Danes upset Islam bigtime
05 February 2006, 08:18 PM
#271
Originally Posted by **************
that just about sums it up for me. Hypocrites doesn't even come close. And as for the banners saying kill those who insult Islam well I think that makes the cartoons not far from the truth then. Burning the embassies just highlights the extreme intollerance of other cultures by Islamic states. Perhaps they should have some of that intolerance rammed back down their throats by the way of International embargos.I like the way the word minority is used all the time. Not if you take a look at certain nations, for example Syria and Lebanon. I don't think you can claim that the protests there were a minority of their Muslim population
The reactions across the world have done nothing but harm the image of Islam and make it look like a religion of violence and death threats, bit like the days of Salman Rushdie and the fatwas against him.Those that protested with such threatening banners over the last few days should have been arrested but because of the so over the top PC culture this country is now falling under they were left to get away with it - pathetic!
05 February 2006, 08:24 PM
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Those Muslim placards and the hatred in their eyes was truely shocking. The government welcomes them to this country provides benefits and free medical services but they still behave like that - not to mention bombings, beheadings, murdering thousands of innocent people on 9/11, burning embassies. I don't think the silent civilised majority will put up with this for much longer.
05 February 2006, 08:46 PM
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Still, how many poeple have you seen burning Korans and giving muslims death threats?
05 February 2006, 08:57 PM
#274
'its dam tempting'
Until you get your head hacked off for it !
Dont p1ss them off for the sake of it, and remember it isnt all Muslims, its a few nutters but it is bad for your average Muslim as your average punter now just sees it as Islam=Bad, not the best publicity campaign really is it ?
Until you get your head hacked off for it !
Dont p1ss them off for the sake of it, and remember it isnt all Muslims, its a few nutters but it is bad for your average Muslim as your average punter now just sees it as Islam=Bad, not the best publicity campaign really is it ?
05 February 2006, 09:02 PM
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I posted this on the other thread before (obviously) it got locked. It's relevent here and there's too much to retype, so sorry if it's bad manners or poor netiquette but I'm copying it here.
Background first. I'm married to a Christian Arab, I am a white christian Englishman. I'm ex forces and politically would consider myself a liberal conservative. So right of centre but not by very far.
I am really struggling to get my head around the fact that any religious, political or social group can be allowed to hold protests of the type we have seen over the last couple of days in this democracy (I know, I'm stretching a point there) and not be called to account. We've just seen the BNP being prosecuted on far flimsier grounds, yet other groups appear immune to prosecution. My opening statement, giving my ethnic and political position is sufficient to condemn me as 'racist' in some circles, yet anyone else, including even Scots, Welsh and Irish, can proudly proclaim their nationality from the rooftops with impunity.
And why the Hell not? Being proud of one's nationality does not make one a racist. That's an entirely different creature, relying on a belief in racial superiority rather than national pride.
But I digress.
Moderate Muslims assert that anyone who advocates violence in the name of Islam is not a Muslim. That's reassuring to hear. Or it would be if it was heard louder. If those moderates who claim that the angry voices in the street do not represent their faith got off their backsides and shouted those extremists down.
Because folks, it isn't us you need to tell. You need to tell your Imams and Mullahs that they aren't representing the Koran, the will of God or the teachings of the Prophet. You need to tell them that they aren't representative of what you all feel and believe. Because until you do, and until they change their tune then we simply won't believe you. How could we?
I'd love to deny that the West has done anything to provoke resentment in the Arab world. But I can't. History is riddled with, at best, poor judgement and at worst simple dishonesty, double standards and blatant profiteering when it comes to our dealings with Arab nations.
BUT.
We have opened our doors and provided shelter from some of the most oppressive regimes in the world. And those people who have accepted our protection and our hospitality ought to show the proper appreciation. They have come to live in Great Britain - a non secular, predominantly Christian democracy. And they should accept us for that, not try to convert us to an Islamic Republic.
The British have a long history of being gracious hosts. But I truly believe that if our guests continue to behave in the way we are currently seeing then Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech may yet be proven accurate. Because we may be tolerant but we have a limit. And I'd say that limit is rapidly being approached.
