Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 is a group III hydrocracked oil
02 February 2006, 07:03 PM
#31
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MTR, I understand it's impractical and thanks again for your efforts 
Perhaps Oilman (or anyone else for that matter) can advise what grade the Silkolene/Motul is.
Perhaps Oilman (or anyone else for that matter) can advise what grade the Silkolene/Motul is.
02 February 2006, 07:07 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by turbodan
Obvious answer is no it wont damage your engine. No it won't make it go bang. I also suggest you edit that post and change 'adgenda' to 'agenda'. You have a reputation to protect here Pete!
thanks anyway 
So? If it does NO damage whatsoever .............. why buy a more expensive Oil?
And I think this is the point ....... people are scared of NOT using expensive oil, they say, "Its only an extra £40 a year, I'll take the hit .... just in case"
It's like believing in God - 'just in case' the boogie man comes to get you.
Well, I'm not scared of the boogie man, and I'm not scared of using the Oil Subaru tell me will do the job fully .........
So, COMMA it is then ..... at £15 a time too - Subaru Oil Filter at £4 and for £19 I have a full oil change every 6 months regardless of mileage.
Pete
02 February 2006, 07:10 PM
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BUT MTR if they only knew what an absolute furore it's causing they would take heart upon us all and gladly do just one more test on these so called 'super-synthetics'..
P.S : Why don't Subaru put synlube in their cars ?
I must honestly say I'm confused again...I was almost convinced that AMSOIL was the best thing ever for my car - I was seriously on the verge of buying some...but that synlube has all the hallmarks of something seriously dodgy and has made consider AMSOIL as a similar product
The more I read and listen the more I am coming to regard the plethora of 'niche' high cost 'super-oils' in the same category as K&N'oiled' Air Filters...and I put one of those in my porsche and it killed my MAF...(I used Mobil 1 on my 22 years old porsche boxer engine - as recommended by Porsche!)
Why is the 'truth' on this subject so incredibly elusive ??
P.S : Why don't Subaru put synlube in their cars ?
I must honestly say I'm confused again...I was almost convinced that AMSOIL was the best thing ever for my car - I was seriously on the verge of buying some...but that synlube has all the hallmarks of something seriously dodgy and has made consider AMSOIL as a similar product
The more I read and listen the more I am coming to regard the plethora of 'niche' high cost 'super-oils' in the same category as K&N'oiled' Air Filters...and I put one of those in my porsche and it killed my MAF...(I used Mobil 1 on my 22 years old porsche boxer engine - as recommended by Porsche!)
Why is the 'truth' on this subject so incredibly elusive ??
Last edited by flynnstudio; 02 February 2006 at 07:12 PM.
02 February 2006, 07:11 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by turbodan
Like I said in a previous post its virtually impossible to prove that silkolene will protect an engine better than Halfords oil.
Last edited by JTaylor; 02 February 2006 at 07:16 PM.
02 February 2006, 07:18 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by flynnstudio
Why is the 'truth' on this subject so incredibly elusive ??
They throw up smoke screens, hide behind cut'n'pasted select articles and simply scare people with stories of blown engines and the like.
Then someone comes along with the knowledge and words, like MTR (not me!) - he is far more capable with words than I am .............. but I do have the passion to carry the fight.
Pete
02 February 2006, 07:21 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by flynnstudio
BUT MTR if they only knew what an absolute furore it's causing they would take heart upon us all and gladly do just one more test on these so called 'super-synthetics'..
but that synlube has all the hallmarks of something seriously dodgy
but that synlube has all the hallmarks of something seriously dodgy
I think he's right.
Syn lube made lubricants for NASA and the Russian Space Programme. Not the engine oil they sell now, but they presumably know something about lubrication.
http://synlube.com/moon.htm#Lunar%20Rover
Cheers
MTR
02 February 2006, 07:32 PM
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Actually what I implied, is that Subaru don't always get it right, and even when they do, their dealers may not transfer it to your car. At the end of the day, you are at the mercy of the person that puts the oil in your car, and does whatever else they do.
The subaru manual also states, and has done for many years, that heavy usage should be coupled with more frequent servicing. Many peoples driving habits put their cars into the "heavy usage" catagory, but few service their car more frequently than the basc schedule.
In terms of how all this relates to business, and revenue. We sell our fully synthetic oil for less than the dealer sells his whatever oil, and I dare say we pay more for it in the first place.
Paul
The subaru manual also states, and has done for many years, that heavy usage should be coupled with more frequent servicing. Many peoples driving habits put their cars into the "heavy usage" catagory, but few service their car more frequently than the basc schedule.
In terms of how all this relates to business, and revenue. We sell our fully synthetic oil for less than the dealer sells his whatever oil, and I dare say we pay more for it in the first place.
