Mapping on Road vs Rollers - Which Better?
02 February 2006, 11:26 PM
#91
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Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
Well well thats drawn teeth !!
Conrad you use your methods ... I have mine and they seem to work, I'll happily debate what's a load of old bollocks when we finally meet, meantime I suggest you stick to what you know not what you think you know, holding load points stationary on the dyno is exactly why you shouldn't use it to set a map in stone.
Conrad you use your methods ... I have mine and they seem to work, I'll happily debate what's a load of old bollocks when we finally meet, meantime I suggest you stick to what you know not what you think you know, holding load points stationary on the dyno is exactly why you shouldn't use it to set a map in stone.
Talking bollocks was referring to a ridiculous part of your post saying "dynos are only good for mapping full throttle runs" and " part throttle mapping.....cant be done" No personal axe to grind but you need foundations to base such statements on which in terms of Dyno Dynamics rolling roads is not true.
Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
Your condescension does nothing more than demonstrate what a blinkered approach you have ... my post wasn't even specific to you either, whats up short of business ?
Not short of business thankyou, Not sure what that has to do with the subject in discussion but you do sound like another "road mapper" who asked me the same question earlier, obviously cant make a sensible reply on the topic on question so I'll suggest he's not busy, very professional
Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
You have been sooo quick to bite back at me you must have something to hide ... lol.
Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
As for factory tuning, if it was that good what are we all doing ?
Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
Aftermarket management is relatively easy to deal with, as Paul states remapping the factory management is something else.
IMHO, there will always be multiple ways to "skin a cat" metaphorically speaking, if we all did things the same way then there would be nothing to debate, so if one way works for you then use that if its the other then go with that but either way its sometimes a good idea to try the other methods and get the results for yourself.
cheers
Conrad ( doesnt lean back and wait, got to go and build my engine
)
03 February 2006, 12:14 AM
#94
Paul: Don't you mean, same crap, different day?
Can someone who thinks you can map totally without a retrim of the map on the road explain to me how you can tailor the RR map for differences in running to cater for differences in air flow and temperatures on the road and what about accelleration throttle enrichment for instance ?
Despite the first paragraph above I actually find this thread thought provoking, as a junior mapper but it shows up very significant differences and from the outside looking in I would tend to go with the limited number of mappers with long term proven engine life and reliability with substantial power gains / driveability.
Can someone who thinks you can map totally without a retrim of the map on the road explain to me how you can tailor the RR map for differences in running to cater for differences in air flow and temperatures on the road and what about accelleration throttle enrichment for instance ?
Despite the first paragraph above I actually find this thread thought provoking, as a junior mapper but it shows up very significant differences and from the outside looking in I would tend to go with the limited number of mappers with long term proven engine life and reliability with substantial power gains / driveability.
04 February 2006, 07:25 PM
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Can someone who thinks you can map totally without a retrim of the map on the road explain to me how you can tailor the RR map for differences in running to cater for differences in air flow and temperatures on the road and what about accelleration throttle enrichment for instance ?
As I said a few pages back, I prefer to do my base map and 'shakedown runs' if thats what you wanna call them on a dyno, then map with race fuel and check everything else out on the road..
Boost control is more fun on the road
David
04 February 2006, 07:29 PM
#97
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Andy ... yes which is why I always map open loop. But on boost it only adds and subracts fuel according to what the advance multiplier is doing.
I'm having fun deriving base maps for the Leggy's, makes a pleasant change.
User tune is very limited as you say although I do like the launch control feature, the only one I use is the twin scroll 03 code. twin maps is a bit sort of not quite though, boost maps yes but thats about all.
Paul agreed, Conrad clearly feels the need, sniping seems to be his speciality.
Conrad, got fed up with leaning back and went and mapped some cars, engines are mechanical, mapping takes 3D thinking which is much more stimulating.
banny sti this is just normal stuff for some here, you can't have a decent and considered tech discussion on this BBS without someone jumping in with size 10's flapping thinking he is going to use it as free advertising.