So to all good Muslims reading this I say this. Put your house in order and remember your obligations as either guests in this country or British citizens, before sufficient damage is done that all the good, caring, hardworking moderates get consumed by the fallout.
SB
Background first. I'm married to a Christian Arab, I am a white christian Englishman. I'm ex forces and politically would consider myself a liberal conservative. So right of centre but not by very far.
I am really struggling to get my head around the fact that any religious, political or social group can be allowed to hold protests of the type we have seen over the last couple of days in this democracy (I know, I'm stretching a point there) and not be called to account. We've just seen the BNP being prosecuted on far flimsier grounds, yet other groups appear immune to prosecution. My opening statement, giving my ethnic and political position is sufficient to condemn me as 'racist' in some circles, yet anyone else, including even Scots, Welsh and Irish, can proudly proclaim their nationality from the rooftops with impunity.
And why the Hell not? Being proud of one's nationality does not make one a racist. That's an entirely different creature, relying on a belief in racial superiority rather than national pride.
But I digress.
Moderate Muslims assert that anyone who advocates violence in the name of Islam is not a Muslim. That's reassuring to hear. Or it would be if it was heard louder. If those moderates who claim that the angry voices in the street do not represent their faith got off their backsides and shouted those extremists down.
Because folks, it isn't us you need to tell. You need to tell your Imams and Mullahs that they aren't representing the Koran, the will of God or the teachings of the Prophet. You need to tell them that they aren't representative of what you all feel and believe. Because until you do, and until they change their tune then we simply won't believe you. How could we?
I'd love to deny that the West has done anything to provoke resentment in the Arab world. But I can't. History is riddled with, at best, poor judgement and at worst simple dishonesty, double standards and blatant profiteering when it comes to our dealings with Arab nations.
BUT.
We have opened our doors and provided shelter from some of the most oppressive regimes in the world. And those people who have accepted our protection and our hospitality ought to show the proper appreciation. They have come to live in Great Britain - a non secular, predominantly Christian democracy. And they should accept us for that, not try to convert us to an Islamic Republic.
The British have a long history of being gracious hosts. But I truly believe that if our guests continue to behave in the way we are currently seeing then Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech may yet be proven accurate. Because we may be tolerant but we have a limit. And I'd say that limit is rapidly being approached.
So to all good Muslims reading this I say this. Put your house in order and remember your obligations as either guests in this country or British citizens, before sufficient damage is done that all the good, caring, hardworking moderates get consumed by the fallout.
SB
05 February 2006, 09:18 PM
#276
What's confusing me is, the cartoon of the Prophet with the Bomb as a hat, if Muslims are saying that nobody can draw a picture of him, how do they know its him as there are no pictures and it doesnt say anywhere on it I can see, or does the Arabic writing on the bomb say who it's meant to be ?
I am also interested why Muslims cant draw pictures of him, usually religous Icons are drawn all over the place, not that it matters as I dont suppose that the rule will be changed. Thats one thing about religion that puzzles me as well, it was all put down a couple of thousand years ago and never gets changed, cant think of another facet of human existence that doesnt evolve at all, not just Islam, all the religions do this.
I am also interested why Muslims cant draw pictures of him, usually religous Icons are drawn all over the place, not that it matters as I dont suppose that the rule will be changed. Thats one thing about religion that puzzles me as well, it was all put down a couple of thousand years ago and never gets changed, cant think of another facet of human existence that doesnt evolve at all, not just Islam, all the religions do this.
05 February 2006, 10:49 PM
#277
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Originally Posted by Sbradley
Moderate Muslims assert that anyone who advocates violence in the name of Islam is not a Muslim. That's reassuring to hear. Or it would be if it was heard louder. If those moderates who claim that the angry voices in the street do not represent their faith got off their backsides and shouted those extremists down.
05 February 2006, 10:58 PM
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That's a fair point. Although if, as is claimed, the hotheads are such a small minority, surely the majority wouldn't have to shout very loudly to drown them out?
SB
SB
05 February 2006, 11:04 PM
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You didn't hear me say it was a small minority... but even if it were, I think it's wrong to consider the "majority" as a coherent "group" who can speak with one voice.
