Mapping on Road vs Rollers - Which Better?
01 February 2006, 03:09 PM
#61
Silent Running : I suspect you have not seen a state of the art cooling system like that at Dastek. TEG Sport System is also very good for FMIC cars.
Take a look on their web sites or better still visit the facilities if you get the chance.
Andy : That's what's wrong with your mapping!!! Asda lorries don't go fast enoughto get on boost and spend half their time in lay bys.
As already said, I firmly believe the choice of mapper is crucial and probably the most important decision you will make regards your cars performance and longveity of engine or otherwise.
Also, some mappers are familiar with the vagaries of some ECUs but not others.
Until a couple of months ago I would never have considered mapping on rollers. As a result of more experience I think that SOME rollers can be used effectively by a skilled mapper/operator to provide a good base map that can be perfected on the road. Fuel enrichment for acceleration just for a start.
However as the car is going to be used on the road, road mapping is esential to get satisfactory all round performance. The converse is probably also true in that some minor tidying up may be accomplished on the rollers after a road map has been completed as far as possible in the allocated time.
What I know for sure is the more mapping sessions you have (with the right choice of mapper) then you will always find little improvements which over a period of time can lead to clearly definable performance benefits.
Take a look on their web sites or better still visit the facilities if you get the chance.
Andy : That's what's wrong with your mapping!!! Asda lorries don't go fast enoughto get on boost and spend half their time in lay bys.
As already said, I firmly believe the choice of mapper is crucial and probably the most important decision you will make regards your cars performance and longveity of engine or otherwise.
Also, some mappers are familiar with the vagaries of some ECUs but not others.
Until a couple of months ago I would never have considered mapping on rollers. As a result of more experience I think that SOME rollers can be used effectively by a skilled mapper/operator to provide a good base map that can be perfected on the road. Fuel enrichment for acceleration just for a start.
However as the car is going to be used on the road, road mapping is esential to get satisfactory all round performance. The converse is probably also true in that some minor tidying up may be accomplished on the rollers after a road map has been completed as far as possible in the allocated time.
What I know for sure is the more mapping sessions you have (with the right choice of mapper) then you will always find little improvements which over a period of time can lead to clearly definable performance benefits.
01 February 2006, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by BOB'5
RR if you're interested in bhp bragging.
Road mapped if your interested with how quick it is on the road.
Road mapped if your interested with how quick it is on the road.
01 February 2006, 07:50 PM
#63
Scooby Regular
This is hotting up nicely. I can actually see both sides of this one.
It seems to me that a rolling road is essentially a convenience - a pretty good approximation of real world conditions that's close enough to do the job well. It has its downsides but I don't hear anyone on here claiming a set of rollers is the be all and end all of tuning or benchmarking engine output. So no real problem there then.
I'll always stick by quarter miling as the ultimate benchmarker though for the simple fact that disregarding non-engine mods, there will always be a point at which you simply cannot improve your time without a change in engine tune. Everyone who's been quarter miling even just a handful of times has experienced that...6 or 7 runs in a day, a couple way off the pace, but mostly all within 0.2 sec/5 mph of your best run. That 'brick wall' is a constant that can't be changed. I've run at Santa Pod, York, Avon Park, Bruntingthorpe, even North Weald in the summer, and the bottom line is that quarter mile ETs are nothing like as variable as results from different rolling roads.
On the other hand, rr results are always open to interpretation. Was the trans loss right, was the heat management right, was the 'correction factor' a fiddle to make it look like there was more or less power? As a tuning tool, yes a rolling road is great. As an outright benchmarker, it's a waste of time.
If given the choice between having my car mapped on the road or on rollers, I'd take the road and as someone else mentioned, get it done by someone who knew what they were doing.
It seems to me that a rolling road is essentially a convenience - a pretty good approximation of real world conditions that's close enough to do the job well. It has its downsides but I don't hear anyone on here claiming a set of rollers is the be all and end all of tuning or benchmarking engine output. So no real problem there then.