Paul
Originally Posted by MTR
Paul,
Indirectly you DID say something about the type of oil used, if not actually naming a brand.
You attached Pete’s reference to using Subarus recommended oil, which is Shell Helix, (or any Group III oil)or it is at my dealers currently, and was when I bought my first Impreza in 1997 at a different dealers.
So by inference you are saying that maybe Subarus recommendation of using a Group III fully synthetic oil (Shell Helix etc) is not up to the job.
But then you add the comment
It could be one or the other or possibly both reasons, or NEITHER.
Unless you have had a chemical analysis done of the engine oil, like you would do in an aero engine failure, and had the mechanical components investigated for physical proof of the cause of failure, then you are guessing as to the cause.
You are perhaps unwittingly or maybe deliberately reinforcing the stereotypical belief that all that is good must be 100% synthetic, as hydro cracked mineral oils can't possibly be up to the job.
An oil is there to provide adequate lubrication, for a specific application .eg an engine used within its design parameters.
If it does that, and stays within the manufactures specifications then it is good enough.
A better quality or more expensive oil will not necessarily lubricate any better, BUT it may allow an engine in this scenario to work safely OUTSIDE its normal working parameters.
I understand your stance, because if you recommend something to one of your paying customers which subsequently fails, or causes a failure your professional reputation/profit would suffer.
Cheers
MTR
Indirectly you DID say something about the type of oil used, if not actually naming a brand.
You attached Pete’s reference to using Subarus recommended oil, which is Shell Helix, (or any Group III oil)or it is at my dealers currently, and was when I bought my first Impreza in 1997 at a different dealers.
So by inference you are saying that maybe Subarus recommendation of using a Group III fully synthetic oil (Shell Helix etc) is not up to the job.
But then you add the comment
It could be one or the other or possibly both reasons, or NEITHER.
Unless you have had a chemical analysis done of the engine oil, like you would do in an aero engine failure, and had the mechanical components investigated for physical proof of the cause of failure, then you are guessing as to the cause.
You are perhaps unwittingly or maybe deliberately reinforcing the stereotypical belief that all that is good must be 100% synthetic, as hydro cracked mineral oils can't possibly be up to the job.
An oil is there to provide adequate lubrication, for a specific application .eg an engine used within its design parameters.
If it does that, and stays within the manufactures specifications then it is good enough.
A better quality or more expensive oil will not necessarily lubricate any better, BUT it may allow an engine in this scenario to work safely OUTSIDE its normal working parameters.
I understand your stance, because if you recommend something to one of your paying customers which subsequently fails, or causes a failure your professional reputation/profit would suffer.
Cheers
MTR
02 February 2006, 07:38 PM
#38
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I think your chemist buddy is right but thanks for going to all that trouble anyway (and thanks to Pete for 'fighting the good fight')...
I've never considered a higher grade oil than mobil 1 before I came here...
BUT a personal decision has been made
When I give it serious consideration here's my 'gut feeling' : If a porsche 911 can do 150K + on Mobil1 then a 'brand name' fully synthetic is good enough for my piece of mind.
I personally think redlining,cold & over-hot thrashing, sustained high speed runs and sloppy maintenance schedules are killing engines not oil choice...
btw - Synlube website looks like it was made by someone's nephew in a bedroom one evening for $50 'extra' pocket money - surely - they can't be SERIOUS!
I shall watch developments but my hat is now firmly in the 'stick with what you know works' ring...
I've never considered a higher grade oil than mobil 1 before I came here...
BUT a personal decision has been made
When I give it serious consideration here's my 'gut feeling' : If a porsche 911 can do 150K + on Mobil1 then a 'brand name' fully synthetic is good enough for my piece of mind.
I personally think redlining,cold & over-hot thrashing, sustained high speed runs and sloppy maintenance schedules are killing engines not oil choice...
btw - Synlube website looks like it was made by someone's nephew in a bedroom one evening for $50 'extra' pocket money - surely - they can't be SERIOUS!
I shall watch developments but my hat is now firmly in the 'stick with what you know works' ring...
02 February 2006, 07:39 PM
#39
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Originally Posted by Zen Performance
At the end of the day, you are at the mercy of the person that puts the oil in your car, and does whatever else they do.
In terms of how all this relates to business, and revenue. We sell our fully synthetic oil for less than the dealer sells his whatever oil, and I dare say we pay more for it in the first place.
Paul
In terms of how all this relates to business, and revenue. We sell our fully synthetic oil for less than the dealer sells his whatever oil, and I dare say we pay more for it in the first place.
Paul
If so, I can point you to outlets that are selling 5 Litres for £27!! You can make a small profit then??
My dealer charges, if I recall, £35 for Shell Helix .............. but, unlike you, they allow the CUSTOMER to use whatever oil they wish.
Why do you not allow customers to use their prefered oil??