However, I'll state again that the "minority" argument doesn't wash IMHO. Not in this case. Had so many arguments about this I can never ever look at a Dane or a cartoon again
However, I'll state again that the "minority" argument doesn't wash IMHO. Not in this case. Had so many arguments about this I can never ever look at a Dane or a cartoon again
05 February 2006, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by RedFive
You didn't hear me say it was a small minority... but even if it were, I think it's wrong to consider the "majority" as a coherent "group" who can speak with one voice.
Originally Posted by RedFive
However, I'll state again that the "minority" argument doesn't wash IMHO. Not in this case. Had so many arguments about this I can never ever look at a Dane or a cartoon again
So I think you're probably right there, too.
Damn, Theo - this is getting to be a habit!
SB
06 February 2006, 02:26 AM
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I'm somewhat shocked that a few cartoons are causing such an uproar. I don't think you'd see anything like this if a Dane drew cartoons of Jesus in such a way. OK a few bible bashers might be a bit upset, but burning down embassies, I don't think so.
I know that not all muslims are like this, however, it does not help the good ones when you've got the nutjobs running around like anarchists.
I know that not all muslims are like this, however, it does not help the good ones when you've got the nutjobs running around like anarchists.
06 February 2006, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Sbradley
We have opened our doors and provided shelter from some of the most oppressive regimes in the world. And those people who have accepted our protection and our hospitality ought to show the proper appreciation. They have come to live in Great Britain - a non secular, predominantly Christian democracy. And they should accept us for that, not try to convert us to an Islamic Republic.
SB
06 February 2006, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Sbradley
I posted this on the other thread before (obviously) it got locked. It's relevent here and there's too much to retype, so sorry if it's bad manners or poor netiquette but I'm copying it here.
Background first. I'm married to a Christian Arab, I am a white christian Englishman. I'm ex forces and politically would consider myself a liberal conservative. So right of centre but not by very far.
I am really struggling to get my head around the fact that any religious, political or social group can be allowed to hold protests of the type we have seen over the last couple of days in this democracy (I know, I'm stretching a point there) and not be called to account. We've just seen the BNP being prosecuted on far flimsier grounds, yet other groups appear immune to prosecution. My opening statement, giving my ethnic and political position is sufficient to condemn me as 'racist' in some circles, yet anyone else, including even Scots, Welsh and Irish, can proudly proclaim their nationality from the rooftops with impunity.
And why the Hell not? Being proud of one's nationality does not make one a racist. That's an entirely different creature, relying on a belief in racial superiority rather than national pride.
But I digress.
Moderate Muslims assert that anyone who advocates violence in the name of Islam is not a Muslim. That's reassuring to hear. Or it would be if it was heard louder. If those moderates who claim that the angry voices in the street do not represent their faith got off their backsides and shouted those extremists down.
Because folks, it isn't us you need to tell. You need to tell your Imams and Mullahs that they aren't representing the Koran, the will of God or the teachings of the Prophet. You need to tell them that they aren't representative of what you all feel and believe. Because until you do, and until they change their tune then we simply won't believe you. How could we?
I'd love to deny that the West has done anything to provoke resentment in the Arab world. But I can't. History is riddled with, at best, poor judgement and at worst simple dishonesty, double standards and blatant profiteering when it comes to our dealings with Arab nations.
BUT.
We have opened our doors and provided shelter from some of the most oppressive regimes in the world. And those people who have accepted our protection and our hospitality ought to show the proper appreciation. They have come to live in Great Britain - a non secular, predominantly Christian democracy. And they should accept us for that, not try to convert us to an Islamic Republic.
The British have a long history of being gracious hosts. But I truly believe that if our guests continue to behave in the way we are currently seeing then Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech may yet be proven accurate. Because we may be tolerant but we have a limit. And I'd say that limit is rapidly being approached.
So to all good Muslims reading this I say this. Put your house in order and remember your obligations as either guests in this country or British citizens, before sufficient damage is done that all the good, caring, hardworking moderates get consumed by the fallout.
SB
Background first. I'm married to a Christian Arab, I am a white christian Englishman. I'm ex forces and politically would consider myself a liberal conservative. So right of centre but not by very far.
