OllyK

If your best friend gets a cracking job and moves away to the USA are you upset that they have gone to a better life? Maybe a little, you may not see them as often, but on the whole, I hope you'd be happy for them.

Your best mate now dies, if you really believe in the Christian interpretation, then assuming they have gone to heaven, you will join them there in a few short years to spend all eternity in bliss. So surely now you should be delighted for them??

For me, anybody that dies is worm fodder, there is no re-union so yes I find it upsetting, but why a Christian? Interesting that they have to bring in the little caveat that suicide is wrong in the eyes of the Lord otherwise everybody that belived would just top themseleves and bypass the pain in the *** 2 score and 10 on earth and fast forward to the good bit.

Sbradley

Olly, the church answer to that is that only God has the right to take a life - not man. Even if the life is your own.

Personally I believe that there is something after life. I don't know what - I've not been there - so i don't know if it's better or worse. Just something else.

SB

davegtt

Would it be fair to say you would like to believe in afterlife rather than believe it. I think Believing in something than cannot be proved is a little foolish although theres no harm in saying I would like to believe there is something.

Each to their own but I personally would struggle to understand someone believing in something that cannot be proved.

Sbradley

No no, I'll behave

Though for the record God preceded Freemasonry for me. And indeed a belief in a supreme being is a prerequisite for becoming a mason...

SB

RedFive

You gave your own answer Most people would feel the need to "politically correct" (now there's an NSR term) say they are happy for the friend. Yet, they would most probably feel bad about it, and sulk, because they would feel abandoned. Which is human BTW. But it's a very good example.

Which also would mean that everybody/everything that gets born is worm fodder. Agreed ? I'm sure quite a few parents on here may have a problem with that.

(I'm not saying I disagree with that, trying to argue the "other" side.)

Sbradley

No, I do believe it. One day I will receive proof. I won't be able to pass it on, of course, but that's another matter entirely...

SB

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

See now where at the bit where if you believe that you are going to a place akin to paradise and that by blowing yourself up it is a good thing it's not that far away from what some people believe about being a Christian etc. All brainwashed idiots IMHO.

davegtt

LOL.. you believe it, you dont know it, you dont have proof and one day you may recieve proof that your beliefs are all wrong. You fail to mention that. Just because you believe it, it doesnt mean its going to happen. one of us are right, there is or is not an afterlife. I hope to be proved wrong and there is but wont (or at least can't) be dissapointed if Im right. You seem to think by believing it in you'll be right when the time comes.

Sbradley

Not necessarily. I'm not qualified to say if someone who believes they have met God is delusional or blessed.

Who says we can't meet or see God? You need a definition of what God is before you can make that call, and as you deny His existence then you'll be pushed to define him. If you are a person who sees God as a person, that benevolent old man sitting ona cloud, then you'll not, I suggest, meet Him in this life. But if you see God as something else, or perhaps more accurately see Him in something else - then you may just be in luck...

SB

Sbradley

On the contrary, I'll not be disappointed at all if I'm wrong.

I won't be anything at all if I'm wrong. Apart from a worm condo, that is.

Belief and faith, by their very nature, are extremely difficult to explain or rationalise. But hey - I've given it a try. And I'm quite enjoying the mental exercise, too

SB

davegtt

The closest thing to God IMO is Mother Nature.

Sbradley

Which part of "Personally I believe that there is something after life. I don't know what - I've not been there - so i don't know if it's better or worse. Just something else." do you take to mean that it's OK to blow myself up because I'll go to paradise?

You should be a spin doctor - able to concoct whatever you want from the data that's actually in front of you...

For the record (though you'll probably misinterpret this as well), as far as I understand there is no religious teaching that says it's OK to commit suicide other than Shinto. Which is polyatheistic (sp?) and so doesn't really count anyway...

SB

Sbradley

You'll get no argument from me there.

SB

Reality

But you are qualified to call someone a pillock for asking if you met God .

You sound like you believe that we were created by something unkown to ourselves and that that something exists in a place we don't fully understand - I put it to you that that is not believing in God - It could well be an all seeing all knowing Dog (As neither of us really knows) .

Sheep believe in God, Some people believe in "A greater power not fully known to us" and I believe in Olly's Worms .

OllyK

Because otherwise the believers would top themselves and there wouldn't be a church or anybody to pass on the word.

The only trouble is of course is in the bible there are things like "an eye for an eye", and the punishment for adultery by a woman which kind of go against that, but then the bible isn't renowned for being self consistent.

So you belive in a supreme being AND and afterlife?

OllyK

And there we have the very corner stone of every religion in existence...

