So why is it that...
04 January 2006, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Reality
When are we gonna get "Civil" Burials - OR can you get them already ?
The thought of some ***** saying "Dear old Reality has gone into your care oh great almighty one" is the only thing that worries me about dying
.
(That and some w@nker in the morgue taking the **** out of my small *****
)
The thought of some ***** saying "Dear old Reality has gone into your care oh great almighty one" is the only thing that worries me about dying
.(That and some w@nker in the morgue taking the **** out of my small *****
)
04 January 2006, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Sbradley
"If you've met God then..."
Pillock.
There are millions of people and things that you've not seen, touched, smelled or whatever but you recogise that they exist despite that.
Pillock.
There are millions of people and things that you've not seen, touched, smelled or whatever but you recogise that they exist despite that.
04 January 2006, 02:35 PM
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Why do I believe in God?
Fair question. Difficult to answer, though, to be honest. It's a very personal thing.
Partly it's down to having seen and experienced things that defy any other explanation. Surviving things that were technically unsurvivable, for example. Or seeing things seemingly randomly preserved in a sea of chaos and destruction.
Partly it's down to a refusal to accept or believe that we're here by chance and that everything we do is for nothing - we're born we die, that's it.
And partly because I simply do.
I may try to elaborate later, though I may well not...
SB
Fair question. Difficult to answer, though, to be honest. It's a very personal thing.
Partly it's down to having seen and experienced things that defy any other explanation. Surviving things that were technically unsurvivable, for example. Or seeing things seemingly randomly preserved in a sea of chaos and destruction.
Partly it's down to a refusal to accept or believe that we're here by chance and that everything we do is for nothing - we're born we die, that's it.
And partly because I simply do.
I may try to elaborate later, though I may well not...
SB
04 January 2006, 02:35 PM
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But on a more serious note: this debate turned into "why religion", as I thought it was meant to be why religious people seem to interpret every act or situation according to how it seems fit.
I'm sure you can be religious without seeing everything as a "sign" or "punishment". Right ?
I'm sure you can be religious without seeing everything as a "sign" or "punishment". Right ?
04 January 2006, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Karl 227
The most modern thing over here is the "Friedenswald" or "Peace Forest", where you pick a tree for your ashes to be buried under, with or without religious cufuffle....
Originally Posted by Karl 227
.....and if you don't pay church tax you don't get a church burial.....
04 January 2006, 02:41 PM
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RedFive, you're absolutely right.
There are plenty of things, good and bad, that I see every day which could be attributed to God but could equally be attributed to human error, human nature, human endeavour or whatever.
I reserve seeing the hand of God for things which, to me, have no other possible explanation...
SB
PS I don't know (or really care) about yours, but MY God doesn't go around handing out punishments *****-nilly anyway.
There are plenty of things, good and bad, that I see every day which could be attributed to God but could equally be attributed to human error, human nature, human endeavour or whatever.
I reserve seeing the hand of God for things which, to me, have no other possible explanation...
SB
PS I don't know (or really care) about yours, but MY God doesn't go around handing out punishments *****-nilly anyway.
04 January 2006, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by OllyK
Congratulations.
<psst - somebody call the funny farm
>
<psst - somebody call the funny farm
>Taken from the BBC natural history files.
The search for the unicorn, and proof of its existance, dates back
almost as far as the legends which surround it. Ctesias spoke of the
unicorn in the court of Darius II, the King of Persia in 416 BC. Chinese
writings date back to 2800 BC. The men of the ancient world believed in
the existance of the unicorn, so the object of their searching was to find
it, and prove it existed. It wasn't until later in history that man
first sighted unicorn in the new forest in southern England. In the ninth century, Margoulies wrote, 'It is universally held that the unicorn is a
natural being and the desendant of a horse."
