Geezer

Actually it is their fault. Faith is not a disease, it's a choice. I chose to discard the story of the bible (and indeed any other religion for that matter) once I realised how unlikely it is when confronted with evidence to the contrary.

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can also make that choice, but they choose not to.

Geezer

jasey

I thought there was a third way ?

Must go a read some religous ****e to see where I've gone wrong

Then again - maybe I'll just get on with my one and only life .

Geezer

So you have avoided answering the questions posed. A now familiar theme from the believers..... Perhaps "denial" would be a better term than "faith"

I am having a nice day, thanks for your concern. Now, will you be so good as to be polite enough to answer my questions?

Geezer

jasey

Come on Geezer - you should know by now - it's the devil at work - he can't find the answer you're looking for but it's the devil that's preventing him.

Another 30 years of following the faith and he'll be back with the answer

OllyK

I'm not sure of that, the last census showed that approx 70% of the people in the UK considered themselves christian.

OllyK

You can't disprove existence. Do you mean prove non-existence? Which can't be done, you can however, state that due to the complete lack of evidence the only logical standpoint to take is that something does not exist pending evidence to the contrary.

If those that do believe did just get on with it, without trying to impose it upon others then I'd happily agree. Sadly, for organised religion at least they don't.

Chelspeed

> approx 70% of the people in the UK considered themselves christian.

I thought it was Jedi?

OllyK

I'd like to pick up on that bit. When the bible contradicts itself, in which section is the "real truth" and which the "not so real truth"

Geezer

According to the census, 71% of the UK claimed to be White Christian, but it's noteworthy that independant polls have identified as little as 45% of the population actually believe in God.

People will say they are Christians when asked about their religion, even if they do not believe, because the choices are often Muslim or Hindu etc., and people still associate themselves historically with their forebears religion (for example, I say I have no religion, but I come from a protestant background).

So, it would seem seem that more people don't believe than do, so we may well see the back of God and his lackeys in the western world at least in the coming generations.

Geezer

OllyK

If the Roman Catholic christians have it right, you have Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. If Cuthulu is the true god then we all get eaten.

OllyK

I certainly wouldn't have put down Christian, so that would assume atheist or no denomination was an option.

Geezer

No, me neither Olly, but there are alot of people who don't really believe in God who still think of themselves as Christians. I know people like that.

Geezer

lozgti

Those that believe God exists look upon the various scientific explanations as trying to show God does not exist.Those looking at it from the other standpoint will be saying (as you rightly point out) that 'we can't prove he does,so until we do,the assumption is he doesn't'.

As for the imposing bit,I agree Jehovah's Witnesses have a passion,however there really is no forcing of religion onto people.It is a person's choice.

Mind you,I enjoyed the 'joke' on the radio about the Jehovah's Witnesses invited in for a cup of tea.When asked by the host what they wanted to talk about they said "We don't know.We've never got this far before"

OllyK

Oh it is imposed. Have a look at what has been happening in the USA and trying to force ID in to the school room as a scientific alternative to evolution. It's starting to happen here. Reg Vardy sponsors a school and is trying to do similar things. TB is a christian, he is trying to force through reforms that will allow business and RELIGIOUS GROUPS to sponsor schools and have a say in what is taught.

Leslie

You may well talk of religious myths etc. but all the scientific theories etc. dont add up to anything that says there is no God either. Its all very well to say that future scientific discoveries will back up the non believers but that is an assumption which cannot be stated as a fact.

I am ready to lay odds that the vast majority of self professed atheists will call on God to save them when they see their Nemisis approaching!

Les

OllyK

We're not going to go down this argument again are we. You want to allow a default of everything exists no matter how fanciful it may be and it's down to science to prove that it doesn't. Fine you start from the position, science doesn't. We have no evidence of a god, therefore based on the best information available the default position is there is no god. Find some evidence to support the existence of a god (any god) and we can look at it and assess it.

Nobody is, were a merely putting forward a theory for the currently observed phenomenon, and so far the theory continues to hold true.