I'll always stick by quarter miling as the ultimate benchmarker though for the simple fact that disregarding non-engine mods, there will always be a point at which you simply cannot improve your time without a change in engine tune. Everyone who's been quarter miling even just a handful of times has experienced that...6 or 7 runs in a day, a couple way off the pace, but mostly all within 0.2 sec/5 mph of your best run. That 'brick wall' is a constant that can't be changed. I've run at Santa Pod, York, Avon Park, Bruntingthorpe, even North Weald in the summer, and the bottom line is that quarter mile ETs are nothing like as variable as results from different rolling roads.
On the other hand, rr results are always open to interpretation. Was the trans loss right, was the heat management right, was the 'correction factor' a fiddle to make it look like there was more or less power? As a tuning tool, yes a rolling road is great. As an outright benchmarker, it's a waste of time.
If given the choice between having my car mapped on the road or on rollers, I'd take the road and as someone else mentioned, get it done by someone who knew what they were doing.
01 February 2006, 07:58 PM
#64
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And another thing. I've heard tell of this problem at 120mph and over where you get stalled air at the intercooler scoop, which obviously would result in big problems if you're doing any high speed running. Now until I've been out and tested air pressure differentials at the scoop myself with a manometer I won't know the extent of the problem, but that to me is a prime example of something that cannot be dealt with in any way by a rolling road. If intercooler airflow effectively stalls at 120mph you can only map for that by actually taking the car out and doing 120mph. It'll be no good mapping it up on rollers, assuming I/C airflow correlates to road speed, then the first time you cane it down the motorway the charge temp goes off the scale and you put a hole in a piston.
As I say, I've not tested it yet, but that's just one reason I can think of for not relying totally on rr tuning. And yes I have had a fair few sustained 120-130mph runs on the autobahn, although not in my Scoob until I've tested for myself what the airflow situation is.
As I say, I've not tested it yet, but that's just one reason I can think of for not relying totally on rr tuning. And yes I have had a fair few sustained 120-130mph runs on the autobahn, although not in my Scoob until I've tested for myself what the airflow situation is.
01 February 2006, 08:09 PM
#65
I think toooo many people are insinuating that a RR is only good for figures bragging...... which imho is total horse crap! 
As a tool a Dyno, if used properly and setup properly, is a very good method for mapping cars.
Next, some people will be suggesting that a dyno mapped car is slower than a road mapped car!
And then next, some people will be suggesting that Engine Dyno's are useless!
Having had a number of cars either mapped on the road or mapped on a RR I am yet to be convinced that either is better (as regards to the results) than the other from a customer point of view. Obviously the actual TUNER will have his thoughts, but as long as I get what I want I dont give to hoots!
Regards,
Shaun.
As a tool a Dyno, if used properly and setup properly, is a very good method for mapping cars.
Next, some people will be suggesting that a dyno mapped car is slower than a road mapped car!
And then next, some people will be suggesting that Engine Dyno's are useless!
Having had a number of cars either mapped on the road or mapped on a RR I am yet to be convinced that either is better (as regards to the results) than the other from a customer point of view. Obviously the actual TUNER will have his thoughts, but as long as I get what I want I dont give to hoots!
Regards,
Shaun.
01 February 2006, 10:34 PM
#66
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There is one big problem with mapping on the rollers, say you want to load an engine up to a certain load and revs, now you decide how much throttle and how much load from the rollers you are going to use, cos if its not the same as you would use on the road when you drive thro' that point on the road its going to be wrong. Almost infinate combinations to get to that same point.
Road mapping gets the load impedance correct for the cars, gearing, mapped boost response (which should be determined by whats installed and mapper/driver preference) and more importantly allows the car to see the air flow and cooling that it will experience in real conditions, rolling road fans are not able to do that (some are much better than others).
Tying a huge tube to a top mount, for example, is not mimicing road conditions, blast a huge fan at the front of the car with the bonnet shut and ensuring good airflow over the bonnet mimics real world but will never achieve enough air flow.
Rollers are only good for full throttle mapping and then only if the boost reasponse for the road is mimiced and the accelleration rates achieved on the road are mimiced. Thats my view.
All that said if I could completely map a car on the road and then pop it on a dyno to tweak to get quoted figs, what were those speed and rpm readings again ... nah thats cheating of course.