Even village women and children know the unicorn as a friendly animal. But this animal does not figure among the barnyard animals, it is not always easy to come across, it does not lend itself to zoological classification, nor is
it like the horse or bull, the wolf or deer. In such circumstances we may
be face to face with a unicorn and not know for sure that we are. We know
a certain animal with a mane is a horse and that a certain animal with
horns is a bull. The last sighting of a unicorn was on the yorkshire moors in 1998 by a long distance lorry driver on his way to the hull ferry terminal. He later reported; "I was suprised to see a white horse on the moors, they're normally always dark, but when I saw the horn I was completely bowled over. I pulled over to take a closer look and was able to walk right up to it, I held out my hand and it let me touch it, the clear eyes were haunting and the horn was like a pointed spiral, it seemed a very friendly animal but as I took my camera from my pocket it simply bolted and was gone in a flash, I'll never forget that moment for the rest of my days."
04 January 2006, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by RedFive
But on a more serious note: this debate turned into "why religion", as I thought it was meant to be why religious people seem to interpret every act or situation according to how it seems fit.
I'm sure you can be religious without seeing everything as a "sign" or "punishment". Right ?
I'm sure you can be religious without seeing everything as a "sign" or "punishment". Right ?
I see it most with Christians, maybe as I am more exposed to them, and in particular Americans. Watch some of the home rennovation programs and such that are US based. When they see the house it's all "Thank you god" and not "Thank you fred for all your hard work". They are thanking god for providing them with the hard working souls that have sorted their **** pit out. I saw much the same thing with what was initially thought to be the saving of the miners. Thank you god and off to church. However when it turns out they were not saved, we don't see all these people in church going "god, you're a ***** fu*ker, why did you do this?", not they are off hitting the guy who broke the news and blaming the mining company. Know while I agree the mining company is where the anger should perhaps be aimed, I also thing the gratitude should be directed to the people that tried to save the miners and not god.
04 January 2006, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Karl 227
Excuse me Mister K
Taken from the BBC natural history files.
The search for the unicorn, and proof of its existance, dates back
almost as far as the legends which surround it. Ctesias spoke of the
unicorn in the court of Darius II, the King of Persia in 416 BC. Chinese
writings date back to 2800 BC. The men of the ancient world believed in
the existance of the unicorn, so the object of their searching was to find
it, and prove it existed. It wasn't until later in history that man
first sighted unicorn in the new forest in southern England. In the ninth century, Margoulies wrote, 'It is universally held that the unicorn is a
natural being and the desendant of a horse."
Even village women and children know the unicorn as a friendly animal. But this animal does not figure among the barnyard animals, it is not always easy to come across, it does not lend itself to zoological classification, nor is
it like the horse or bull, the wolf or deer. In such circumstances we may
be face to face with a unicorn and not know for sure that we are. We know
a certain animal with a mane is a horse and that a certain animal with
horns is a bull. The last sighting of a unicorn was on the yorkshire moors in 1998 by a long distance lorry driver on his way to the hull ferry terminal. He later reported; "I was suprised to see a white horse on the moors, they're normally always dark, but when I saw the horn I was completely bowled over. I pulled over to take a closer look and was able to walk right up to it, I held out my hand and it let me touch it, the clear eyes were haunting and the horn was like a pointed spiral, it seemed a very friendly animal but as I took my camera from my pocket it simply bolted and was gone in a flash, I'll never forget that moment for the rest of my days."
Taken from the BBC natural history files.
The search for the unicorn, and proof of its existance, dates back
almost as far as the legends which surround it. Ctesias spoke of the
unicorn in the court of Darius II, the King of Persia in 416 BC. Chinese
writings date back to 2800 BC. The men of the ancient world believed in
the existance of the unicorn, so the object of their searching was to find
it, and prove it existed. It wasn't until later in history that man
first sighted unicorn in the new forest in southern England. In the ninth century, Margoulies wrote, 'It is universally held that the unicorn is a
natural being and the desendant of a horse."
