ZEN Performance

Graham,

The rotational mass distibution is not "very different" it's vitually identical. I'm not sure where you can possibly get the idea they can be so different, remembering that the input and output shafts are the same distance apart. In fact the PPG gears may be lighter as they are relieved in areas that the stock gears are not.

Bob,

While you do have OE forks I think it's worth pointing out that your symptoms are not the same. In my opinion you have an unrealistic expectation of how the 1st gear engagement should behave, having driven many many Imprezas with standard boxes, aswell as your own car, the 1st gear change is par for the course. And while we are talking about 1st gear, it's worth pointing out that yours is not made by PPG. I am hopeful that a different oil will clean up any problems with the 3rd gear. It's a shame that it took 3 months for me to find out you even had a problem, after reading it on here. I offered a change of gear oil totally FOC weeks and weeks ago, which you have only just taken up, surely your issues can't be that bad!

AlanG

I am beginning to wonder if the steel forks are having an effect on the gearchange. While you would naturally assume it has no part to play. There is a noticable difference in the design, critically, in the way it holds the syncho hub (the bit that slides and loads up the baulk ring aswell as engage the gear). The stock fork holds the hub in 2 places with plastic wear pads that allow a little give.

I suspect the hub is over constrained by the fork, and without perfect alignment is not giving an even pressure onto the baulk ring.

Hi Paul
With what you're saying there, do you think this may be the case in my circumstance, cause the 3rd to 4th gearchange doesn't always crunch even though the oil is hot?

AlanG

I offered a change of gear oil totally FOC
Can i have some too?

ZEN Performance

You've already got some! My offer to bob was before your problems surfaced, so I'm not so sure how it will pan out (also included our time FOC). It may be worth experimenting with a non or semi synthetic oil for the sake of testing shift quality.

As to the fork issue, it has to have an effect, I may get some prototype parts made. Of course on a dog box, it doesn't matter whatsoever.

Paul

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

Paul,

Expecting 1st to engage before a virtual standstill is not a unrealistic expectation imo.

I was reluctant to tell you of the problem, possibly in part due to the problems building the box the 1st time round and my lack of confidence that it could be resolved. I've learnt to put up with the issues off-season as I only do about 200miles a week.

Hopefully you can have a look at it tomorrow and we'll take it from there.


Cheers,

Bob

David_Wallis

Id just like to add before this goes ott..

I didnt but my gearkit from paul (it was S/Hand)

Alan, the only reason I am a little concerned is that I drove stevens, and I dont actually like whinging about other peoples 'toys' 'possessions' etc, but Its was erm, bad, to drive

It's not fair for me to really discuss this yet, as Ive yet to sit down and discuss the issues with steven.

David

911

I think this is a reasonable discussion between sensible people ( I accept I may be the exception) and can only help us understand the issues of a bullet proof box in a 5 speed.
I do not in any way see this as a knock at PPG, just allowing issues to be aired and some options explored.
Graham.

Danny Boy

iTrader: (2)

Exactly Graham, i would also like to point out this is also in no way a knock at Paul either.
I understand that we are using fairly new products here and there will always be some teething issues. Especially when you are trying to engineer a product that exceeds OE quality and strength on a fraction of the OE R&D budget, and obviously with a number of less than ideal constraints left over from the original design that was perfectly fit for its intended purpose.


David, if im up at scoobyshootout you can have a drive of mine and compare if you like, to be honest i really didnt think there was much difference at all in the shify quality between the PPG box and the OE 5MT. Certanly nothing that would cause me to think it was 'bad' to drive. It definalty has a notchy feel to the gear shift but that has been a characteristic of all the 5MT's i have driven.

Dan.

David_Wallis

Danny,

Depends on your driving style, myself and steven have a very similar driving style, its called flat out wherever the speed limit permits

Sorry, its not 'BAD' to drive, Just shocked me a little, It could be that the box needs bedding in though...

Gotta go, my lift is here.

David

AlanG

The gearbox discussion on this thread does seem to look a little like a PPG bashing exercise, but from my experience with it so far, i can't fault the gearbox in any way, except for this synchro problem from 3rd to 4th when hot.
Taking away my issue, i find the gearchanging to be identical to any other 5 speed i've had in the car, so can't relate to what others are experiencing.

With that in mind i don't understand what BOB'5 and Davids concerns are with theirs, or in the case of David, Steven's.

I've obviously read what David wrote previously wrongly. It looked like you had bought a kit (i didn't know where from, but that doesn't matter) one day, then the following day you hated it, without a reason given!

ZEN Performance

i can't resolve what I don't know about.

Alan informed me of his problem as soon as he discovered it. Although Alan is in a different position, as I supplied and fitted everything, so he has comeback directly to me. I have been stumpted so far, with the nature and inconsistancy of his problem, it's definitely down to a lack of grip between gear and baulk ring, but I can't be sure why that would be.

I am keen to see how bad it is, with the original dead synchro it wasn't an acceptable change into first, and crunched a little. However our initial testing after the new 1st gear sychro was fitted, allowed a perfectly acceptable gearchange into 1st at just below 20mph, that was with cool box oil though, so maybe things have changed with use.

I don't really use first gear unless already at a virtual standstill, I am still unsure why you need 1st any other time.

Paul

AlanG

For road use i don't see why you would be bothered about not getting into 1st before stopping either. The original boxes i've had over the years all did the same thing!!

Competition might be different though, especially in a hillclimb type competition with tight bends where 2nd drops the car out of its' power band and so loses time, whereas 1st would give you that instant punch out of the bend.

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

Different people have different driving styles. Personally I like to use the box to slow down and be in at least some decent revs in order to go if needed (ie pulling upto a quite roundabout).

I'll be down at yours in a couple of hours Paul to see if we can hopefully resolve the issue.