I am really struggling to get my head around the fact that any religious, political or social group can be allowed to hold protests of the type we have seen over the last couple of days in this democracy (I know, I'm stretching a point there) and not be called to account. We've just seen the BNP being prosecuted on far flimsier grounds, yet other groups appear immune to prosecution. My opening statement, giving my ethnic and political position is sufficient to condemn me as 'racist' in some circles, yet anyone else, including even Scots, Welsh and Irish, can proudly proclaim their nationality from the rooftops with impunity.
And why the Hell not? Being proud of one's nationality does not make one a racist. That's an entirely different creature, relying on a belief in racial superiority rather than national pride.
But I digress.
Moderate Muslims assert that anyone who advocates violence in the name of Islam is not a Muslim. That's reassuring to hear. Or it would be if it was heard louder. If those moderates who claim that the angry voices in the street do not represent their faith got off their backsides and shouted those extremists down.
Because folks, it isn't us you need to tell. You need to tell your Imams and Mullahs that they aren't representing the Koran, the will of God or the teachings of the Prophet. You need to tell them that they aren't representative of what you all feel and believe. Because until you do, and until they change their tune then we simply won't believe you. How could we?
I'd love to deny that the West has done anything to provoke resentment in the Arab world. But I can't. History is riddled with, at best, poor judgement and at worst simple dishonesty, double standards and blatant profiteering when it comes to our dealings with Arab nations.
BUT.
We have opened our doors and provided shelter from some of the most oppressive regimes in the world. And those people who have accepted our protection and our hospitality ought to show the proper appreciation. They have come to live in Great Britain - a non secular, predominantly Christian democracy. And they should accept us for that, not try to convert us to an Islamic Republic.
The British have a long history of being gracious hosts. But I truly believe that if our guests continue to behave in the way we are currently seeing then Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech may yet be proven accurate. Because we may be tolerant but we have a limit. And I'd say that limit is rapidly being approached.
So to all good Muslims reading this I say this. Put your house in order and remember your obligations as either guests in this country or British citizens, before sufficient damage is done that all the good, caring, hardworking moderates get consumed by the fallout.
SB
Although I'm beginning to think more and more that the "minority" has, if not support, then at least convenient apathy from the majority.
It has been touched on earlier in this thread, and I think it needs saying again.
If I walked down the street with a group of mates calling for death to all Muslims who refused to accept and respect Christianity I would be put in jail. No matter how peaceful my demonstration was. It is unlikely I would get more than a few minutes into my peaceful demonstration before being removed from the public eye, probably with extreme force.
And yet, were I a Muslim, in a large and angry mob, I could do just that with impuinity.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the root of many of the issues in the uk at least.
If the appropriate authorities properly and efficiently dealt with the extremeists, the decent majority would not then have to.
And if, as we hear, the decent majority of Muslims in the UK are so against that kind of extreme behaviour, I am sure those Muslim leaders would back such actions wholehartedly and more importantly publicly, thus ensuring there would be no backlash.
06 February 2006, 08:55 AM
#285
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Simon, I'll say say something controversial & unacceptable in a minute, in order to avoid all that agreeing 
The example you give about the lady professor is exactly what I was experiencing myself. Minority, majority, shmalority... it is the "moderate" people's reaction that puzzles me the most. Well, more than puzzles, it frightens me.
Oh well, in the mean time we have the first death (a protester), and tension in Libanon between muslims & christians seems to be growing like in 1975
I'm going for a coffee and shake my head at the world and think happy thoughts.
The example you give about the lady professor is exactly what I was experiencing myself. Minority, majority, shmalority... it is the "moderate" people's reaction that puzzles me the most. Well, more than puzzles, it frightens me.
Oh well, in the mean time we have the first death (a protester), and tension in Libanon between muslims & christians seems to be growing like in 1975
I'm going for a coffee and shake my head at the world and think happy thoughts.
06 February 2006, 09:34 AM
#286
Originally Posted by Sbradley
Moderate Muslims assert that anyone who advocates violence in the name of Islam is not a Muslim. That's reassuring to hear. Or it would be if it was heard louder. If those moderates who claim that the angry voices in the street do not represent their faith got off their backsides and shouted those extremists down.