Even village women and children know the unicorn as a friendly animal. But this animal does not figure among the barnyard animals, it is not always easy to come across, it does not lend itself to zoological classification, nor is
it like the horse or bull, the wolf or deer. In such circumstances we may
be face to face with a unicorn and not know for sure that we are. We know
a certain animal with a mane is a horse and that a certain animal with
horns is a bull. The last sighting of a unicorn was on the yorkshire moors in 1998 by a long distance lorry driver on his way to the hull ferry terminal. He later reported; "I was suprised to see a white horse on the moors, they're normally always dark, but when I saw the horn I was completely bowled over. I pulled over to take a closer look and was able to walk right up to it, I held out my hand and it let me touch it, the clear eyes were haunting and the horn was like a pointed spiral, it seemed a very friendly animal but as I took my camera from my pocket it simply bolted and was gone in a flash, I'll never forget that moment for the rest of my days."
04 January 2006, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Karl 227
Excuse me Mister K
Taken from the BBC natural history files.
The search for the unicorn, and proof of its existance, dates back
almost as far as the legends which surround it. Ctesias spoke of the
unicorn in the court of Darius II, the King of Persia in 416 BC. Chinese
writings date back to 2800 BC. The men of the ancient world believed in
the existance of the unicorn, so the object of their searching was to find
it, and prove it existed. It wasn't until later in history that man
first sighted unicorn in the new forest in southern England. In the ninth century, Margoulies wrote, 'It is universally held that the unicorn is a
natural being and the desendant of a horse."
Even village women and children know the unicorn as a friendly animal. But this animal does not figure among the barnyard animals, it is not always easy to come across, it does not lend itself to zoological classification, nor is
it like the horse or bull, the wolf or deer. In such circumstances we may
be face to face with a unicorn and not know for sure that we are. We know
a certain animal with a mane is a horse and that a certain animal with
horns is a bull. The last sighting of a unicorn was on the yorkshire moors in 1998 by a long distance lorry driver on his way to the hull ferry terminal. He later reported; "I was suprised to see a white horse on the moors, they're normally always dark, but when I saw the horn I was completely bowled over. I pulled over to take a closer look and was able to walk right up to it, I held out my hand and it let me touch it, the clear eyes were haunting and the horn was like a pointed spiral, it seemed a very friendly animal but as I took my camera from my pocket it simply bolted and was gone in a flash, I'll never forget that moment for the rest of my days."
Taken from the BBC natural history files.
The search for the unicorn, and proof of its existance, dates back
almost as far as the legends which surround it. Ctesias spoke of the
unicorn in the court of Darius II, the King of Persia in 416 BC. Chinese
writings date back to 2800 BC. The men of the ancient world believed in
the existance of the unicorn, so the object of their searching was to find
it, and prove it existed. It wasn't until later in history that man
first sighted unicorn in the new forest in southern England. In the ninth century, Margoulies wrote, 'It is universally held that the unicorn is a
natural being and the desendant of a horse."
Even village women and children know the unicorn as a friendly animal. But this animal does not figure among the barnyard animals, it is not always easy to come across, it does not lend itself to zoological classification, nor is
it like the horse or bull, the wolf or deer. In such circumstances we may
be face to face with a unicorn and not know for sure that we are. We know
a certain animal with a mane is a horse and that a certain animal with
horns is a bull. The last sighting of a unicorn was on the yorkshire moors in 1998 by a long distance lorry driver on his way to the hull ferry terminal. He later reported; "I was suprised to see a white horse on the moors, they're normally always dark, but when I saw the horn I was completely bowled over. I pulled over to take a closer look and was able to walk right up to it, I held out my hand and it let me touch it, the clear eyes were haunting and the horn was like a pointed spiral, it seemed a very friendly animal but as I took my camera from my pocket it simply bolted and was gone in a flash, I'll never forget that moment for the rest of my days."
In the meantime http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicorn
04 January 2006, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by OllyK
I thought you said "you" had seen one?? Clicky to the above quote would be nice too
In the meantime http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicorn
In the meantime http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicorn
http:http://www.bbc.icantbelieveyouactual...foralink.co.uk
04 January 2006, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Sbradley
Wow. You really are a lightning wit.
And a skilled debater, too.
SB (resisting urge to make other comments ending in , or at least rhyming wth, "debater")
And a skilled debater, too.