Damn should have logged in as BR Developments then my Authorised Advertise badge would be showing.
cheers
bob
I'm having fun deriving base maps for the Leggy's, makes a pleasant change.
User tune is very limited as you say although I do like the launch control feature, the only one I use is the twin scroll 03 code. twin maps is a bit sort of not quite though, boost maps yes but thats about all.
Paul agreed, Conrad clearly feels the need, sniping seems to be his speciality.
Conrad, got fed up with leaning back and went and mapped some cars, engines are mechanical, mapping takes 3D thinking which is much more stimulating.
banny sti this is just normal stuff for some here, you can't have a decent and considered tech discussion on this BBS without someone jumping in with size 10's flapping thinking he is going to use it as free advertising.
Damn should have logged in as BR Developments then my Authorised Advertise badge would be showing.
cheers
bob
04 February 2006, 08:39 PM
#98
Bob,
You pays your money, you may as well take advantage of that fact (regarding your Authorised Advertisers tag)
.
But do not worry, we are in the process of thoroughly clamping down and even stamping out others that regulary flaunt the commercial angle on this site, who refuse to support the very same medium in the first place for their own personal commercial gain. While this is a discussion forum, this is not a discussion forum for self promoting one's products or services for commercial advantage or commercial gain...... unless of course one wishes to support that same medium like every other Authorised Advertiser chooses to.
Regards,
Shaun.
You pays your money, you may as well take advantage of that fact (regarding your Authorised Advertisers tag)
. But do not worry, we are in the process of thoroughly clamping down and even stamping out others that regulary flaunt the commercial angle on this site, who refuse to support the very same medium in the first place for their own personal commercial gain. While this is a discussion forum, this is not a discussion forum for self promoting one's products or services for commercial advantage or commercial gain...... unless of course one wishes to support that same medium like every other Authorised Advertiser chooses to.
Regards,
Shaun.
04 February 2006, 08:55 PM
#99
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So exactly how do you map ign timing on the road ?
beware lots of your customers and potential customers are reading this
beware lots of your customers and potential customers are reading this
oh another quick plug for andy f as he set my car up initially with the apexi, highly recommended
04 February 2006, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by David_Wallis
Harvey, Forgive me If I've missed it in the 4 pages, but I dont think anyone has said this ^^^^.
As I said a few pages back, I prefer to do my base map and 'shakedown runs' if thats what you wanna call them on a dyno, then map with race fuel and check everything else out on the road..
Boost control is more fun on the road
David
As I said a few pages back, I prefer to do my base map and 'shakedown runs' if thats what you wanna call them on a dyno, then map with race fuel and check everything else out on the road..
Boost control is more fun on the road
David
Paul
04 February 2006, 09:29 PM
#101
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Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
Paul agreed, Conrad clearly feels the need, sniping seems to be his speciality.
Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
Conrad, got fed up with leaning back and went and mapped some cars, engines are mechanical, mapping takes 3D thinking which is much more stimulating.
after 15 years writing software as a Control & Automation engineer for much more complex processes than engines I occasionally like to de-stimulate and build an engine
Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
banny sti this is just normal stuff for some here, you can't have a decent and considered tech discussion on this BBS without someone jumping in with size 10's flapping thinking he is going to use it as free advertising.
As for free advertising it never entered my mind and at no point did I mention the name of our business, wouldnt want to upset Shaun (again)
Have a good weekend, cheers,
Conrad
04 February 2006, 09:30 PM
#102
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Bob Rawle wrote;
Never got that mail. 
Last I heard you said you were going to contact me after you got back from Abroad...
Assumed you'd either forgotten or had other plans.
Still more than happy to sort somthing out if you want.
Andy
Already offered to go to Power Station but Andy C didn't get back to me.
Last I heard you said you were going to contact me after you got back from Abroad...
Assumed you'd either forgotten or had other plans.
Still more than happy to sort somthing out if you want.
Andy
04 February 2006, 11:58 PM
#103
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Rollers or Road
Nice to see a very informative debate raging on here again and top tuners swapping info and snidey comments....lol....