Really? I had a long discussion with a christian some time back, he kept asking my why I hated god so much that I would not accept him. He really didn't seem to understand that if I lack a belief in something I can't hate it, it has no meaning to me. I'll no more be calling on a god than you will the pixies at the end of your garden.

Fuzz

What about your own thoughts and ideas rather than following blindly what some book says???


Andy

Bicepius

OllyK always there and ready to pounce lol

Bicepius

Lets compare it shall we... lol, Say I had no clue how to biuld an engine .. and I had all the pieces there in front of me in a big heap .. and there infront of me is a haynes manual on this purticular engine . Not gonna sit there and think up a few ideas, im going to have a read and say out loud, "ooooOOOO thats how you do it!".

Pretty **** comparison...but hey this thread lacks a bit of humour.

Better hide quick OllyK will be here soon, its nearly full moon.

john banks

I used to be a born again Christian (following a nominal Catholic upbringing) from about the age of 16 when I was rather sheltered and impressionable to about the age of 22. I read the bible cover to cover many times and became a small group leader in some of the churches I was in. What a huge relief it has been to ditch it all these last nine years once I learned to hook up the parts of my brain I had deserted to "faith". Thankfully the wife and I junked it together very soon after we got married (in church) as virgins (that is how serious we were).

Now I can:

1. Behave in a mainly moral fashion because I think it makes society work rather than because I am trying to please a god who does not exist. I can do good because it benefits others, not because I am trying to showcase "fruit" for a non-existent god. I can concentrate on doing something practical for someone that is far more effective than assisting them in "salvation".

2. I can have normal relationships with other humans without constantly feeling the pressure or desire to convert them. Only Christians and Network Marketeers are so dull at functions...

3. I can take decisions and live with the consequences and responsibility without deferring to a god who does not exist. Only me to blame

4. I can escape the nauseating company of Christians. I can stop attending the endless Christian rah-rah meetings that the more radical tend to attend to top up their delusions.

5. I can think through problems rationally (to the best of my ability) rather than having to fit them into an irrational and contradictory bible that paints a picture of quite a horrible god.

6. I can put behind me all the wacky behaviours (animal noises, speaking in tongues, prophecy etc, you name it I've seen it all and got way too fished in by it ) that the more lunatic/charismatic parts of the Christian community get into with claimed signs and wonders etc that considered properly are quite ridiculous.

I'm sure there are many other benefits I can think of.

I honestly did believe quite strongly for a good time until the penny (rather embarrassingly slowly) dropped. I also would completely want to submit to the will of god if I had any shred of evidence that he existed as described in the bible. This "honest enquirer" was dropped by this claimed god who apparently reveals himself to those who seek him genuinely. No I didn't demand burning bushes LOL. In fact I was dropped by no-one because it was all a hoax. Simplest explanation is the true one

Being an ex-Christian is very refreshing indeed. I have never looked forward with so much confidence and a far deeper joy than anything I imagined before.

john banks

Bicepius, your arguments are a rather shameful attempt at apologetics. It sounds like you've been reading Every Day with Jesus or something Don't worry, I was an idiot shining for Jesus once

Ted Maul

exactly many atheists point leslie, only the weak / scared are driven to believe that there's something that can help you...well put

Bicepius

This is becuase you let religion strangle you, and it got in the way of you personal relationship with god. I personaly dont go to church becuase around my area there doctrine is incorrect. I pray and read the bible in my room.. theres nothing else that can fulfill a man than a good relationship with god. You dont need to go to a biulding with others.. Religion is the devils best weapon. You can have all the riches in the universe...but you will still be unhappy unless your in right standing with god. You can have the fastest cars in the world...still get bored of it eventualy. Nothing comes close to what I feel everyday. Dont be afraid. Dont be so hard hearted about it all.

If you asked anyone what god and the devil is, what good and evil is, heaven and hell, they will give you an answer everytime.

Why do you think jews are renowned for being succesful and rich, whether there born again or not.

Why do you think Israel is one of the most bullied nations in history. (I am not jewish btw)

Why do you think we say "oh god" or "OMG" or "thankyou and look up", by habbit, and every other spiritual type phrase which I cant think of right now.

Its inbiult in us all, whether you like it or not. I say this to everyone.