Regards,

Bob

911

This vid clip is in my car last year with a stock Sti v3 box which it still has, as i come into this tight bend i drop into 1st just as the rear wheel drops back to the ground:
http://www.dropshots.com/daymainfram...0030102&cimg=2

I don't know if that is 20mph or not, but i would need the PPG to do this as well as the stock box. you can just 'see' the change from max rpm (8000) in first to second just infront of the marshals.
Graham

Paul: we are all on your side!

ZEN Performance

New oil, as yet only tried in my dog box went into Bob's box today, initial tests are positive. My testing of 1st gear synchro concluded that on the old oil, crunching could happen at around 25mph, but was okay at 20mph. The new oil, which wasn't as hot, would crunch intermittantly at around 28mph, but the crunching was much gentler. 2nd to 3rd crunch gone so far.

I have a few more things to try, it would be good to have an alternative to the Redline.

Paul

David_Wallis

Alan, my issues are having driven a car for less than 5 mins, so Id say they are worth discounting until the 'owner' can comment and offer their input.

Ive yet to hear mikee or pat complain so I guess there is no issue with the kits, as AFAIK they both have in excess of 10k mikes on the ppg kits. And I have heard not 1 bad word about ppg kits

Please anyone reading this dont take this as a bash ppg, or zen exercise as it isnt.

David

ZEN Performance

you may exercise zen at any time....

Fuzz

Has anyone used Castrol driveline (syntrax) yet....
Never seen a problem with that.
but a lot of whinging over the years with regard to redline...

Andy

Danny Boy

iTrader: (2)

Andy, thats what's in mine at the moment.

David_Wallis

LOL @ Paul..

Alan,

Ive bought a kit and will be using it as its the only syncro kit I am prepared to use in the car. (and the only one I think will survive!)

Im not bashing the PPG kits as the syncro's are nothing to do with the kit.. I think its down to more problems with the oil, revs and power on the syncro's

I presume these are all late boxes with the three piece syncro on third?

David

AlanG

Hi David
I didn't think you were bashing the PPG kit and i don't think anyone else is really.
The problems we're experiencing seem to be synchro related than gear related or in my case it may be a fork problem.

My box is an early casing David with later larger synchros for 3rd/4th.

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

The new oil seems to eradicated the 2nd to 3rd crunch.

I may just have to live with not being able to downshift to 1st at high RPM. I will post up what revs it does/doesnt go into first. Bear in mind that I'm using PAR 1st and 2nd not PPG.

Oil feels a little sticky when absolutely cold on the first few gearchanges but after that its nice.

Cheers Paul.

Danny Boy

iTrader: (2)

What Oil is it Bob?

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

Millers CRX 80W140

NB NOT the BM version!

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

WOW, only just read this, and i have to say, David never really conveyed his opinion to me as we have not had chance to speak in the last weak until today.

I drove, and quite frankly, abused the living hell out of a 5 speed PAR/PPG syncro box last year, and it was fine, EVERY TIME. So much so, i was glad i had changed to one of virtually the same spec. (centre diff was the only difference).

That box used Redline HWSP, against some peoples advice, but based on mine, as i have never had a single problem using it in all the gearboxes i have had. Barring, the notchiness when cold.

For my own box, i was convinced (cant remember by who) that i should use the LWSP instead, so that is what i did.

In the brief period i have actually used the box, i personally have found the only problem to be getting it into 1st gear when stationary.

It has felt a little notchy on the odd occassion but nothing noticbly annoying. The thing i had said i would do, is drop the oil and replace it with RHWSP.

As David has said, i do drive fairly hard, last night when out testing the launch control, i ripped the gear linkage straight out on the 2nd to 3rd change.

All the above is fairly irrelevant now, having just smashed 2nd gear to pieces. Note, it was a PAR 2nd gear.

One things for sure, it will be rebuilt with a PPG kit, and most likely run RHWSP or the Millers as per above.

The PPG is THE gearbox i have ever used on a Subaru.

Steven

David_Wallis

think steven forgot the word 'best'

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

yep

DesR

Hi

Some info off the PPG site in case this has any relevance???

1994-current 5 speed WRX Owners take note.
Subaru Gearboxes have an unusual variation in the manufacture of 1st and 2nd gear and 3rd and 4th gear on a different year that can cause problems when fitting gearsets. Its therefore very inportant you know what year gearbox you have in your car. This has become difficult at times as most Subaru owners are now buying a PPG gearset after breaking a few standard gearboxes and they may have replaced the gearbox with an entire gearbox from a different year model vehicle.

Please note the information below before ordering.
MY 94,95,96 up to 6/97 Gearboxes have single synchro 1st and 2nd gear up to 7/95
Single synchro 1st , Double synchro 2nd on 8/95 on
(must update to 8/95 double synchro 2nd gear !)
Single synchro 3rd and 4th gear to 7/95

MY 97,98 (7/97 to 7/98) Gearboxes have single synchro 1st , double on 2nd, 3rd and single on 4th.
PPG 1-2 sets are a straight C/over . The 3 and 4th sets require a 4th gear synchro ring to be used on 3rd gear which we convert to single synchro.

MY99 on (8/98 on) have singls synchro 1st, double synchro 2nd, double on 3rd and single on 4th. 3rd and 4th synchro's are different to the pre-98 boxes and cant be used.
OUr 1-2 sets are a straight fit , but same as the pre-98 sets we now convert 3rd to a single synchro and it must use a 4th gear synchro ring of post '98 type.

Hope this helps

Cheers

911

Nice and simple then.

Good that a supplier takes the time to get this kind of info out-and-about.

good on them.

Graham

ZEN Performance

Not all the info, there are yet more combinations to be had! There are two variations of 97-98 gearbox too!