Pete
02 February 2006, 07:40 PM
#40
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Originally Posted by flynnstudio
I personally think redlining,cold & over-hot thrashing, sustained high speed runs and sloppy maintenance schedules are killing engines not oil choice.....
Pete
02 February 2006, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by pslewis
You sell your Millers Oil at £33:07 for 4.5 Litres ..... are you saying that you pay MORE for it that that??
Originally Posted by pslewis
If so, I can point you to outlets that are selling 5 Litres for £27!! You can make a small profit then??
Originally Posted by pslewis
My dealer charges, if I recall, £35 for Shell Helix .............. but, unlike you, they allow the CUSTOMER to use whatever oil they wish.
Why do you not allow customers to use their prefered oil??
Pete
Why do you not allow customers to use their prefered oil??
Pete
02 February 2006, 08:25 PM
#42
One thing I will say on this 'what oil for impreza' matter is..
The Subaru community seems to be the only place where there is such heated and continuous debate on what oil is best etc etc
Now why is this?? It's because there are a lot of serious faliures that people associate with the oil used.
I'm sticking my neck out here but I'd say it's more a design fault with the mechanics of the engine (ie the small bearing surface, heat soak on high speed etc)
It's like a different oil is going to give your engine some magical innoculation against dying. IMO it's the fault of the engine not the 40w oil instead of the 60w oil.
You don't see the Evo boys constantly debating what oil is best, and that's because they don't have a problem with their engine design.
The oil debate for me is just a way to shy away from the real problem with these cars!
The Subaru community seems to be the only place where there is such heated and continuous debate on what oil is best etc etc
Now why is this?? It's because there are a lot of serious faliures that people associate with the oil used.
I'm sticking my neck out here
but I'd say it's more a design fault with the mechanics of the engine (ie the small bearing surface, heat soak on high speed etc) It's like a different oil is going to give your engine some magical innoculation against dying. IMO it's the fault of the engine not the 40w oil instead of the 60w oil.
You don't see the Evo boys constantly debating what oil is best, and that's because they don't have a problem with their engine design.
The oil debate for me is just a way to shy away from the real problem with these cars!
02 February 2006, 08:37 PM
#43
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Originally Posted by jameswrx
One thing I will say on this 'what oil for impreza' matter is..
The Subaru community seems to be the only place where there is such heated and continuous debate on what oil is best etc etc
Now why is this?? It's because there are a lot of serious faliures that people associate with the oil used.
I'm sticking my neck out here but I'd say it's more a design fault with the mechanics of the engine (ie the small bearing surface, heat soak on high speed etc)
It's like a different oil is going to give your engine some magical innoculation against dying. IMO it's the fault of the engine not the 40w oil instead of the 60w oil.
You don't see the Evo boys constantly debating what oil is best, and that's because they don't have a problem with their engine design.
The oil debate for me is just a way to shy away from the real problem with these cars!
The Subaru community seems to be the only place where there is such heated and continuous debate on what oil is best etc etc
Now why is this?? It's because there are a lot of serious faliures that people associate with the oil used.
I'm sticking my neck out here
but I'd say it's more a design fault with the mechanics of the engine (ie the small bearing surface, heat soak on high speed etc) It's like a different oil is going to give your engine some magical innoculation against dying. IMO it's the fault of the engine not the 40w oil instead of the 60w oil.
You don't see the Evo boys constantly debating what oil is best, and that's because they don't have a problem with their engine design.
The oil debate for me is just a way to shy away from the real problem with these cars!
Paul
02 February 2006, 11:30 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by Zen Performance
1. No. I am saying that we pay more for 5 litres of Millers 10w/40 than the dealer pays for 5 litres of Shell helix.
2. Because we wanted to simplify things. I have only had one person that wanted to use their own oil, and because we was nice and polite, we did just that. We feel we offer some of the best oils available, in a grade to suit the customer, if and when someone wants to use something different, we'll listen.
2. Your Servicing only shows 2 Oils, both Millers, one 10W/40 and the other a 10W/60 ............ maybe it's just me, but I don't consider that much of a choice??
Your website states that, "WE will NOT offer 'Oil Supplied by Customer' Servicing" .... that seems so clear cut that I am surprised that you do actually allow it 'because you are nice and polite' ... maybe you should remove that line from your Service Pricing? It rings of a dictatorship dealer IMHO .. just an observation.
Pete
03 February 2006, 12:08 AM
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Or maybe I have more important things to worry about right now, rather than constantly updating a servicing pricelist because of what some forum troll thinks.
What is your point about markup Pete? Are you saying that the high dealer markup means good oil? Or that good oil need not have a high markup? Because I can assure you that a dealer buying 205L drums of oil will not be paying very much at all. You don't need to be clever to know this, but it helps if you're in the trade and you have in interest in what prices you may or may not be paying for alternative products. Our markup is, I am sure LESS for what I consider to be a BETTER product. Customers have a choice, if they feel strongly enough about oil, they can talk to us, or go elsewhere.
