. I am a big fan of the VXR - I think it looks great in red with those 19s on it. I am sure that the VXR gives a mighty thump in the back when the turbo spools up and the tyres find some grip but in the real world that will make bugger all difference compared to what the Type-R can do. You might get to 100mph 1 second faster if you can find the room amongst the traffic, speed cameras and speed humps but one second later the fractionally slower Civic will be right on your *** again. The big complaints about the new Civic are the styling (a personal thing) and the expected performance. If the new Civic is lacking in performance then so is every other standard hot hatch. God I am starting to sound like a scratched record.

Nido

If only that was possible - blowing away a Zonda / Mcmerc in a Civic

andythejock01wrx

Hmmmm. What mod's could you do to a CTR to get another 40 bhp, as described above ?

banny sti

iTrader: (68)

Inlet manifold, exhaust manifold, decat exhaust, cams and a remap and you might get another 40bhp at some points in the rev range.

banny

lunar tick

iTrader: (2)

I think you misunderstood me - the VXR handled better round the twisty bits than the CTR. Would pull away on the straights and then pull away again on the bends. PS I live in rural Cumbria where it's quite possible to drive 5 miles on a deserted A-road without seeing another car, so yes, I was able to explore what both cars could really do point to point

markGT

Once again Honda have missed the mark by a long way on giving the European market a CTR they deserve. I owned one when they first came out in 2001 and I have to say I havent driven a HH as good since and I've had most of the so called pretenders to the crown between 2001 -2003 and the CTR was a thrilling drive. However it did have its problems that the JDM didnt have,we were given a watered down version of the car. Now to my dissapointment they have watered down the Type R marque to laughable levels. It's supposed to be a light fast car with no driver aids etc but now its just turned in to Golf alternative and Honda have given in to the money men and sacrificed their ethos.

Looks like I'll have to find a DC2 to keep the STI company in the garage. The Type R is dead!

///\oo/\\\

turbo or supercharger kit.

£3k could probably get you 300bhp

andythejock01wrx

Spiderman, (!) have you heard about folk doing that on CTR's ?

VXRBOY

I'm sorry blueblaster you have no idea what you are talking about. The standard VXR pulls a very big gap on a CTR in standard form, with the upgrade the difference is very very evident. It's you thats missing the point as lunar tick has already said the VXR is quicker than the CTR everywhere. 0-60, 0-100, rolling start, round a track, round the ring.
The upgrade does not void your warranty if you have it done at the right place

Blueblaster

Just a quick reply coz I have to go out.

1. What percentage of the population live in Cumbria. Very very small. In fact what percentage of the population live in rural areas where it is possible to drive with minimal fear of police attention. Still very few. Try driving the two in the South East. The performance difference will make no difference on the road 99% of the time.

2. Secondly, even if you get the power upgrade done by Vauxhall it will still cost £1500. Please stop dismissing this kind of money as irrelevant. VXRBOY, you started off by hammering the Civic for it's possible value for money and now you casually add £1500 to the price of your Astra without so much as a second thought. Double standards, n'est pas?

3. When I get a moment I am going to sit down and do the maths and work out how many yards a VXR Astra will pull out over a Civic Type-R on a 0-100mph dash. I am moving house at the moment so this may take me some time. Hopefully this will prove that a yard here and there makes no difference in the real world. Remember that place? The REAL WORLD!

lunar tick

iTrader: (2)

You're absolutely right. In busy traffic conditions, the actual difference between the two would be negligable. But of course, that applies to all sorts of cars. You could argue that in busy traffic, the real world difference between a Nissan Micra and Porsche 911 is minimal and you may be right, but the Porsche is still a vastly superior car. As for pulling only a few yards on another car over a 0-100 dash, it's still nice to be ahead A victory on the track for example is no less satisfying because you've only just beaten your rival.

VXRBOY

So Blueblaster your saying about the real world and then saying your going to work the math out to see the yard difference
I know what the difference is because i have seen it with my own eyes. I am not a type r basher because i used to own a ITR. I just know that the CTR is not all it is cracked up to be by people like you.
And the point over the upgrade was the standard VXR will outdo a CTR. I only mentioned the upgrade because somebody said you would need something with STI pace to easily beat a CTR, i was syaing my car is, but you dont need it.

SideShowBob

Well if we're going to talk real world, then you have to consider the fact that on busy roads, junctions, and short straights, you want a good torquey car that can take advantage of those situations, as opposed to something that doesnt do much until 5800RPM.

VTEC in the real world doesnt have any advantages, you cant enjoy the fun side unless its empty roads, where you can reach high revs for a decent period, whereas competitors have realised that having an engine with a good balance of torque and power available across the rev range is far more real world friendly, and allows you to extract the fun more often.

This is coming from someone who has owned a Civic VTi, DC2 Integra Type-R, and an S2000, so ive had experience of VTEC, and know how limiting it is in the real world.

Give me something thats fun at lower revs too, with some guts, that doesnt need a long stretch of quiet road (which hardly exists in my general driving) just to get to the power, VTEC is really becoming more and more pointless in the real world.

///\oo/\\\

Dude,

My own experience with a DC2 Integra were that due to the very low gearing this was never a problem. You certainly didn't need long stretches of road to get to high revs

Just leave them in lower gears for longer - its hardly difficult and they are all very low geared anyway. IIRC the Integra was 18.(?)mph/1000 rpm in 5th?

OK, the torque at low revs isn't in the same league as anything with a turbo, but whilst the torque peak is at high revs, there is decent urge from low revs.