FWIW when I run my own car I only power test, I have never mapped it on the rollers, I also use the same set of rollers for benchmarking, used to be PE but they can't load it up enough so now I always go to G-Force. The Dyno Dynamics rollers can at least be set to run consistently for load run for run. I take my own rpm/speed figures for my cars gearing derived using GPS and they are used each time. Would like to visit TEG, same rollers, be interesting to see what came up from the same settings, or maybe Scooby Clinic same thought. Already offered to go to Power Station but Andy C didn't get back to me.
I use Brunters when mapping highly modified cars, on the road it can be all too damn quick.
Its always going to be debated, those that have the rollers will advocate that route, it also means a customer will get a graph with the right numbers on it, those that like to do it for real (time that is) only use the rollers as a comparitor prefering to see a car doing what it can under more natural circumstances.
Engine dyno's are great, trouble is you can rarely use what you achieve on the road as most engine dyno mapping is "spotting", always needs adjusting on the road. And try mapping part throttle etc on a dyno, doesn't work for the reasons above. Good tool though.
Think Shauns right, as long as a customers happy with the results, and not just the numbers, then horses for courses.
cheers
bob
Road mapping gets the load impedance correct for the cars, gearing, mapped boost response (which should be determined by whats installed and mapper/driver preference) and more importantly allows the car to see the air flow and cooling that it will experience in real conditions, rolling road fans are not able to do that (some are much better than others).
Tying a huge tube to a top mount, for example, is not mimicing road conditions, blast a huge fan at the front of the car with the bonnet shut and ensuring good airflow over the bonnet mimics real world but will never achieve enough air flow.
Rollers are only good for full throttle mapping and then only if the boost reasponse for the road is mimiced and the accelleration rates achieved on the road are mimiced. Thats my view.
All that said if I could completely map a car on the road and then pop it on a dyno to tweak to get quoted figs, what were those speed and rpm readings again ... nah thats cheating of course.
FWIW when I run my own car I only power test, I have never mapped it on the rollers, I also use the same set of rollers for benchmarking, used to be PE but they can't load it up enough so now I always go to G-Force. The Dyno Dynamics rollers can at least be set to run consistently for load run for run. I take my own rpm/speed figures for my cars gearing derived using GPS and they are used each time. Would like to visit TEG, same rollers, be interesting to see what came up from the same settings, or maybe Scooby Clinic same thought. Already offered to go to Power Station but Andy C didn't get back to me.
I use Brunters when mapping highly modified cars, on the road it can be all too damn quick.
Its always going to be debated, those that have the rollers will advocate that route, it also means a customer will get a graph with the right numbers on it, those that like to do it for real (time that is) only use the rollers as a comparitor prefering to see a car doing what it can under more natural circumstances.
Engine dyno's are great, trouble is you can rarely use what you achieve on the road as most engine dyno mapping is "spotting", always needs adjusting on the road. And try mapping part throttle etc on a dyno, doesn't work for the reasons above. Good tool though.
Think Shauns right, as long as a customers happy with the results, and not just the numbers, then horses for courses.
cheers
bob
01 February 2006, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
There is one big problem with mapping on the rollers, say you want to load an engine up to a certain load and revs, now you decide how much throttle and how much load from the rollers you are going to use,
This allows accurate mapping of fuel & ignition in each given cell, using a live bar chart screen you are able to view the best possible setting for that cell.
Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
Road mapping gets the load impedance correct for the cars, gearing, mapped boost response (which should be determined by whats installed and mapper/driver preference).
Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
and more importantly allows the car to see the air flow and cooling that it will experience in real conditions, rolling road fans are not able to do that (some are much better than others).
Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
Tying a huge tube to a top mount, for example, is not mimicing road conditions, blast a huge fan at the front of the car with the bonnet shut and ensuring good airflow over the bonnet mimics real world but will never achieve enough air flow.
Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
Rollers are only good for full throttle mapping and then only if the boost reasponse for the road is mimiced and the accelleration rates achieved on the road are mimiced. Thats my view.
Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
Its always going to be debated, those that have the rollers will advocate that route, it also means a customer will get a graph with the right numbers on it, those that like to do it for real (time that is) only use the rollers as a comparitor prefering to see a car doing what it can under more natural circumstances.
Having looked at maps done on the road and maps that have been done on the rollers you can clearly see which is better and thus relies less on the ECU to interpolate for the cells that couldnt be held.
Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
Engine dyno's are great, trouble is you can rarely use what you achieve on the road as most engine dyno mapping is "spotting", always needs adjusting on the road. And try mapping part throttle etc on a dyno, doesn't work for the reasons above. Good tool though.
As for part throttle mapping on a dyno and it not working I think your having another moment Bob, pop up some time I'll show you how to use a dyno and map part throttle I do agree its a very good tool
Regards
Conrad
Last edited by The Fixer; 01 February 2006 at 11:28 PM.
01 February 2006, 11:34 PM
#68
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Hows the new rolling road going Conrad ? As quiet as the others ?
Andy
ps I think you will find that despite not actually owning one, Bob has CONSIDERABLE experience of rolling roads.
Andy
ps I think you will find that despite not actually owning one, Bob has CONSIDERABLE experience of rolling roads.
01 February 2006, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Conrad_Bradley
Its funny really theres three types of mappers on here, old skool who are stuck in there ways, new skool who use dynos to map every single load point and those who have mapped on the road and can clearly see the benefit of mapping on rollers and are now using dynos (even if they dont own one). Its not about producing nice graphs for the customer, its about getting the best map for all conditions.
Having looked at maps done on the road and maps that have been done on the rollers you can clearly see which is better and thus relies less on the ECU to interpolate for the cells that couldnt be held.
Regards
Conrad
Having looked at maps done on the road and maps that have been done on the rollers you can clearly see which is better and thus relies less on the ECU to interpolate for the cells that couldnt be held.
Regards
Conrad
You really need to show me how to just look at a map and declare it better than another, that would save me ages actually live mapping
01 February 2006, 11:59 PM
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Not at all Andy, didnt you know that its not all about nig numbers and and quick times in a straight line down a strip?....... lol There are more positions on the throttle other than flat on the floor and off
As for the other point, show you???? lol. My point was aimed at missing or incorrect numbers in between other cells which the ECU has to interpolate for.
As for the other point, show you???? lol. My point was aimed at missing or incorrect numbers in between other cells which the ECU has to interpolate for.
02 February 2006, 05:37 PM
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Mapping cars on the road is done by people that don't own a decent Dyno
if you are mapping ignition timing on the road - basically the method is to advance the timing till the engine dets and then knock it back a few degree's
the problem here is that most cars drop off power long before they det and then how do you know how much to retard the ingnition ? (most engines that melt or blow up are because they are over advanced)
A decent Modern Rolling Road operates so you can see exactly how much power that half a degree of ign advance has given you - or lost you too !!
this way every site on the whole map can be very accurately mapped. The ECU itself takes care of the temperature and pressure and has compensation maps to allow you to run the car on a hot and a cold day without having it to be remapped - how often do you see subaru sending out cars with two ecu's one for a cold day and one for a hot day
If the car has been PROPERLY mapped on a Rolling Road it should not need to be driven on the road for more tuning - however a road test is certainly advised
if you are mapping ignition timing on the road - basically the method is to advance the timing till the engine dets and then knock it back a few degree's
the problem here is that most cars drop off power long before they det and then how do you know how much to retard the ingnition ? (most engines that melt or blow up are because they are over advanced)
A decent Modern Rolling Road operates so you can see exactly how much power that half a degree of ign advance has given you - or lost you too !!
this way every site on the whole map can be very accurately mapped. The ECU itself takes care of the temperature and pressure and has compensation maps to allow you to run the car on a hot and a cold day without having it to be remapped - how often do you see subaru sending out cars with two ecu's one for a cold day and one for a hot day
If the car has been PROPERLY mapped on a Rolling Road it should not need to be driven on the road for more tuning - however a road test is certainly advised
02 February 2006, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by 10oftheBest
Mapping cars on the road is done by people that don't own a decent Dyno
if you are mapping ignition timing on the road - basically the method is to advance the timing till the engine dets and then knock it back a few degree's
the problem here is that most cars drop off power long before they det and then how do you know how much to retard the ingnition ? (most engines that melt or blow up are because they are over advanced)
A decent Modern Rolling Road operates so you can see exactly how much power that half a degree of ign advance has given you - or lost you too !!