Having spent 30 years around a rolling road tuner I feel it's time we cleared this little debate up...
Won't mention any names as it would be a "Bad show old boy" but I have recently seen the results of a couple of road maps by a well established tuner and they both left room for improvement....
As I stated earlier I feel you need to use both to make it work really well....To have access to a Dyno Dynamics rolling road and not use it would be just stupid now wouldn't it....(Good luck with your new DD Conrad).
I agree with other peolple that it is purely about how people feel about their cars after they have been mapped that really matters, but would like to issue this small warning to road mappers....If you tell a customer his car produces 350bhp make sure it does as I have seen their faces when you tell them it only produces 320bhp.....
Having spent 30 years around a rolling road tuner I feel it's time we cleared this little debate up...
Won't mention any names as it would be a "Bad show old boy" but I have recently seen the results of a couple of road maps by a well established tuner and they both left room for improvement....
As I stated earlier I feel you need to use both to make it work really well....To have access to a Dyno Dynamics rolling road and not use it would be just stupid now wouldn't it....(Good luck with your new DD Conrad).
I agree with other peolple that it is purely about how people feel about their cars after they have been mapped that really matters, but would like to issue this small warning to road mappers....If you tell a customer his car produces 350bhp make sure it does as I have seen their faces when you tell them it only produces 320bhp.....
05 February 2006, 01:02 AM
#104
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Just out of curiosity who`s been mapping scooby`s the longest out of you guy`s ??? one of the best threads on here this-especially as i want my car mapping later this year-not that im any closer in choosing who im going to get it mapped by???
there is a shortlist of 3 though. 
there is a shortlist of 3 though.
05 February 2006, 11:46 AM
#106
Originally Posted by ukdave
Just out of curiosity who`s been mapping scooby`s the longest out of you guy`s ??? one of the best threads on here this-especially as i want my car mapping later this year-not that im any closer in choosing who im going to get it mapped by??? there is a shortlist of 3 though.
there is a shortlist of 3 though. Regards Maz
05 February 2006, 12:02 PM
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Two questions :
1. How does it come that an Ecutek mapped car produce more bhp after a few miles without altering anything ?
2. And how will the engineers of Subaru start to map a certain ECU for a certian car ?
1. How does it come that an Ecutek mapped car produce more bhp after a few miles without altering anything ?
2. And how will the engineers of Subaru start to map a certain ECU for a certian car ?
05 February 2006, 12:40 PM
#108
Creepy,
Dependant on ECU type they are self learning, so once a map has been done the ECU will continuely monitor to advance or retard (if possible) ignition (within specific limits) etc...... so it is quite feasible that power could slightly increase, of course it could also go the other way.
As regards to your other question..... I suspect Subaru themselves use an engine dyno initially, but I know that another aftermarket division linked with Subaru, use a mixture of RR and Road for their road based products.
Regards,
Shaun.
Dependant on ECU type they are self learning, so once a map has been done the ECU will continuely monitor to advance or retard (if possible) ignition (within specific limits) etc...... so it is quite feasible that power could slightly increase, of course it could also go the other way.
As regards to your other question..... I suspect Subaru themselves use an engine dyno initially, but I know that another aftermarket division linked with Subaru, use a mixture of RR and Road for their road based products.
Regards,
Shaun.
05 February 2006, 07:35 PM
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Heated debate
Well another heated debate on Dyno's.
I would advise everyone to think before posting, else you may regret what you say in the future.
A lot of people earn thier living from mapping and competition in the business is increasing.
There are strong cases for both road and Dyno mapping, but without the dyno session it impossible to accuratly measure the result.
With the increased number of dyno's around the country and their use by clubs for dyno days some customers of road mappers are left scratching their heads when the anticipated BHP figure does not appear.
I would advise everyone to think before posting, else you may regret what you say in the future.
A lot of people earn thier living from mapping and competition in the business is increasing.
There are strong cases for both road and Dyno mapping, but without the dyno session it impossible to accuratly measure the result.