SB (resisting urge to make other comments ending in , or at least rhyming wth, "debater")
I see you've now decided to actually answer my original question - proving that your original answer was a tad hasty
.I, Like you, am not convinced that you believe in God to explain all things "un-explainable". If you really think about it I'm sure you'll come back to the fact you've been conditioned to believe it. If you were brought up by a group of people who believed in the existence of Dog you would indeed believe that the Dog created all things and is responsible for un-expalined happenings
.Doesn't make you bad
.
04 January 2006, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by OllyK
I see it most with Christians, maybe as I am more exposed to them, and in particular Americans. Watch some of the home rennovation programs and such that are US based. When they see the house it's all "Thank you god" and not "Thank you fred for all your hard work". They are thanking god for providing them with the hard working souls that have sorted their **** pit out. I saw much the same thing with what was initially thought to be the saving of the miners. Thank you god and off to church. However when it turns out they were not saved, we don't see all these people in church going "god, you're a ***** fu*ker, why did you do this?", not they are off hitting the guy who broke the news and blaming the mining company. Know while I agree the mining company is where the anger should perhaps be aimed, I also thing the gratitude should be directed to the people that tried to save the miners and not god.
I think it boils down to the fact that most people are a tad on the shallow side, both atheists & religious. I *think* that somebody who is serious about their belief would never automatically assume that everything is the work of the big puppet player. "Oh, the water boils, tea time & thank you Gawd". Brrr...
If you look at all the atrocities committed in wars, crime, or the devastation in Tsunamia (
), it is very hard to believe in a "personal" God that is staging all this all of the time. I believe it was a Swedish priest that stated the tsunami was an act of God against homosexuals... you have to be a complete moron to say things like that 
I am an atheist, but I don't feel the need to put down religious people. If you read what SB wrote a few posts back, he states that part of his belief is the refusal to see everything as just a string of pointless coincidences. I refuse to believe that the string of pointless coincidences is some kind of "test" by God
Not just meant as a play of words BTW.So we both argue on the same basis, but reach a different conclusion.
That said, I do feel for the family of those miners. It must be a freakin' nightmare.
04 January 2006, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Karl 227
04 January 2006, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by OllyK
With her mate the pink elephant?
04 January 2006, 03:24 PM
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"The same goes with unicorns, faries and hobgoblins, so I don't believe in them either"
Olly K Do you realise a fairy just died because of that comment ???
Yve
Olly K Do you realise a fairy just died because of that comment ???
Yve
04 January 2006, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by RedFive
I do see your point entirely. First of all and slightly off topic, the misunderstanding about the survivors/victims apparently alledgely was because of intercepted comms between the rescue team "downstairs" and the guys at the surface. This was then immediately aired on CNN. To me, that would say more about the craziness of "instant news" than it would on religion.
I think it boils down to the fact that most people are a tad on the shallow side, both atheists & religious. I *think* that somebody who is serious about their belief would never automatically assume that everything is the work of the big puppet player. "Oh, the water boils, tea time & thank you Gawd". Brrr...
If you look at all the atrocities committed in wars, crime, or the devastation in Tsunamia ( ), it is very hard to believe in a "personal" God that is staging all this all of the time.
), it is very hard to believe in a "personal" God that is staging all this all of the time.
I believe it was a Swedish priest that stated the tsunami was an act of God against homosexuals... you have to be a complete moron to say things like that
I am an atheist, but I don't feel the need to put down religious people. If you read what SB wrote a few posts back, he states that part of his belief is the refusal to see everything as just a string of pointless coincidences. I refuse to believe that the string of pointless coincidences is some kind of "test" by God Not just meant as a play of words BTW.
Not just meant as a play of words BTW.
That said, I do feel for the family of those miners. It must be a freakin' nightmare.
04 January 2006, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Apparition
"The same goes with unicorns, faries and hobgoblins, so I don't believe in them either"
Olly K Do you realise a fairy just died because of that comment ???
Yve
Olly K Do you realise a fairy just died because of that comment ???
Yve
04 January 2006, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Reality
I asked why you believed in God and you called me a pillock.
I see you've now decided to actually answer my original question - proving that your original answer was a tad hasty.