Paul
What is your point about markup Pete? Are you saying that the high dealer markup means good oil? Or that good oil need not have a high markup? Because I can assure you that a dealer buying 205L drums of oil will not be paying very much at all. You don't need to be clever to know this, but it helps if you're in the trade and you have in interest in what prices you may or may not be paying for alternative products. Our markup is, I am sure LESS for what I consider to be a BETTER product. Customers have a choice, if they feel strongly enough about oil, they can talk to us, or go elsewhere.
Paul
03 February 2006, 12:15 AM
#46
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Originally Posted by Zen Performance
Or maybe I have more important things to worry about right now, rather than constantly updating a servicing pricelist because of what some forum troll thinks.
What is your point about markup Pete? Are you saying that the high dealer markup means good oil? Or that good oil need not have a high markup? Because I can assure you that a dealer buying 205L drums of oil will not be paying very much at all. You don't need to be clever to know this, but it helps if you're in the trade and you have in interest in what prices you may or may not be paying for alternative products. Our markup is, I am sure LESS for what I consider to be a BETTER product. Customers have a choice, if they feel strongly enough about oil, they can talk to us, or go elsewhere.
Paul
What is your point about markup Pete? Are you saying that the high dealer markup means good oil? Or that good oil need not have a high markup? Because I can assure you that a dealer buying 205L drums of oil will not be paying very much at all. You don't need to be clever to know this, but it helps if you're in the trade and you have in interest in what prices you may or may not be paying for alternative products. Our markup is, I am sure LESS for what I consider to be a BETTER product. Customers have a choice, if they feel strongly enough about oil, they can talk to us, or go elsewhere.
Paul
Mark-Ups ..... look back you will see that YOU mentioned mark-ups ... I have NO interest whatsoever in mark-ups (yours or anyone elses!)
You seem to be mad, I suggest you have a sleep and start again tomorrow? Telling Owners that they can fooook off if they don't like what Oil you tell them to use isn't too clever IMHO
Pete
03 February 2006, 12:43 AM
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I am telling owners no such thing, you are trying to put words into my mouth. I offer a product, they can choose to buy it or not, currently people seem to be choose TO buy. It is not unusual for specialists and dealers to only offer a single brand of oil. We have 7 different types of oil (same brand) on the shelf for various applications, I am happy with the oil we use, I have invested MY money to be able to do this.
Long and short of it is, I wouldn't put Comma oil in your subaru if you paid me, quite literally.
Paul
Long and short of it is, I wouldn't put Comma oil in your subaru if you paid me, quite literally.
Paul
Originally Posted by pslewis
Now, now, I suggest a change in your wording on your website and you get all shirtie??????
Mark-Ups ..... look back you will see that YOU mentioned mark-ups ... I have NO interest whatsoever in mark-ups (yours or anyone elses!)
You seem to be mad, I suggest you have a sleep and start again tomorrow? Telling Owners that they can fooook off if they don't like what Oil you tell them to use isn't too clever IMHO
Pete
Mark-Ups ..... look back you will see that YOU mentioned mark-ups ... I have NO interest whatsoever in mark-ups (yours or anyone elses!)
You seem to be mad, I suggest you have a sleep and start again tomorrow? Telling Owners that they can fooook off if they don't like what Oil you tell them to use isn't too clever IMHO
Pete
03 February 2006, 12:47 AM
#48
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I cant wait for the big conclusion for the oil debate
MY00 UK - 2 services with Mobil 1, 4 or so with Semi from dealer and run on Shell Helix 5w 40 for the past 3 years. 55k and still going
MY00 UK - 2 services with Mobil 1, 4 or so with Semi from dealer and run on Shell Helix 5w 40 for the past 3 years. 55k and still going
03 February 2006, 12:50 AM
#49
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I understand why you choose to offer the selection of oils you do (and thats your choice as a business) but dont you think youre shooting yourself in the foot by not letting people bring their own oil in for a service?
03 February 2006, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by 16vmarc
I understand why you choose to offer the selection of oils you do (and thats your choice as a business) but dont you think youre shooting yourself in the foot by not letting people bring their own oil in for a service?
03 February 2006, 08:32 AM
#51
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Originally Posted by Zen Performance
Long and short of it is, I wouldn't put Comma oil in your subaru if you paid me, quite literally.
Paul
Paul
However, I doubt you would work on my Subaru if I paid you TWICE as much
.... never get personal in business!Pete
Last edited by pslewis; 03 February 2006 at 08:39 AM.
03 February 2006, 08:38 AM
#52
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Originally Posted by Zen Performance
Or maybe I have more important things to worry about right now, rather than constantly updating a servicing pricelist because of what some forum troll thinks.