With the increased number of dyno's around the country and their use by clubs for dyno days some customers of road mappers are left scratching their heads when the anticipated BHP figure does not appear.
05 February 2006, 10:28 PM
#110
Of course..... there is also the side of the argument that would suggest that the people that invest considerable amounts of money (£80-£100k) on RR's, must do this for a very valid reason!
Regards,
Shaun.
Regards,
Shaun.
06 February 2006, 12:22 AM
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To me it looks like it comes down to the preferences of the mapper in terms of how they like to work.
I can understand the arguments posted for mapping on rollers and why those tuners who have made the investment in one are keen to illustrate the apparent advantages.
However, I can also see the point for mapping on the road - and the results of the tuners who choose to do that speak for themselves. Speed on the road and figures on the dyno don't necessarily share a direct relationship it would seem.
I had mine mapped on the road in the end as planned. The mapper uploaded a base map from a car with the same spec that he had mapped before... on rollers. This was then tweaked. All I can say is that I am very happy with the results, regardless of what it get's on the dyno.
I can understand the arguments posted for mapping on rollers and why those tuners who have made the investment in one are keen to illustrate the apparent advantages.
However, I can also see the point for mapping on the road - and the results of the tuners who choose to do that speak for themselves. Speed on the road and figures on the dyno don't necessarily share a direct relationship it would seem.
I had mine mapped on the road in the end as planned. The mapper uploaded a base map from a car with the same spec that he had mapped before... on rollers. This was then tweaked. All I can say is that I am very happy with the results, regardless of what it get's on the dyno.
06 February 2006, 12:52 AM
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Cracking thread this with much considered input from seasoned tuners.
As a potential customer to each of you it was initially dissapointing to see bickering and one-upmanship. However, having thought about it further I'd be more concerned if you were scratching each other's backs! This kind of competition has to be of benefit to the people with the hard-earned.
As a potential customer to each of you it was initially dissapointing to see bickering and one-upmanship. However, having thought about it further I'd be more concerned if you were scratching each other's backs! This kind of competition has to be of benefit to the people with the hard-earned.
06 February 2006, 11:32 AM
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Also stated by MartynJ earlier, if the customer is happy with the performance improvment then who cares how it is acheived?
Originally Posted by Ben v7
To me it looks like it comes down to the preferences of the mapper in terms of how they like to work.
I can understand the arguments posted for mapping on rollers and why those tuners who have made the investment in one are keen to illustrate the apparent advantages.
However, I can also see the point for mapping on the road - and the results of the tuners who choose to do that speak for themselves. Speed on the road and figures on the dyno don't necessarily share a direct relationship it would seem.
I had mine mapped on the road in the end as planned. The mapper uploaded a base map from a car with the same spec that he had mapped before... on rollers. This was then tweaked. All I can say is that I am very happy with the results, regardless of what it get's on the dyno.
I can understand the arguments posted for mapping on rollers and why those tuners who have made the investment in one are keen to illustrate the apparent advantages.
However, I can also see the point for mapping on the road - and the results of the tuners who choose to do that speak for themselves. Speed on the road and figures on the dyno don't necessarily share a direct relationship it would seem.
I had mine mapped on the road in the end as planned. The mapper uploaded a base map from a car with the same spec that he had mapped before... on rollers. This was then tweaked. All I can say is that I am very happy with the results, regardless of what it get's on the dyno.
06 February 2006, 08:03 PM
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I think one of the other problems here is, how many of the mappers on here have been the one operating the rolling road??
I think if you know the rolling road and have a lot of experience using it then it may be more beneficial when mapping?
I Know Pat has plenty of experience with the DD rolling roads as I would suspect Steve Simpson, Conrad and possibly Paul do, Surely this would make it easier to load the car up as you want, rather than trying to explain it to the operator??
David
I think if you know the rolling road and have a lot of experience using it then it may be more beneficial when mapping?