Their response is almost always scripted too.
06 February 2006, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by KiwiGTI
Steve
06 February 2006, 10:05 AM
#288
Why suddenly a lot of fuss over cartoons first published 6 months ago?
Any coincidence that it comes when the only other big news is that 'Islamic' Iran is to be reported to UN security council?
Why do i get the feeling im being 'shown' what im supposed to see? ...a bunch of agitated religious extremists ...whose religion forms the backbone of a certain state intent on getting its 'finger on the button'?
All depends on whether you believe Goverments have the ability to not only 'bury' a news items, but also highlight them??? ...but i wouldn't bet against seeing troops sent into Iran within the next few years ...& it to receive public backing!
Any coincidence that it comes when the only other big news is that 'Islamic' Iran is to be reported to UN security council?
Why do i get the feeling im being 'shown' what im supposed to see? ...a bunch of agitated religious extremists ...whose religion forms the backbone of a certain state intent on getting its 'finger on the button'?
All depends on whether you believe Goverments have the ability to not only 'bury' a news items, but also highlight them??? ...but i wouldn't bet against seeing troops sent into Iran within the next few years ...& it to receive public backing!
Last edited by DazW; 06 February 2006 at 11:23 AM.
06 February 2006, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by banny sti
Yup in the same way you will not find a vegan in a famine, you won't find an atheist in a lion's den!
Regards Maz
Regards Maz
06 February 2006, 10:20 AM
#290
Originally Posted by DazW
Why suddenly a lot of fuss over cartoons first published 6 months ago?
Any coincidence that it comes when the only other big news is that the 'Islamic' Iran is to be reported to UN security council?
Why do i get the feeling im being 'shown' what im supposed to see? ...a bunch of agitated religious extremists ...whose religion forms the backbone of a certain state intent on getting its 'finger on the button'?
All depends on whether you beleive Goverments have the ability to not only 'bury' a news items, but also highlight them??? ...but i wouldn't bet against seeing troops sent into Iran within the next few years ...& it to recieve public backing!
Any coincidence that it comes when the only other big news is that the 'Islamic' Iran is to be reported to UN security council?
Why do i get the feeling im being 'shown' what im supposed to see? ...a bunch of agitated religious extremists ...whose religion forms the backbone of a certain state intent on getting its 'finger on the button'?
All depends on whether you beleive Goverments have the ability to not only 'bury' a news items, but also highlight them??? ...but i wouldn't bet against seeing troops sent into Iran within the next few years ...& it to recieve public backing!
Anyone KNOW why it's blown up now, and not then? And I mean KNOW categorically, not just what they heard a mate told down the pub
Alcazar
06 February 2006, 10:24 AM
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No specific reason - just an upswell of protest that has gone hand in hand with other countries like Norway re-printing them etc. Just the time it's taken for the word of mouth process to take hold...
06 February 2006, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by alcazar
Interesting point.
Anyone KNOW why it's blown up now, and not then? And I mean KNOW categorically, not just what they heard a mate told down the pub
Alcazar
Anyone KNOW why it's blown up now, and not then? And I mean KNOW categorically, not just what they heard a mate told down the pub
Alcazar
06 February 2006, 10:54 AM
#293
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Originally Posted by Mr Scoob
Those Muslim placards and the hatred in their eyes was truely shocking. The government welcomes them to this country provides benefits and free medical services but they still behave like that - not to mention bombings, beheadings, murdering thousands of innocent people on 9/11, burning embassies. I don't think the silent civilised majority will put up with this for much longer.
Anyone preaching hatred should be punished, and if not born here, then deported. Mosques preaching hatred should be shut down. People should respect the laws of this country if they want to remain here.
Religion has no place in modern Britain IMO - its just an out-dated way of thinking, and only has a place in history. Why should we move society back to middle-ages style thinking?
I feel this whole uproar about the cartoons just seems to be an excuse for these people to vent their hatred against the "evil western infidels". Its about time we started to stand up to them
06 February 2006, 11:10 AM
#294
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Britain isn't a Muslim country, at the end of the day.
It's just that time, history and political correctness have made it impossible to say that.