this way every site on the whole map can be very accurately mapped. The ECU itself takes care of the temperature and pressure and has compensation maps to allow you to run the car on a hot and a cold day without having it to be remapped - how often do you see subaru sending out cars with two ecu's one for a cold day and one for a hot day
If the car has been PROPERLY mapped on a Rolling Road it should not need to be driven on the road for more tuning - however a road test is certainly advised
if you are mapping ignition timing on the road - basically the method is to advance the timing till the engine dets and then knock it back a few degree's
the problem here is that most cars drop off power long before they det and then how do you know how much to retard the ingnition ? (most engines that melt or blow up are because they are over advanced)
A decent Modern Rolling Road operates so you can see exactly how much power that half a degree of ign advance has given you - or lost you too !!
this way every site on the whole map can be very accurately mapped. The ECU itself takes care of the temperature and pressure and has compensation maps to allow you to run the car on a hot and a cold day without having it to be remapped - how often do you see subaru sending out cars with two ecu's one for a cold day and one for a hot day
If the car has been PROPERLY mapped on a Rolling Road it should not need to be driven on the road for more tuning - however a road test is certainly advised
02 February 2006, 05:43 PM
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02 February 2006, 06:10 PM
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When it comes to mapping, there is I think one fundamental rule, and that is that there are no rules. What works for a N/A honda doesn't necessarily work on a turbocharged car, especially a subaru. On a subaru with factory compression ratios, and cast pistons, on a standard sized or even slighty larger turbo, you will not reach MBT full boost on pump fuel, and you still won't reach it with a healthy does of octane booster. Subaru knows this which is why the factory ECU does knock based ignition learning, the extent and range of which is mappable itself.
And while you're loving the factory ECU's compensation for temperature, ponder how the pre2001 euro cars did such comprehensive temperature compensation without an inlet temperature sensor? While a MAF can compensate for changes in density, it can't tell you to reduce the duty cycle due to low ambient temps. Even those cars fitted with an inlet temperature sensor measure the temperature in the airbox, so they can't compensite directly for changes in intercooler efficiency (which will vary with speed, ambient temperature, density etc etc).
Your attitude could do with a remap too.
Paul
And while you're loving the factory ECU's compensation for temperature, ponder how the pre2001 euro cars did such comprehensive temperature compensation without an inlet temperature sensor? While a MAF can compensate for changes in density, it can't tell you to reduce the duty cycle due to low ambient temps. Even those cars fitted with an inlet temperature sensor measure the temperature in the airbox, so they can't compensite directly for changes in intercooler efficiency (which will vary with speed, ambient temperature, density etc etc).
Your attitude could do with a remap too.
Paul
02 February 2006, 06:38 PM
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So exactly how do you map ign timing on the road ?
beware lots of your customers and potential customers are reading this
as - to my attitude needing a remap - it was your smart arsed comments about school that were in need of attention
I simply spoke the truth and you didn't like what you heard
beware lots of your customers and potential customers are reading this
as - to my attitude needing a remap - it was your smart arsed comments about school that were in need of attention
I simply spoke the truth and you didn't like what you heard
02 February 2006, 07:14 PM
#78
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Originally Posted by Zen Performance
Your attitude could do with a remap too.
Paul
So we're all agreed that everyone's going to do whatever they personally prefer then? I still contend that no rolling road can accurately simulate real-world airflow over a car. Or at least not one that joe public could access. MIRA might have one in a wind tunnel or something. And I've had plenty of experience of rolling road tuned cars that will do numbers all day long and run perfectly within parameters on rollers, yet after 3 laps of a circuit they fail.