Paul
Paul
It was always meant as constructive critisism .. and you have acknowledged that.
So, a 'so called' Troll helps your business ...... I'm pleased. You have even spotted an error and corrected it due to this thread ...... you must be pleased.
I would not agree that most people who buy Oil do their own Oil change.
Pete
03 February 2006, 08:45 AM
#53
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Shell Helix 5/40 used for the last 3 years, oil and filter every 6 months, used in JDM St/b (not standard), no probs.
Price around £19 , I buy mine in France, all the supermarkets do all the major brand names, and guess what, they are cheaper. and then I get my friendly Subaru specialist (scoobytek) to use it.
As my old man told me and I (will) tell my son / daughter, warm you engines up before you thrash em, (and that doesnt include reving its guts out first thing in the morning, I pointed this out to next doors 17 year old only last week, his car came back on a flat bed last night, oh how I laughed) if you drive hard you have to change more often, and get to know your motor.
For what its worth
Price around £19 , I buy mine in France, all the supermarkets do all the major brand names, and guess what, they are cheaper. and then I get my friendly Subaru specialist (scoobytek) to use it.
As my old man told me and I (will) tell my son / daughter, warm you engines up before you thrash em, (and that doesnt include reving its guts out first thing in the morning, I pointed this out to next doors 17 year old only last week, his car came back on a flat bed last night, oh how I laughed) if you drive hard you have to change more often, and get to know your motor.
For what its worth
03 February 2006, 08:50 AM
#54
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Originally Posted by Nich B
Shell Helix 5/40 used for the last 3 years, oil and filter every 6 months, used in JDM St/b (not standard), no probs.
Price around £19 , I buy mine in France, all the supermarkets do all the major brand names, and guess what, they are cheaper. and then I get my friendly Subaru specialist (scoobytek) to use it.
As my old man told me and I (will) tell my son / daughter, warm you engines up before you thrash em, (and that doesnt include reving its guts out first thing in the morning, I pointed this out to next doors 17 year old only last week, his car came back on a flat bed last night, oh how I laughed) if you drive hard you have to change more often, and get to know your motor.
For what its worth
Price around £19 , I buy mine in France, all the supermarkets do all the major brand names, and guess what, they are cheaper. and then I get my friendly Subaru specialist (scoobytek) to use it.
As my old man told me and I (will) tell my son / daughter, warm you engines up before you thrash em, (and that doesnt include reving its guts out first thing in the morning, I pointed this out to next doors 17 year old only last week, his car came back on a flat bed last night, oh how I laughed) if you drive hard you have to change more often, and get to know your motor.
For what its worth
Not sure whether Zen Performance would put it in, even if you paid them to?
Change your Oil often and treat the car with sympathy and it will return years of trouble free service ........ Shell Helix in mine for 5 years, then switched to COMMA for the last service, will use it again at the next too!!
Pete
03 February 2006, 09:00 AM
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But if I lived closer to Zen it wouldnt stop me from using them because Im sure they are friendly people as well, and because I change oil and filter on a regular basis, it probably doesnt matter which brand either.
I just went for what I thought was the best, and gave the best value.
The only reason I use Shell was I did some reading made up my own mind and bought it cheaper, Scoobytek are quite happy using it, so am I.
We all make our own decisions, some people are swayed by others, some will listen to what has to be said and make there own mind up, at the end of the day................
Warm your engines up, dont thrash from cold, change on regular basis, know your motor.
for what its worth
I just went for what I thought was the best, and gave the best value.
The only reason I use Shell was I did some reading made up my own mind and bought it cheaper, Scoobytek are quite happy using it, so am I.
We all make our own decisions, some people are swayed by others, some will listen to what has to be said and make there own mind up, at the end of the day................
Warm your engines up, dont thrash from cold, change on regular basis, know your motor.
for what its worth
03 February 2006, 04:52 PM
#56
As it was raised here are the answers:
Motul 300V = Group IV and V
Silkolene PRO S = Group IV and V
Mobil1 = Group IV
Many synthetics are Group III (petroleum based) and semi-synthetics are a blend of Group II and III that's why it's called "semi".
This is what it all means:
Basestock categories and descriptions
All oils are comprised of basestocks and additives. Basestocks make up the majority of the finished product and represent between 75-95%.
Not all basestocks are derived from petroleum, in fact the better quality ones are synthetics made in laboratories by chemists specifically designed for the application for which they are intended.
Basestocks are classified in 5 Groups as follows:
Group I
These are derived from petroleum and are the least refined. These are used in a small amount of automotive oils where the applications are not demanding.
Group II
These are derived from petroleum and are mainly used in mineral automotive oils. Their performance is acceptable with regards to wear, thermal stability and oxidation stability but not so good at lower temperatures.
