Sbradley

Ah, Olly - that'll be you confusing God and religion again...

There are many different religions, almost all of which have some essentia difference in the way they describe "their" God.

That means all but one of them are wrong in some way.

If you want to stick to the Old Testament view of God then that's up to you. It's one religious viewpoint and one of the oldest written ones. Doesn't make it right, though, and the God that features so strongly there isn't necssarly one I'd want much to do with. Precious little love and mercy on offer there, though the smiting tends to be done by His agents on earth (Jeptha, Joshua, David et al) rathet than by direct action.

But digress. I'm not saying, and have never said, that any organised religion or the literary basis for an organised religion is true and correct. What I have said is that I believe in God. And I stand by that belief. I have seen nothing in the wonders of science and nature that I have been lucky enough to observe to give me proof either way.

On the contrary, the statement I made removed any complication. I said that we'll never really know the answer until we die. How much more simple would you like it to be?

SB

Sbradley

Different thread entirely - there's a good one about Masons from a while (18 months?) ago.

But if you want to ask questions (as opposed to throw abuse, make sweeping generalisations etc) then feel free. I was Master of my lodge last year...

SB

PS Wasn't suggesting you'd be abusive, Micky, it was a general comment

PPS Not had any serious free bling yet. Maybe I need to change lodges

StickyMicky

TBH i did not think it was only 10% used, i thought it was around 80%
there is that much ****e on the internet now its hard to work out whats real and what is bollocks

StickyMicky

are you allowed to talk about it?

Sbradley

Yes, you can talk about anything except the secrets. Which, in all honesty, is a very small part. You can even buy the official UGLE ritual book (in any of its accepted forms) across the counter. It has an ISBN number and everything...

SB

StickyMicky

its the secrets that i want to know about

why is the G/F`s grandpops refuseing to speak about anything ??
are you a decoy

OllyK

I'm well aware of the difference between god and religion, however, as soon as you start talking about an afterlife, you are talking about a broader concept that just god. You can have a god and no afterlife, a god and an afterlife or no god but an afterlife.

Almost right - there is the possibility that they are ALL wrong (even if there is a god).

I'm happy to discuss a god in a wider context, but the Abrahamic god is one that most people are familiar with. If you wish to discuss a different god as you believe it has more merit then feel free. It's one religious viewpoint and one of the oldest written ones. Doesn't make it right, though, and the God that features so strongly there isn't necssarly one I'd want much to do with. Precious little love and mercy on offer there, though the smiting tends to be done by His agents on earth (Jeptha, Joshua, David et al) rathet than by direct action.

But digress. I'm not saying, and have never said, that any organised religion or the literary basis for an organised religion is true and correct. What I have said is that I believe in God. And I stand by that belief. I have seen nothing in the wonders of science and nature that I have been lucky enough to observe to give me proof either way.
[/quote]

My original statements still hold. If you can define your god, we can start looking at how we can test for existence.

If I'm right - you'll never know. I was however, referring to all your if's and buts. Stop with the hand waving, and just define your god.

OllyK

Indeed wikipedia is a good starting point, as in snopes, but it's worth doing some further digging on any contentious subject!

Sbradley

Re: the 10% of mind thing.

It's a small but important thing. The difference between the mind and the brain.

We use all, or nearly all, of the brain, as has been clearly shown. The brain is a organ and any major damage to that physical organ results in a clear reduction in performance, ranging from minor impairment of some higher functions through to total failure and death.

The mind, however, isn't the physical organ but the result of it's activity. And in that sense it may well be true that we only use a small proportion of it's potential. In fact, we know for sure that we all have the inbuilt ability to make fantastic calculations of velocity and trajectory and to adjust the angle and force with which we launch our spear to catch lunch. But Many of us don't use it and so it's dormant. The percentage of our potential that we actually use, though, is probably different in everybody at differet times of the day and doing different things.

Do we all use our full potential? No, I'd say not.

SB

Sbradley

Olly, we've had this "Define God and we'll see how to detect Him" discussion before.

It's pointless because any definition I come up with won't be adequate for you and your lab equipment. Nor will it be adequate for me and my belief.

Tell you what, though. Here's a starter for you.

Define love and existence. In your own words no cutting and pasting of references. Use whichever frames of reference you feel comfortable with but expect to have a queue of people waiting to disagree on points of semantics, logic or perception...

SB

Sbradley

Hi Micky,

I'm guessing that the gentleman concerned is one of the older school of Freemasonry who regards everything as secret, regardless of practicality. It's also possible that he has encountered prejudice against masons - if he worked in Local or Central Government, for example - and simply keeps a low profile out of habit.