02 February 2006, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by 10oftheBest
So exactly how do you map ign timing on the road ?
beware lots of your customers and potential customers are reading this
as - to my attitude needing a remap - it was your smart arsed comments about school that were in need of attention
I simply spoke the truth and you didn't like what you heard
beware lots of your customers and potential customers are reading this
as - to my attitude needing a remap - it was your smart arsed comments about school that were in need of attention
I simply spoke the truth and you didn't like what you heard
I suppose it would be nice to just get the car onto load on the rollers, and sit it there while you dial the fuel up and down to get optimum power, then the ignition, then trya further pass to see if you can improve it some more? Great idea, now try it with an Ecutek remap that doesn't allow you to live map. So instead you make some changes, try it on a power run, and it makes more power, woo hoo you're winning! But hang on, if you make one more run, it makes more power again, but you've changed nothing, where has the power come from in just 20 seconds? So you run it again, and it's lost power at the top end, but is that something the ECU is doing, or is it a temperature thing, or a boost control thing? Experience will tell you what you need to know, but if you're experience is ONLY of running cars on the dyno, you are going to run into trouble.
I agree that mapping can be carried out on a dyno, which is why I spend the best part of two pages making the case for how good the dyno is for mapping. But it is NOT the be all and end all of mapping and it leaves a lot to be desired for boost control mapping. The latter is doubly so when mapping on an engine dyno, or even a hub dyno as they are difficult to use to replicate the road rates that occur in a given gear. Since turbo spoolup is a time, inlet temperature and exhaust temperature related thing, not just RPM related, it is this area which is most troublesome on the dyno. I have spent over an hour mapping boost control on the road, after the dyno, limited by the flexibility of a mapping system that requires a complete reflash or eprom programming. A dyno would be very convenient in this case, but for now (until the dyno companies give us the control we would like) the road is essential.
You will also find that a car mapped solely on the dyno, can almost always get away with more boost, more ignition timing and leaner AFR on the drag strip. It is almost impossible to replicate this on a dyno in the normal way (some dynos have 1/4 mile simulation, which may be of some use) and trying to do so may blow a car mapped purely for the drag strip.
Ultimately mapping on the road may be more difficult, as you need to develop a feel for each car. With experience you can feel the onset of MBT, and in those cases, dropping the ignition back as much as 4 degrees (when approaching 30 degrees) can result in a minimal loss of torque for a significant reduction in stress on the engine.
How many cars (or what proportion) have you mapped on the dyno vs that on the road? And what were the relative merits of the methods you tried yourself?
Paul
Last edited by ZEN Performance; 02 February 2006 at 07:34 PM.
02 February 2006, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by silent running
And I've had plenty of experience of rolling road tuned cars that will do numbers all day long and run perfectly within parameters on rollers, yet after 3 laps of a circuit they fail.
Paul
02 February 2006, 08:03 PM
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i've been tuning cars over 10 years and most of them were done on the road
(still think i'm a school kid ?)
with different levels of success
I used to believe tuning them to the threshold of det was a good method
how wrong i was !!
there are many assumptions in the tuning industy about what is right and wrong - saldy even some of the people who design aftermarket ecus get it wrong
what was so wrong about my statement that made you think i was a school kid ?
it seems we agree on some things here, can't understand what has rattled your cage TBH - if you are happy tuning it your way - then go for it
(still think i'm a school kid ?)
with different levels of success
I used to believe tuning them to the threshold of det was a good method
how wrong i was !!
there are many assumptions in the tuning industy about what is right and wrong - saldy even some of the people who design aftermarket ecus get it wrong
what was so wrong about my statement that made you think i was a school kid ?
it seems we agree on some things here, can't understand what has rattled your cage TBH - if you are happy tuning it your way - then go for it
02 February 2006, 08:11 PM
#82
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Exactly. Technology is always improving, dynos are always improving, some day soon there will be an affordable dyno cell which will give you a 'wall of air' effect that accurately replicates road driving. Until then, use rolling roads for rough comparative testing and the undeniable convenience of having the car stay in one place while you're working on it; use road mapping to account for airflow anomalies that simply don't come up at standstill with a fan blowing at the car.