I Know Pat has plenty of experience with the DD rolling roads as I would suspect Steve Simpson, Conrad and possibly Paul do, Surely this would make it easier to load the car up as you want, rather than trying to explain it to the operator??
David
06 February 2006, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by MartynJ
If you tell a customer his car produces 350bhp make sure it does as I have seen their faces when you tell them it only produces 320bhp.....
As long as the car achieves the best possible ON THE ROAD performance from the fitted parts, then for me the power output under a rolling roads artificial conditions is of secondary importance.
If your priority is a number from a rolling road then I advise tuning on a rolling road.
Andy
06 February 2006, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy.F
lol, I would usually give a rough estimate within a 30/40bhp range, which is as close as two different makes of rollling road are likely to be
As long as the car achieves the best possible ON THE ROAD performance from the fitted parts, then for me the power output under a rolling roads artificial conditions is of secondary importance.
If your priority is a number from a rolling road then I advise tuning on a rolling road.
Andy
As long as the car achieves the best possible ON THE ROAD performance from the fitted parts, then for me the power output under a rolling roads artificial conditions is of secondary importance.
If your priority is a number from a rolling road then I advise tuning on a rolling road.
Andy
Two years ago I was at powerstation with my WRX RA, FMIC and running near standard boost on 100RON and made 294BHP on a car not mapped in the UK. Another scooby fanatic with a type R mapped by one of the posters here managed 290HP when he was told it should have been more. Now I know on the way up to Powerstation the Type R left me for dead after every roundabout due to far superior torque. But the headline figure on the dyno shoot out was my car had the most BHP, and the other fickle scooby fans applauded the result (personally I felt a bit embarrassed as I knew which car was the quickest in the real world).
I used to get the same thing as a sound engineer, most people wanted to know the power output of an amplifier rather than the quality of sound produced, but who cares when all they listen to is Kylie!
06 February 2006, 10:58 PM
#119
Originally Posted by wideybrook
I think your comment is absolutely spot on and your car has “produced the best possible performance”.
Two years ago I was at powerstation with my WRX RA, FMIC and running near standard boost on 100RON and made 294BHP on a car not mapped in the UK. Another scooby fanatic with a type R mapped by one of the posters here managed 290HP when he was told it should have been more. Now I know on the way up to Powerstation the Type R left me for dead after every roundabout due to far superior torque. But the headline figure on the dyno shoot out was my car had the most BHP, and the other fickle scooby fans applauded the result (personally I felt a bit embarrassed as I knew which car was the quickest in the real world).
I used to get the same thing as a sound engineer, most people wanted to know the power output of an amplifier rather than the quality of sound produced, but who cares when all they listen to is Kylie!
Two years ago I was at powerstation with my WRX RA, FMIC and running near standard boost on 100RON and made 294BHP on a car not mapped in the UK. Another scooby fanatic with a type R mapped by one of the posters here managed 290HP when he was told it should have been more. Now I know on the way up to Powerstation the Type R left me for dead after every roundabout due to far superior torque. But the headline figure on the dyno shoot out was my car had the most BHP, and the other fickle scooby fans applauded the result (personally I felt a bit embarrassed as I knew which car was the quickest in the real world).
I used to get the same thing as a sound engineer, most people wanted to know the power output of an amplifier rather than the quality of sound produced, but who cares when all they listen to is Kylie!
07 February 2006, 07:33 AM
#120
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Re Wideybrook's comments, as a rolling road owner of considerable experience ( 30 years ! ) I am constantly banging on about that one, but nobody listens!
I bought a Dyno Dynamics dyno as they offer the most CONSISTENT testing available. Personally, I don't give much for figures, and never have, as long as you have more when you leave than when you arrived! We have regularly seen accuracy of a single bhp, spread over several day's testing, that's just fine for me, thanks!
I bought a Dyno Dynamics dyno as they offer the most CONSISTENT testing available. Personally, I don't give much for figures, and never have, as long as you have more when you leave than when you arrived! We have regularly seen accuracy of a single bhp, spread over several day's testing, that's just fine for me, thanks!
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