I, Like you, am not convinced that you believe in God to explain all things "un-explainable". If you really think about it I'm sure you'll come back to the fact you've been conditioned to believe it. If you were brought up by a group of people who believed in the existence of Dog you would indeed believe that the Dog created all things and is responsible for un-expalined happenings.
Doesn't make you bad.
I see you've now decided to actually answer my original question - proving that your original answer was a tad hasty
.I, Like you, am not convinced that you believe in God to explain all things "un-explainable". If you really think about it I'm sure you'll come back to the fact you've been conditioned to believe it. If you were brought up by a group of people who believed in the existence of Dog you would indeed believe that the Dog created all things and is responsible for un-expalined happenings
.Doesn't make you bad
.Neither of my parents are religious in any way. My father is so devout an atheist as to make it almost a faith in itself, but that's another matter entirely. I went to a non denominational school, dropped RE as soon as I could and didn't go to church, except for Remembrance Sunday, until fairly recently. The remembrance thing had more to do with my previous occupation and duty than anything else .
Then something changed. As I said, I'm not sure I can explain it. But it's not conditioning, environment or anything else. I'm also not a great believer in The Church or organised religion at all. That makes not one iota of difference to my faith and belief in God, though.
SB
PS Your lack of faith doesn't make you bad either, but your spurious arguments give a poor impression
04 January 2006, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Sbradley
Actually you made a totally vacuous comment about "meeting God" and I called you a pillock. A subtle but important difference
Neither of my parents are religious in any way. My father is so devout an atheist as to make it almost a faith in itself, but that's another matter entirely. I went to a non denominational school, dropped RE as soon as I could and didn't go to church, except for Remembrance Sunday, until fairly recently. The remembrance thing had more to do with my previous occupation and duty than anything else .
Then something changed. As I said, I'm not sure I can explain it. But it's not conditioning, environment or anything else. I'm also not a great believer in The Church or organised religion at all. That makes not one iota of difference to my faith and belief in God, though.
SB
PS Your lack of faith doesn't make you bad either, but your spurious arguments give a poor impression
Neither of my parents are religious in any way. My father is so devout an atheist as to make it almost a faith in itself, but that's another matter entirely. I went to a non denominational school, dropped RE as soon as I could and didn't go to church, except for Remembrance Sunday, until fairly recently. The remembrance thing had more to do with my previous occupation and duty than anything else .
Then something changed. As I said, I'm not sure I can explain it. But it's not conditioning, environment or anything else. I'm also not a great believer in The Church or organised religion at all. That makes not one iota of difference to my faith and belief in God, though.
SB
PS Your lack of faith doesn't make you bad either, but your spurious arguments give a poor impression
04 January 2006, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Sbradley
Then something changed. As I said, I'm not sure I can explain it.
Last edited by RedFive; 04 January 2006 at 03:53 PM.
04 January 2006, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by OllyK
That certainly created an awful situation for the families
Mourning is about yourself though, not about the dead. Six Feet Under comes to mind
And I think you might agree that the dividing line between bigots/non bigots is not necessarily a religious one. NSR is enough proof of that
04 January 2006, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Sbradley
Actually you made a totally vacuous comment about "meeting God" and I called you a pillock. A subtle but important difference
Then something changed. As I said, I'm not sure I can explain it. But it's not conditioning, environment or anything else. I'm also not a great believer in The Church or organised religion at all. That makes not one iota of difference to my faith and belief in God, though.
SB
PS Your lack of faith doesn't make you bad either, but your spurious arguments give a poor impression
Then something changed. As I said, I'm not sure I can explain it. But it's not conditioning, environment or anything else. I'm also not a great believer in The Church or organised religion at all. That makes not one iota of difference to my faith and belief in God, though.
SB
PS Your lack of faith doesn't make you bad either, but your spurious arguments give a poor impression
So you believe in God but you would consider anyone who had met him some sort of nutter - Like most people would (be they religous or not).
Why can't we meet God if he/she/it exists ?
Regards
The Pillock
PS The answer to my question is because he only exists in some people's heads !