perhaps a solution @ SIDC track days would be to get all passengers to sign a waiver of all liability, not just for the track and the SIDC. But for the drivers also.

Would it be legal??? don't know but should be investigated.

 

The point is that a waiver doesnt work.

You cannot wave rights such as right not to be killed.

I think none prouder explained this.

Any contract can be deemed void by a court. There is an expectation when you get in a car that the driver will not try to kill you. You can't sign away your right to not be injured through negligence.

The driver of the car owes you a duty of care regarding your safety.

 

Sorry to be off topic, but ... great thread guys ! Scoobynet at it's best.

Thanks for the info NP

 

The earlier comments about the actual value of disclaimers are worth stressing. First, as has been said, your view could change after an accident, and a court may decide that the disclaimer was only for reasonable driving. It could be argued that reasonable driving would not have resulted in injury. Second though, you may sign an indemnity form, and it may be your relatives suing the estate of the driver, in which case the intention of your mind or the driver's when signing will be of no relevance at all.
We have all seen what can happen when the law gets involved in this sort of issue, and I would expect that there is probably no way of making an indemnity clause watertight for all circumstances.

 

Okay, I think we've established that a waiver would not be worth the paper it's written on.

Let's not dwell so much on what can be done after the worst has happened, how about things we can do to stop it happening in the first place?

Richard.

 

I could walk faster than most of you drive any way

 

I understand what NP has written, and totally understand where Cem is coming from, but I do hope some guys still offer rides as it's a fantastic experience even if you're not going round at 100% (those who try usually seem to have an off anyway).

I've been out on 2 track days with the amazingly generous David Lewis and we always make a point of saying hello at track days. That friendliness and generosity is what makes me proud to be a scooby owner.

You can also get to experience different machinery too, be it completely different cars, or just cars with mods that you are interested in such as PPP or APs.

Just keep me away from those bl00dy bacon butties.

Oh and Cem, I'd settle for just being able to drape myself naked over the bonnet of your skyline if that's ok :-)

 

I really hope anyone who themselves or whose family could sue a driver at a track day will f**k off and start playing chess or something.

What kind of moron sue's somebody if an aciident takes place on a race circuit? "OOhh, I did not realise it was dangerous!"

I rolled end over end four times in May, on an event, in the South of France. I had taken the roof off my vehicle and was not wearing my seatbelt!.I was thrown from the vehicle, crushed by it and broke bones. What did I do, sue the organisers? No, both vehicle and I limped back to parc ferme (hotel) to prepare for the final day! That incident cost me £25000 or so and 99 times out of 100 should have cost a lot more. At no point did I consider sueing the GRM (organising body). I did it voluntarily, it was my bloody choice. (Event, not crash)

To Type R, Harj, Stef and all those who know I am a numpty, you have it in writing here with an audience I will not sue if, perish the thought, an accident occurs.


to take it a stage further, are these people going to sue Subaru for producing a car that can break speed limits!!

Off my horse a little but give me a break.

This probably has not helped the thread but it is how I feel.Sorry.

 

life assurance- you die on a trackday and i would be amazed if the life policy would even hesitate to pay out, a track day is non competitive anyway. if you wanted to be 110% you could tell the company that insures you but they would be very unlikley to care. the risk is so small compared to driving down the road.

u would need to tell them if you were doing it at the time of an application as opposed to starting it up after they had underwritten you but even then if they rated your policy because of trackdays it would be a new one on me.

Tiggs

ps- i work for a life assurance company and have PHI and life assurance that is unaffected by doing 30+ bike trackdays a year.

 

knockhil all ready do disclaimers for both driver & passengers.

 

what a sad world we live in.

passengers always welcome at their own risk.

I am too slow to hurt someone anyway.

 

I believe the thing to do is to take out Public Liability Insurance on an event basis. I'm sure that can be done very cheaply. Quite often (for home owners anyway) you would be covered for injury/damage to 3rd parties by your house/contents insurers.

Then you (as the driver) will be covered for a) injurying another driver, passenger or spectator & b) damage to another person's property (their vehicle or the track's new tow-vehicle )

Basically covers you for being a liability on track

 

Yep, I agree with John Felstead.

You cannot believe how slow he drives his car around the Nurburgring

SYS

 

Gadge

As i originally pointed out on page 1, the disclaimers would NOT stand up in court. The Unfiar Contracts Act and the law of tort/negligence does not allow exclusion of liability where injury or death is cause dby negligence. My opinion, based on having studied law, was subsequently backed up by None Prouder who confirmed he is a lawyer.

Will people please bveieve that disclaimer are NOT worth the paper they're written on. They are mostly there just to stop gullible people from taking action.

I agree with point that I would never sue but you can't confirm what relatives might do after your demise, especially if encouraged by greedy lawyers (not you NP).

If you think that you might crash and hurt a passenger then don't take one for their sake and yours.

 

Can I sue Stef for filling my rear-view mirror with green Scoob at Wehrseifen? :-)

The ******* sat about 4mm off my rear bumper with the cheery explanation afterwards 'I wouldn't have done it if it hadn't been you'. I think there was a warped compliment in there somewhere.

Ben

 

I am also a lawyer and I confirm that everything "None Prouder" said is correct. In a serious accident the decisions are not going to be made by the person involved in the accident and yes, the lawyers can be very imaginative (my personal speciality is attempting to settle disputes in alternative jurisdictions where certain "problems" can be solved).

I sign waivers freely and make it a policy to never read them first. Even better if they are in a language that I cannot understand. The truth is that sometimes they can work but it isn't always clear when or where (and the where is my choice, remember). But they're never going to work on a public road like the Nurburgring because of various insurance laws that require the insurer to cover you for liability.

Strangely enough, the best insurance you can have is to own almost nothing and fully mortgage what you do own. Being a bankrupt is even better! Insurance should be avoided at all costs as this only opens up a deep pocket for a lawyer to go after. (Obviously I'm joking but only a little.)

Oh, I don't give rides but I happily accept them!

S.

 

Oh well, Fixed wing suggest what could be a good approach.

Put everything in your mums name and then if some person want to get your money just give up work.

Wait a minute that may be a way to deal with the missus ....

 

And there is also something else to think about when considering giving rides ...

So far the discussion has been about civil liability of injuring a passenger.

But what about your criminal liability if you kill someone? The legal consequences of this can be monumental even if you are only slightly at fault. And obviously this is something that is more likely to happen if you have a passenger in your car than if not.

And then there is the moral issue. I can't imagine anyone ever gets over having caused the death of another -- especially if it is someone that they knew well.

S.

 

Thanks for the back up Fixed Wing. PTMW raises a good point. I assume that if your motor insurance covers you for track days, that will include 3rd party liability so you are in the clear (not advice mind, you should check yourself).

Someone suggested I wasn't greedy. Actually just to put the record straight, I'm a greedy b4stard .

Also, although I am well aware of the risks, I will still be happy to give passenger rides. The only thing that makes me think twice about it is my **** driving. Last thing, just in case anyone falls into the generalisation trap, I would never sue someone if I was a passenger and got injured. Unless they were really loaded of course .

Hope the smilies work.

None Prouder

 

Oh yes. Fully smilied up now .

None Prouder