GaryCat

Why do the God Squad always think that atheists want riches and fast cars? I just want to be able to create a safe and happy environment for my children so they can grow to be educated and worthwhile contributors to society.

Bicepius - maybe you should widen your reading list, I recommend "All in the Mind, A farewell to God" by Ludovic Kennedy. It might help your spelling too.

Bicepius

"Sigh"

Im not posting anymore on this topic.

My posts are there to make you think.

GaryCat try reading the bible.. its the best book you'll ever read.

john banks

On the contrary, it was the attempts at personal relationship with "god" that were the most fruitless part of it all!

Have you considered the scriptures in your own bible that contradict your solitary approach? It says the devil picks off the stray sheep (my interpretation is they wake up and discover reality when they are not being brainwashed ). It specifically supports "gathering together". Paul can't stop talking about it.





I assure you, I'm deeply happier than at any time when I was apparently "saved", and most of that happiness is not related to material wealth, it is about being a lot more settled about what I believe.

The things you allude to are simply cultural imprints on our consciousness, it doesn't give them any basis in fact.

john banks

Let me summarise my honest impression from reading the bible without the rose tinted glasses on. Others have put it far more eloquently:

I see an at best allegorical tale about "creation" (at worst a downright deception) performed by an insecure god who reminds me of Tony Blair "Love me, love me". The ten commandments were a high spot, but this stuff about Abraham being asked to perform human sacrifice is plain sick, as are the rather odd stories about gentleman offering their virgin daughters to bisexual rapists. We see a god who unfairly favours a certain set of people who call themselves "chosen" and take ground from others. Further on, we get "prophets" who sound vague and delusional. We get a set of New Testament gospels that were written well after the events and are contradictory. We have a self proclaimed Messiah who speaks in riddles and deliberately upsets whole groups of people that might be interested if he wasn't so obnoxious. He doesn't answer simple questions at his trial and his dad always intends that he gets executed, but we all blame it on the Jews or Pilate. This vengeful god seems to be hungry for blood and rewrites his moral laws across the ages. Then we have a claimed resurrection that is supposed to be the whole basis of a faith that changes your life and influences everything you are/do/think. We have a concept of the trinity that seems to be invented later, and then most of the doctrine is made up by Paul who never met Jesus properly. And Revelation is written by a guy on LSD. What a mess.

Then we try to interpret the promise and bargain parts of just the new testament to find things we can rely on 2000 years later. We find that any supernatural intervention cannot be demonstrated conclusively by modern standards, yet on the basis of heresay, all of which is written well after the events, by the biased, or not actual witnesses we are supposed to exclusively believe in this faith to the point where it rules our lives. We have honest seekers that try to depend on it and get nowhere because they are believing in fairy tales.

jonc

Amen to that!!

Fuzz

Andy

warrenm2

This is an important point here. What I think you are saying is they have interepted the Bible incorrectly. And you haven't. You've interepted it correctly. Or have you picked the bits you like and discarded the bits you dont like? Or maybe theres a third way that was meant? If it means different things to different people then surely it his no meaning at all?! "My intreptation is more right than yours!" you may cry. It makes a mockery of the whole thing.

Similar problems with Islam as I understand it, some Imans say one thing, some say another. How can you follow a belief system that clearly depends on what some bloke down the local church says it means, and then go to another church and they say something different? Dont you agree that doesnt make sense?

And whats your take on this? Its a quote from Dawkins....

"Could we get some otherwise normal humans and somehow persuade them that they are not going to die as a consequence of flying a plane smack into a skyscraper? If only! Nobody is that stupid, but how about this - it's a long shot, but it just might work. Given that they are certainly going to die, couldn't we sucker them into believing that they are going to come to life again afterwards?...

...You'd have to get them young, though. Feed them a complete and self-consistent background mythology to make the big lie sound plausible when it comes. Give them a holy book and make them learn it by heart. Do you know, I really think it might work. As luck would have it, we have just the thing to hand: a ready-made system of mind-control which has been honed over centuries, handed down through generations. Millions of people have been brought up in it. It is called religion and, for reasons which one day we may understand, most people fall for it"