Not once in thousands of miles driving it did I find myself stuck with no torque. I have, however, found myself languishing off boost in turbo'd cars or waiting for the turbo to spool up - situations where the instant throttle response from the Integra was miles better. I've driven loads of cars where you felt the engine was working harder at 5,500 rpm than the Integra was at 8,500 rpm. Running to 5k or 6k rpm as a matter of course felt like 4k in a "normal car"

Yes, mega torque from very low revs is more useable in the 30/40/50 limits(or perhaps more sociable?) but then in those situations there is no reason to be looking for maximum forward thrust and in any case a good modern turbo diesel will put many performance cars to shame.

Quite why people struggle with vtecs I'll never understand - other than sheer lazyness perhaps? They have the best gear changes in the business, so its no chore to drop a cog or two.

Imagine your about to enter a NSL road from a 30 limit. Drop to second gear, wait for speed limit change, press accelerator to floor and marvel in the instant pick up and serious forward thrust. To be honest, 3rd and 4th (in the Integra) would do quite well too.

What it wont do is pick up particularly quickly from 5th. But then, neither will anything petrol turbo'd due to lag

Leave them in the low gears and you can extract the fun as often as anything else. Its a different concept, needs to be driven differently. Having had three I assume you'd be aware of that.

It never ceases to amaze me though just how many people driving vtec cars drive them as if they had a 6000 rpm red line, when in fact their power band is as wide, if not wider, than many other cars (and they are geared pretty much to exploit that)

Personally, give me instant throttle response, gear change to die for and an engineering masterpiece over the lazy response of even the best turbo'd competition in a so called performance car any day of the week. And while you may think they have good throttle response, you are kidding yourself in comparison.

For the lazy day to day commute or day to day cruise, where there is no point having a hot hatch or any "performance" car and I'll take a good TD, ideally an auto as it does the job better than anything in those situations.

Its all horses for courses, but I think you are off the mark saying that vtec isn't useable in the real world. Sometimes people forget that what you get is pretty much as good as anything naturally aspirated up to 6000 rpm, and something much, much better above that.

Blueblaster

Sideshowbob, all the Vtec cars you have owned have had the old Vtec system. The Civic Type-R was the first to have the new iVtec which makes the engine far less peaky. You get a much bigger whallop in the back from the Civic than you do from the more powerful S2000 as a result. Also given that almost all of the competition hot hatches have 2 litre turbos they suffer from the same lack of low down torque as the Vtec. Personally I thought my STI suffered from this more than the Type-R.

VXRBOY, the reason I was going to work out the yardage difference was because you kept banging on about how much faster a stock VXR was than a Type-R. If you try and drive an argument down a particular avenue then it is pretty childish to critise someone when they choose to challenge you under you own terms. Your entire argument in favour of the VXR is based around it's extra speed. I was going to prove that in the real world the difference is negligable. I even generously used the 0-100mph times as a comparison even though this is massively over the speed limit. 0-60mph would have been more relevant particularly given that as you regard a £1500 modification as inconsequential you could easily afford to replace your clutch every few thousand miles.

VXRBOY, I mentioned you would need STI power to comprehensively see off an STI. You mentioning that a non-standard VXR can achieve that is totally irrelevant. Totally. How many thousands of pounds over the £16895 that I paid for the Civic has your VXR cost you? And all that cash has got you a few car lengths. Unless you course you are advocating racing on a public road in excess of 100mph?

Lunar Tick, we are comparing like with like here. Someone in the market for a Porsche is not going to buy a Micra. Another irrelevant statement.

Still no one has put forward a coherant argument to say there is a better hot hatch to buy than the Civic Type-R. Honda are right at the top of the JD Power ownership surveys, they make the best engines and gearboxes in the world, they hold their value and are competitively priced in the first place. Whether you like the styling is subjective. I want an objective argument against.

If you don't like the way it looks then fine. Discussion over. If you want a car to modify to take to Santa Pod then fine. Also discussion over. But if you want a practical, reliable, well built, affordable hot hatch then you won't beat the Civic. Stop throwing your toys out of the pram and construct a reasoned argument. If you can.

Christ

I really cant believe anyone who had owned a DC2 / S2000 etc would make such a comment

andythejock01wrx

And that coming from Christ himself !!

MooseRacer

Perhaps because no-one has driven the new one yet?

On the face of it, and in my view only, Honda have 'copped out' and lost some of their engineering purity with the new model. It maybe that it'll all hang together brilliantly and it'll be the new hot hatch king.

I have a suspicion though that it'll be more of the 'great drivetrain' shame about the rest.

VXRBOY

A coherent (correct spelling)argument is this
*A hot hatch is meant to be fast, the VXR is faster than the CTR
*It is meant to look good the VXR looks better than the CTR
*It is meant to handle well and it does
*It is meant to be fun to drive, and i would say the VXR is better to drive than the ITR which is better than the CTR.
* All reasons to buy a VXR over a CTR
*The real world issue, you brought up and talked about working it out on paper, whereas i was talking about actual experience
* If people can only afford the CTR then yes its a great car, but for 1k more i got the VXR, I did not need the upgrade but wanted it.
* About the STI, you said you would need STI power to see off a CTR, WRONG.
* Are you seriously telling us that you have not driven over 100 mph, in your Honda supercar?
* If the CTR is the best hot hatch why are other people (who have had both )saying otherwise, and why are people buying other hatches. It is not just because of personal preference.
* Replace clutch
Not throwing toys out of the pram, dont have any according to your beliefs i've spent all my money on the car and so cant afford them
I suggest when you have finished moving house, you get on the road and try to keep up with a VXR. And get some real world experience.
You remind me of sgcooby a while back who argued against the capabilities of the VXR, he soon shut up. Anybody know where he went?