And btw I WILL be going out on the roads this weekend to test bonnet scoop throughflow at different speeds. Thought of the day: if in doubt, rig up some equipment and test it for yourself. Then see if the results you've found on your own car match up with the theory and/or experiences of others. If it seems like you're out on your own about some aspect of modded car performance, there's a slim chance that you might be right and everyone else is just repeating what they heard elsewhere...
And btw I WILL be going out on the roads this weekend to test bonnet scoop throughflow at different speeds. Thought of the day: if in doubt, rig up some equipment and test it for yourself. Then see if the results you've found on your own car match up with the theory and/or experiences of others. If it seems like you're out on your own about some aspect of modded car performance, there's a slim chance that you might be right and everyone else is just repeating what they heard elsewhere...
02 February 2006, 08:20 PM
#83
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You were at the G-Force hosted EFI101 course I assume, I don't think any school kids were there There was nothing wrong with what you said in your initial post at all, when taken in the correct context. However coming to specifically to a Subaru forum and saying that is asking for trouble, simply because of how subarus seem (for the most part) to respond to tuning. What rattled my cage is someone telling me that what I am doing can't possibly work.
Tuning to the limit of det does work on most of the cars I tune day to day, but there are some where you can go too far, you keep adding timing and nothing changes, the car feels no quicker, and it doesn't det. So in this case there is no benefit in looking for the det, but sometimes I still like to find it (even some light sparkliness) just to know what's going on. But it's important to know how the engine responds, as it will give you clues as to what direction to try with the engine.
Ecutek has some nice tools for power measuremnt via datalogging. And you can use these, as I do to sanity check things. When you remove 5 degrees of timing and lose 35hp at the wheels for the same boost (for instance, that is not a check I would usually make), you can be pretty sure that MBT is some way off.
Have you tuned N/A cars to the det threshold?
Paul
Tuning to the limit of det does work on most of the cars I tune day to day, but there are some where you can go too far, you keep adding timing and nothing changes, the car feels no quicker, and it doesn't det. So in this case there is no benefit in looking for the det, but sometimes I still like to find it (even some light sparkliness) just to know what's going on. But it's important to know how the engine responds, as it will give you clues as to what direction to try with the engine.
Ecutek has some nice tools for power measuremnt via datalogging. And you can use these, as I do to sanity check things. When you remove 5 degrees of timing and lose 35hp at the wheels for the same boost (for instance, that is not a check I would usually make), you can be pretty sure that MBT is some way off.
Have you tuned N/A cars to the det threshold?
Paul
Originally Posted by 10oftheBest
i've been tuning cars over 10 years and most of them were done on the road
(still think i'm a school kid ?)
with different levels of success
I used to believe tuning them to the threshold of det was a good method
how wrong i was !!
there are many assumptions in the tuning industy about what is right and wrong - saldy even some of the people who design aftermarket ecus get it wrong
what was so wrong about my statement that made you think i was a school kid ?
it seems we agree on some things here, can't understand what has rattled your cage TBH - if you are happy tuning it your way - then go for it
(still think i'm a school kid ?)
with different levels of success
I used to believe tuning them to the threshold of det was a good method
how wrong i was !!
there are many assumptions in the tuning industy about what is right and wrong - saldy even some of the people who design aftermarket ecus get it wrong
what was so wrong about my statement that made you think i was a school kid ?
it seems we agree on some things here, can't understand what has rattled your cage TBH - if you are happy tuning it your way - then go for it
02 February 2006, 09:43 PM
#84
Ecu Specialist
Well well thats drawn teeth !!
Conrad you use your methods ... I have mine and they seem to work, I'll happily debate what's a load of old bollocks when we finally meet, meantime I suggest you stick to what you know not what you think you know, holding load points stationary on the dyno is exactly why you shouldn't use it to set a map in stone.
Your condescension does nothing more than demonstrate what a blinkered approach you have ... my post wasn't even specific to you either, whats up short of business ?
You have been sooo quick to bite back at me you must have something to hide ... lol.
As for factory tuning, if it was that good what are we all doing ?
Aftermarket management is relatively easy to deal with, as Paul states remapping the factory management is something else.
cheers
bob (leans back and waits)
Conrad you use your methods ... I have mine and they seem to work, I'll happily debate what's a load of old bollocks when we finally meet, meantime I suggest you stick to what you know not what you think you know, holding load points stationary on the dyno is exactly why you shouldn't use it to set a map in stone.