Group III
These are derived from petroleum but are the most refined of the mineral oil basestocks. They are not chemically engineered like synthetics but offer the highest level of performance of all the petroleum basestocks. They are also known as “hydrocracked” or “molecularly modified” basestocks.
They are usually labelled/marketed as synthetic or semi-synthetic oils and make up a very high percentage of the oils retailed today.
Group IV
These are polyalphaolefins known as PAO and are chemically manufactured rather than being dug out of the ground. These basestocks have excellent stability in both hot and cold temperatures and give superior protection due to their uniform molecules.
Group V
These special basestocks are also chemically engineered but are not PAO.
The main types used in automotive oils are diesters and polyolesters. Like the group IV basestocks they have uniform molecules and give superior performance and protection over petroleum basestocks. These special stocks are used in all aviation engines due to their stability and durability. Esters are also polar (electro statically attracted to metal surfaces) which has great benefits. They are usually blended with Group IV stocks rather than being used exclusively.
It is common practice for oil companies to blend different basestocks to achieve a certain specification, performance or cost. The blending of group IV and V produces lubricants with the best overall performance which cannot be matched by any of the petroleum basestock groups.
Cheers
Simon
Motul 300V = Group IV and V
Silkolene PRO S = Group IV and V
Mobil1 = Group IV
Many synthetics are Group III (petroleum based) and semi-synthetics are a blend of Group II and III that's why it's called "semi".
This is what it all means:
Basestock categories and descriptions
All oils are comprised of basestocks and additives. Basestocks make up the majority of the finished product and represent between 75-95%.
Not all basestocks are derived from petroleum, in fact the better quality ones are synthetics made in laboratories by chemists specifically designed for the application for which they are intended.
Basestocks are classified in 5 Groups as follows:
Group I
These are derived from petroleum and are the least refined. These are used in a small amount of automotive oils where the applications are not demanding.
Group II
These are derived from petroleum and are mainly used in mineral automotive oils. Their performance is acceptable with regards to wear, thermal stability and oxidation stability but not so good at lower temperatures.
Group III
These are derived from petroleum but are the most refined of the mineral oil basestocks. They are not chemically engineered like synthetics but offer the highest level of performance of all the petroleum basestocks. They are also known as “hydrocracked” or “molecularly modified” basestocks.
They are usually labelled/marketed as synthetic or semi-synthetic oils and make up a very high percentage of the oils retailed today.
Group IV
These are polyalphaolefins known as PAO and are chemically manufactured rather than being dug out of the ground. These basestocks have excellent stability in both hot and cold temperatures and give superior protection due to their uniform molecules.
Group V
These special basestocks are also chemically engineered but are not PAO.
The main types used in automotive oils are diesters and polyolesters. Like the group IV basestocks they have uniform molecules and give superior performance and protection over petroleum basestocks. These special stocks are used in all aviation engines due to their stability and durability. Esters are also polar (electro statically attracted to metal surfaces) which has great benefits. They are usually blended with Group IV stocks rather than being used exclusively.
It is common practice for oil companies to blend different basestocks to achieve a certain specification, performance or cost. The blending of group IV and V produces lubricants with the best overall performance which cannot be matched by any of the petroleum basestock groups.
Cheers
Simon
03 February 2006, 05:51 PM
#57
Scooby Regular
Interesting Stuff Here:-
http://sportrider.com/tech/146-0310-...r.add-zoom.gif
http://sportrider.com/tech/146-0310-...ntent-zoom.gif
http://sportrider.com/tech/146-0310-...utral-zoom.gif
http://sportrider.com/tech/146-0310-TotalBase-zoom.gif
http://sportrider.com/tech/146-0310-....petrol-zo.gif
http://sportrider.com/tech/146-0310-HeatAging-zoom.gif
http://sportrider.com/tech/146_0310_...y.new-zoom.gif
Its a bike site but they have tested the oils mentioned in their charts above
Pete
http://sportrider.com/tech/146-0310-...r.add-zoom.gif
http://sportrider.com/tech/146-0310-...ntent-zoom.gif
http://sportrider.com/tech/146-0310-...utral-zoom.gif
http://sportrider.com/tech/146-0310-TotalBase-zoom.gif
http://sportrider.com/tech/146-0310-....petrol-zo.gif
http://sportrider.com/tech/146-0310-HeatAging-zoom.gif
http://sportrider.com/tech/146_0310_...y.new-zoom.gif
Its a bike site but they have tested the oils mentioned in their charts above
Pete
03 February 2006, 06:00 PM
#58
Scooby Regular
What I found on the API Grouping of Basestocks:-
The API groups oils into five major categories, each with different properties and production methods:
Group I: Solvent frozen mineral oil. This is the least processed of all oils on the market today and is typically used in nonautomotive applications, though some of it may find its way into low-cost motor oils.