RedFive

Where to start

OK, first of all, I may have replied on that thread as EvilBevel, an account I no longer have the password for.

Secondly: I learned a lot from that thread...

(imagine someone saying that on a BBS But then again you deserve a kudo for that thread alone...)

Anyhoo.

In my little mind/culture/upbringing/uni/blah, freemasons were always atheists. Why ? Because I was born/brought up/etc... in Belgium/France.

It was only after that thread I realized that there is a major difference between masons in the UK and France/Belgium, and that I was ill-informed. (Ill-Luminated if you will )

Over here, politically & historically, it was always about free-thinking, which meant - back then - being liberal (in the 19th century UK sense of word...) and *thus* being anti-clerical. (read: you guys never got invaded by those catholic Spaniard doods like we did )

I remember you mostly ignored me back then, in that thread. Shame on you! At least I knew you ride a bike and if I'm not mistaken are an instructor or something like that. D'oh. Or posted on Evo But that's all smalltalk...

Don't worry, I'm not a Mason. Nobody ever thought I was smart enough for that LOL I still hate 'm for that. Bugger

OllyK

Only from the ones that believe in an after life or prefer cremation

OllyK

No - 1 day you MAY get proof, but if you don't you won't know anything about it anyway.

RedFive

In all respect: that is not an argument.

Try proving flat screen television in the 17th century.

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

My point is you believe there is some form of afterlife. I doubt you think it will be somethign terrible. people often say it's a 'better place'. The people who blow themselves up do it in the name of martyrdom. They also believe that there is something after this life which is akin to paradise. In both cases as I see it you are basing this on nothing tangible at all other than it probably gives you comfort of some kind be it your own mortality or that or past relatives/friends etc. In both cases I can't get my head round how any sane balanced person could think this to be the case.

OllyK

And all it takes is a little creative interpretion or selective quoting of these inconsistent religious texts to show that those of another faith are wrong and must be punished / killed or wiped out.

Sbradley

Thanks for the kind words and I'm glad you learned. Hopefully others did as well...

Sorry i ignored you. I'm guessing that I had my hands rather full at the time but nonetheless you should have got a response. then again, you did say "mostly ignored"...

If you're interested in joining or even finding out more then drop me a PM and we can talk further. You're in the UK now?

SB

OllyK

Ok - go for it, define god for us if that's to be the starting point.

Careful - big difference between denial and dis-belief based on lack of evidence. Besides, you are making the claim of existence, you have to provide the evidence to support the claim. Besides - how can you define something you deny exists?

But until YOU define the thing that YOU think exists how can you or anybody else verify that what you have seen / experienced is what is considered to be god.

OllyK

Actually, due to the inconsistencies in most religious texts and the claim that some parts are allagory and others aren't, you can actually claim that most of them do condone suicide if that's how you want to interpret it. The bible certainly condones self sacrifice - what is the ultimate sacrifice if it isn't giving your own life?

Leslie

I have often found that those who vehemently deny the existence of God find it more convenient not to follow a religion and their sometimes unpleasant remarks addressed towards those who do believe in a religion are purely an attempt at an excuse for their own beliefs, or lack of!

My own beliefs are of no consequence on this thread, purely of interest to me alone.

I do think however that we are all fully entitled to believe whatever our consciences dictate and that it is unfair and illogical to berate someone for having a different outlook on life to yourself as long as they follow the basic tenets of Natural Law.

I see nothing wrong in any religion which encourages its followers to lead a good, honest, and blameless life.

Les

Reality

Absolutely.

But when you get good Christians telling other good Christians that the Tsunami was the fault of the poofs a line has been well and truly crossed.

When you get Bush saying he Invaded Eye-Rack because God Told him too you're in big trouble.

I could go on but I might upset some Priest or his Flock. Why do some Priests refer to their congregations as their flock

OllyK

Do you mean deny or dis-believe, there's a lot of difference. There is also a big difference between agnostic / soft atheist / hard atheist and a person who is religiously apathetic which I think is a more acurate term for the person you describe. I am not an atheist because I want to cast off some shackles but through a process of logical thought and reasoning. When you can get to the existence of a god by the same mechanism, we will have common ground for discussion.

Not some much berate, but get fustrated with people who insist on a position and yet refuse to provide anything more than internalisied feelings that they are correct.

An what is wrong with people without any religion that do the same?

Dracoro

So people who commit suicide don't go to heaven/have an afterlife etc?? What happens to them?

RedFive

Thanks for the kind offer, and I may send you a PM just to chat. I would never join though. That's OK with you ?