SB

OllyK

That's just avoiding the question.

jasey

People with "faith" have it because someone else has told them to have it.

They're gonna be sooo dissapointed when they die and nothing happens !

OllyK

If the're wrong, they have merely wasted the only life they will ever get and won't even know it.

jasey

No - but I will

StickyMicky

we are talking 70 years plus so that figures, unless he was higher ranked then you and will get a bollocking from the mice if he talks

Sbradley

Really?

I've said that I can't define God in an adequate way and invited you to make a couple of definitions instead. That's avoiding the question how?

So are you going to do it or not?

SB

Sbradley

How does someone having a faith mean that they are wasting their lives?

Or does faith preclude a whole load of other things? Because mine doesn't - perhaps you could enlighten me as to what I'm missing out on?

SB

Sbradley

He told you about the mice?

Man is he in for it...

SB

OllyK

Oh well - I can't define what you ask either. Damn that was easy

Not even attempting to answer the question and posing another instead is called avoiding the question, you try to distract attention from the original question by asking a new one or turning it round, as you have done.

If you can't even put forward some foundations for discussion, it kind of kills the discussion before it starts. This is in part why I keep referring to the Abrahamic definition of god, it's a definition that people are reasonably familiar with, even if they disagree on some of the details.

If you can't define your god, and it seems not to be as defined by the Abrahamic religions, maybe you can indicate some of the elements of this god that you think are common to your personal concept or some that clearly are not?

OllyK

Does your faith affect the way you live your life in anyway? Do you devote any time to your faith?

If the answer is yes to either of these and you are wrong, then that is wasted time and opportunity. You may be happy to waste that time and those opportunities, but that's a different issue.

jasey

OK Sbradley - as your avoiding the God Question.

How many Blacks are there in your Lodge ?

Sbradley

Two Indians, one black as members plus a good half dozen regular visitors.

And the purpose of the question is?

SB

jasey

Just curious. All those rumours about the Masons being racist and only open to Christians can be ignored .

Sbradley

Jasey, there are Christian orders but basic craft Freemasonry is specifically non sectarian. It simply requires a belief in God.

SB

RedFive

Sorry you got that wrong then. It is not about being liberal, it is about not making belief a dividing factor. We joke about it, she often tells me I'll go to hell, but it's all in good fun. I hold her in very high regard, that's all I wanted to say. What's wrong with that

You are right though in that I don't have a high opinion of the average Scoobynetter. But having seen what happened on here in the last 7 years made me a bit cynical.

Anyway, so many people showing disrespect in this thread (again), and you chose to pick on me ? Weird.

RedFive

Ahum. Not over here it doesn't

RedFive

There is a logical flaw in there somewhere, do you spot it ?

Anyway, to get back to Dawkins: this thread shows that, at the moment, he only seems to add to the confusion, IMHO. Yes, we all read The Blind Watchmaker, and we know he is an atheist. And for sure, he makes a very good case against ID, and that's excellent, as too many people seem to want to go back to burning books, especially in the Anglo Saxon world...

However: evolution theory (or sociobiology) does not prove nor disprove a "gawd". Not even the Big Bang theory does. And Dawkins at least admits he's not even into that domain. (neither am I BTW, evolution is complicated enough without also wanting to explain the meaning of Life, The Universe, and everything).

Sbradley

I live my life according to some fairly simple and basic rules. I try to treat everybody fairly and with respect, I try to show compassion and mercy to all living things and I try to be honest to myself.

Is that as a result of my faith? Probably not, directly, though I find my faith sometimes makes it easier to stick to my rules.

Any time I devote to my faith or to God is as a part of doing something else I enjoy, so it becomes incidental. There is nothing I don't do because of my faith - if there's something I don't do it is because I don't want to.

We can, if you wish, go into the realms of what defines right and wrong, where the laws of God and the laws of man differ and so on. Though aain it's probably a different thread...

SB

Sbradley

You asked me to define God, I illustrated my inability to make such an enormous definition by asking you to define love - an intrinsic part of God, however you view Him - and existence - the very thing we are debating. Your inability to do so illustrates the futility of your oft repeated suggestion that someone who believes in God should define the God they believe in to form a basis for scientific discussion.

I don't want to kill the discussion but it seems somewhat circular. Every time this comes up (what, twice a year?) you raise the same points and the same few people disagree. It is unlikely in the exrteme that either side will ever meet.

It is also possible that, should nobody believe in God any more, that he will cease to exist. In the same way that a person can truly live forever all the while there is someone who remembers them or speaks of them, perhaps God only exists while He is subject to discussion, while He is praised and worshipped or even believed in, quietly. In which case debates like this are very good for Him

But that requires a definition of existence, of course...

SB