Group II: Hydro-processed and refined mineral oil. This is the most common of all petroleum oils and is the standard component of most petroleum-based automotive and motorcycle engine oils.
Group III (now called synthetic): The oils start as standard Group I oils and are processed to remove impurities, resulting in a more heat-stable compound than possible as a standard Group I or II oil. Some examples are Castrol Syntec automotive oil and Motorex Top Speed. These are the lowest cost synthetics to produce, and generally do not perform as well as Group IV or V oils.
Group IV: Polyalphaolefin, commonly called PAOs. These are the most common of the full synthetic oils, and usually offer big improvements in heat and overall stability when compared to Group III oils. They are produced in mass quantities and are reasonably inexpensive for full-synthetic oils. Since they are wax-free they offer high viscosity indexes (low temperature pour point) and often require little or no viscosity modifiers. Examples include Amsoil and Motorex Power Synt.
Group V: Esters. These oils start their life as plant or animal bases called fatty acids. They are then converted via a chemical reaction into esters or diesters which are then used as base stocks. Esters are polar, which means they act like a magnet and actually cling to metals. This supposedly offers much better protection on metal-to-metal surfaces than conventional PAOs, which do not have this polar effect. These base stock oils also act as a good solvent inside the engine, translating into cleaner operation. Esters are the most expensive to produce, and oils manufactured with them usually cost much more. Due to this higher cost, many companies only fortify their oils with esters. Some examples are Bel-Ray EXS, Torco MPZ Synthetic and Maxum 4 Extra. Motul 300V, however, uses 100 percent ester as its base oil, and is one of the more expensive oils.
The grouping of these oils is the source of much controversy.
One topic that has been debated is what can be labeled a "full synthetic oil." In 1999, Mobil brought a complaint against Castrol for changing the base oil in its Syntec product. They had used a Group IV PAO, but had changed to a Group III base oil.
Mobil contended that Group III oils were not really "synthetic oil" and should not be labeled as such. After many expert opinions were heard, the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau sided with Castrol and said that Group III oils could be labeled synthetic.
Since that time there has been a lot of growth in this product type due to its low cost and similar performance to traditional synthetics.
Many traditionalists still argue that Group III oils are not true synthetic oils.
Pete
The API groups oils into five major categories, each with different properties and production methods:
Group I: Solvent frozen mineral oil. This is the least processed of all oils on the market today and is typically used in nonautomotive applications, though some of it may find its way into low-cost motor oils.
Group II: Hydro-processed and refined mineral oil. This is the most common of all petroleum oils and is the standard component of most petroleum-based automotive and motorcycle engine oils.
Group III (now called synthetic): The oils start as standard Group I oils and are processed to remove impurities, resulting in a more heat-stable compound than possible as a standard Group I or II oil. Some examples are Castrol Syntec automotive oil and Motorex Top Speed. These are the lowest cost synthetics to produce, and generally do not perform as well as Group IV or V oils.
Group IV: Polyalphaolefin, commonly called PAOs. These are the most common of the full synthetic oils, and usually offer big improvements in heat and overall stability when compared to Group III oils. They are produced in mass quantities and are reasonably inexpensive for full-synthetic oils. Since they are wax-free they offer high viscosity indexes (low temperature pour point) and often require little or no viscosity modifiers. Examples include Amsoil and Motorex Power Synt.
Group V: Esters. These oils start their life as plant or animal bases called fatty acids. They are then converted via a chemical reaction into esters or diesters which are then used as base stocks. Esters are polar, which means they act like a magnet and actually cling to metals. This supposedly offers much better protection on metal-to-metal surfaces than conventional PAOs, which do not have this polar effect. These base stock oils also act as a good solvent inside the engine, translating into cleaner operation. Esters are the most expensive to produce, and oils manufactured with them usually cost much more. Due to this higher cost, many companies only fortify their oils with esters. Some examples are Bel-Ray EXS, Torco MPZ Synthetic and Maxum 4 Extra. Motul 300V, however, uses 100 percent ester as its base oil, and is one of the more expensive oils.
The grouping of these oils is the source of much controversy.
One topic that has been debated is what can be labeled a "full synthetic oil." In 1999, Mobil brought a complaint against Castrol for changing the base oil in its Syntec product. They had used a Group IV PAO, but had changed to a Group III base oil.
Mobil contended that Group III oils were not really "synthetic oil" and should not be labeled as such. After many expert opinions were heard, the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau sided with Castrol and said that Group III oils could be labeled synthetic.
Since that time there has been a lot of growth in this product type due to its low cost and similar performance to traditional synthetics.
Many traditionalists still argue that Group III oils are not true synthetic oils.
Pete
03 February 2006, 06:09 PM
#59
Excellent Pete, I cannot disagree with you and totally concurs with what I have been saying all along and stated a couple of posts up.