It's just that time, history and political correctness have made it impossible to say that.
06 February 2006, 11:16 AM
#295
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One thing we should not do is to underestimate the strength of the fundamentalist militants who are at the heart of the protests and will milk it for what they can get out of it.
Giving them the excuse to do it is the most stupid mistake, they have the opportunity to strengthen their organisation and recruit more young impressionable Muslims as well.
It also gives our own authorities the excuse to further reduce our personal freedoms.
Its just not worth it!
Les
Giving them the excuse to do it is the most stupid mistake, they have the opportunity to strengthen their organisation and recruit more young impressionable Muslims as well.
It also gives our own authorities the excuse to further reduce our personal freedoms.
Its just not worth it!
Les
06 February 2006, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Petem95
The government should get tough,
They only get tough on taxpaying honest people.
06 February 2006, 11:33 AM
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worth observing: these cartoons actually appeared in denmark in september 2005.
it is now february 2006. this is clearly a campaign planned and co-ordinated internationally by islam's terror tendency and not a spontaneous outpouring of anger by a 'wronged' religious group.
what does that tell you? again, it indicates mainstream islam's inability to administer itself and control violent and endemic militancy. and also indicates that this is just another firefight in the fundamentalists' self-declared war on the west - ie on us.
that demonstration was a disgrace and a clear breach of incitement laws. the non-reaction by the police, charles clarke and jack straw is also a disgrace and a clear display of the craven, appeasing, feeble and terrified minds that now inhabit scotland yard and whitehall. and notice how blair once more goes curiously quiet when tough situations arise ... leadership, my ****.
it's one law for an 80-year old heckler at the labour conference and a single female protester reading out the list of iraq war dead at the cenotaph (arrest) and it's one law for a baying mob of muslim extremists inciting the butchering and beheading of the infidel (blind eye). the moral? wear a kefiyeh and you're untouchable.
when is someone going to point out that the emperor has no clothes and put our governmental cretins on the spot? and when is sir iqbal socranie going to grab elements of his flock by the scruff of the neck? the more i think about it, the more i think it's high time he really earned his knighthood. and some respect.
it is now february 2006. this is clearly a campaign planned and co-ordinated internationally by islam's terror tendency and not a spontaneous outpouring of anger by a 'wronged' religious group.
what does that tell you? again, it indicates mainstream islam's inability to administer itself and control violent and endemic militancy. and also indicates that this is just another firefight in the fundamentalists' self-declared war on the west - ie on us.
that demonstration was a disgrace and a clear breach of incitement laws. the non-reaction by the police, charles clarke and jack straw is also a disgrace and a clear display of the craven, appeasing, feeble and terrified minds that now inhabit scotland yard and whitehall. and notice how blair once more goes curiously quiet when tough situations arise ... leadership, my ****.
it's one law for an 80-year old heckler at the labour conference and a single female protester reading out the list of iraq war dead at the cenotaph (arrest) and it's one law for a baying mob of muslim extremists inciting the butchering and beheading of the infidel (blind eye). the moral? wear a kefiyeh and you're untouchable.
when is someone going to point out that the emperor has no clothes and put our governmental cretins on the spot? and when is sir iqbal socranie going to grab elements of his flock by the scruff of the neck? the more i think about it, the more i think it's high time he really earned his knighthood. and some respect.
Last edited by Holy Ghost; 06 February 2006 at 11:41 AM.
06 February 2006, 11:34 AM
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I think Sbradley ... sums up my feelings well.
These people have accepted this country's hand of kindness...whether 1st, 2nd, 3rd or whatever generation.
Just like kids, the more you give them, the more they'll take and want - the less they appreciate you for it. (but not all kids are the same - just most of them)
maybe, the government should remove their priviledges...
These people have accepted this country's hand of kindness...whether 1st, 2nd, 3rd or whatever generation.
Just like kids, the more you give them, the more they'll take and want - the less they appreciate you for it. (but not all kids are the same - just most of them)
maybe, the government should remove their priviledges...
06 February 2006, 12:17 PM
#300
Originally Posted by Holy Ghost
sorry DazW - you'd already pointed out the bleeding obvious about timing ...