Your condescension does nothing more than demonstrate what a blinkered approach you have ... my post wasn't even specific to you either, whats up short of business ?
You have been sooo quick to bite back at me you must have something to hide ... lol.
As for factory tuning, if it was that good what are we all doing ?
Aftermarket management is relatively easy to deal with, as Paul states remapping the factory management is something else.
cheers
bob (leans back and waits)
02 February 2006, 10:05 PM
#85
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Originally Posted by 10oftheBest
i've been tuning cars over 10 years and most of them were done on the road
(still think i'm a school kid ?)
with different levels of success
I used to believe tuning them to the threshold of det was a good method
how wrong i was !!
there are many assumptions in the tuning industy about what is right and wrong - saldy even some of the people who design aftermarket ecus get it wrong
what was so wrong about my statement that made you think i was a school kid ?
it seems we agree on some things here, can't understand what has rattled your cage TBH - if you are happy tuning it your way - then go for it
(still think i'm a school kid ?)
with different levels of success
I used to believe tuning them to the threshold of det was a good method
how wrong i was !!
there are many assumptions in the tuning industy about what is right and wrong - saldy even some of the people who design aftermarket ecus get it wrong
what was so wrong about my statement that made you think i was a school kid ?
it seems we agree on some things here, can't understand what has rattled your cage TBH - if you are happy tuning it your way - then go for it
Pauls car does the talking, how about yours
Paul: Looking forward to seeing you at the Pod this year
Rob
02 February 2006, 10:44 PM
#87
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
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Bob/Paul
I think one of the issues is that the aftermarket ECU mappers commenting here have not had experience of the JECS or Denso OEM Subaru ECU's
As Paul stated (and I'm sure Bob is aware) the OEM ECU is quite smart. Traditional or 'old skool' (if I dare call them that) tuning methods no longer apply.
Add some timing for example and the ECU 'may' take it back out plus some !
Pull some fuel out and the ECU may add more than you pulled out.
Just two of the issues that are best addressed on the road at the acceleration rates and loads the engine has to cope with during normal use.
Add to this the gear specific boost and wastegate offsets which rely on acceleration and you can get in a real mess on the rollers !
I don't think anyone disagrees that rollers have their place for base mapping however personally having mapped over 200 Imprezas in the last year alone, I don't need any more base maps to start from !!
Andy
I think one of the issues is that the aftermarket ECU mappers commenting here have not had experience of the JECS or Denso OEM Subaru ECU's
As Paul stated (and I'm sure Bob is aware) the OEM ECU is quite smart. Traditional or 'old skool' (if I dare call them that) tuning methods no longer apply.
Add some timing for example and the ECU 'may' take it back out plus some !
Pull some fuel out and the ECU may add more than you pulled out.
Just two of the issues that are best addressed on the road at the acceleration rates and loads the engine has to cope with during normal use.
Add to this the gear specific boost and wastegate offsets which rely on acceleration and you can get in a real mess on the rollers !
I don't think anyone disagrees that rollers have their place for base mapping however personally having mapped over 200 Imprezas in the last year alone, I don't need any more base maps to start from !!
Andy
02 February 2006, 10:45 PM
#88
My vote goes to Bob Rawle and AndyF
The question I'd like to ask is why EcuTeK can't sort out some software that Emulates the Subaru OEM ECU on a laptop and download the final map at the end of the session ......... then all the stopping to reflash the ECU would be a thing of the past !!
Midlife.....
The question I'd like to ask is why EcuTeK can't sort out some software that Emulates the Subaru OEM ECU on a laptop and download the final map at the end of the session ......... then all the stopping to reflash the ECU would be a thing of the past !!
Midlife.....
02 February 2006, 10:51 PM
#89
Subaru Tuning Specialist
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Some of the ECU's have a live mapping facility Shaun, if you choose to use that file on them. Limited use however in my opinion and the 03 onwards WRX is better off retaining is original software code rather than taking the backward step to the twin map version from the earlier cars.
Andy
Andy