Like I always say "you get what you pay for".
Esters and pao's are complicated as there are many different types and configurations but in simple terms, the benefits they bring are as follows:
Esters (Group V)
All jet engines are lubricated with synthetic esters, and have been for 50 years, but these expensive fluids only started to appear in petrol engine oils about 20 years ago. Thanks to their aviation origins, the types suitable for lubricants (esters also appear in perfumes; they are different!) work well from –50 degC to 200 degC, and they have a useful extra trick.
Due to their structure, ester molecules are “polar”; they stick to metal surfaces using electrostatic forces. This means that a protective layer is there at all times, even during that crucial start-up period. This helps to protect cams, gears, piston rings and valve train components, where lubrication is “boundary” rather than “hydrodynamic”, i.e. a very thin non-pressure fed film has to hold the surface apart. Even crank bearings benefit at starts, stops or when extreme shock loads upset the “hydrodynamic” film.
Synthetic Hydrocarbons or POA’s (Poly Alpha Olefins Group V)
These are, in effect, very precisely made equivalents to the most desirable mineral oil molecules. As with esters, they work very well at low temperatures, and equally well when the heat is on, if protected by anti-oxidants. The difference is, they are inert, and not polar. In fact, on their own they are hopeless “boundary” lubricants, with LESS load carrying ability than a mineral oil. They depend entirely on the correct chemical enhancements.
PAO’s work best in combination with esters. The esters assist load carrying, reduce friction, and cut down seal drag and wear, whilst the PAO’s act as solvents for the multigrade polymers and a large assortment of special compounds that act as dispersants, detergents, anti-wear and oxidant agents, and foam suppressants. Both are very good at resisting high-temperature evaporation, and the esters in particular will never carbonise in turbo bearings even when provoked by anti-lag systems.
I guess by the way it's written and the reference oil that you found that on a US site?
Cheers
Simon
Like I always say "you get what you pay for".
Esters and pao's are complicated as there are many different types and configurations but in simple terms, the benefits they bring are as follows:
Esters (Group V)
All jet engines are lubricated with synthetic esters, and have been for 50 years, but these expensive fluids only started to appear in petrol engine oils about 20 years ago. Thanks to their aviation origins, the types suitable for lubricants (esters also appear in perfumes; they are different!) work well from –50 degC to 200 degC, and they have a useful extra trick.
Due to their structure, ester molecules are “polar”; they stick to metal surfaces using electrostatic forces. This means that a protective layer is there at all times, even during that crucial start-up period. This helps to protect cams, gears, piston rings and valve train components, where lubrication is “boundary” rather than “hydrodynamic”, i.e. a very thin non-pressure fed film has to hold the surface apart. Even crank bearings benefit at starts, stops or when extreme shock loads upset the “hydrodynamic” film.
Synthetic Hydrocarbons or POA’s (Poly Alpha Olefins Group V)
These are, in effect, very precisely made equivalents to the most desirable mineral oil molecules. As with esters, they work very well at low temperatures, and equally well when the heat is on, if protected by anti-oxidants. The difference is, they are inert, and not polar. In fact, on their own they are hopeless “boundary” lubricants, with LESS load carrying ability than a mineral oil. They depend entirely on the correct chemical enhancements.
PAO’s work best in combination with esters. The esters assist load carrying, reduce friction, and cut down seal drag and wear, whilst the PAO’s act as solvents for the multigrade polymers and a large assortment of special compounds that act as dispersants, detergents, anti-wear and oxidant agents, and foam suppressants. Both are very good at resisting high-temperature evaporation, and the esters in particular will never carbonise in turbo bearings even when provoked by anti-lag systems.
I guess by the way it's written and the reference oil that you found that on a US site?
Cheers
Simon
03 February 2006, 06:54 PM
#60
Scooby Regular
Originally Posted by oilman
Excellent Pete, I cannot disagree with you and totally concurs with what I have been saying all along and stated a couple of posts up.
Like I always say "you get what you pay for".
Cheers
Simon
Like I always say "you get what you pay for".
Cheers
Simon
I do NOT agree with "you get what you pay for" ..... there is value and there is expensive.
And thats what makes me disagree with you, the suggestion by you is that the Oil I use, at £15 for 5 Litres, is rubbish .......................... when it isn't.
It's a damned fine oil and is the same spec that Subaru Recommend - it does what it says on the tin and will protect my engine just as well as an oil costling 3 times as much.
£45 oil may offer 'more' of something - but, I might not want that 'more' whatever it is ................ I don't buy anything I don't need, want or use.
However, the facts we can agree on ................... we can never agree whether expensive oil is worth the premium - you think it is, obviously ... and I don't.
But I will always fight the corner if you ever suggest that COMMA Oil is crap and shouldn't be used in a standard Impreza
You wouldn't expect any less of me, surely?
Pete