Rolling Road Day. TEG Sport. 28 January.
29 January 2006, 09:22 PM
#212
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Just remember rolling roads impose loads on the engine unlike anything they will see on the road, the ecu's may react to this in many ways such as retarding timing, adding fuel etc.
Many people come away from a rolling road day thinking there is a problem with their car only to find that when tested ON THE ROAD that it is running well.
The standard Subaru AFR from the factory is approaching 10.0:1 at full load, whilst I agree with Steve it is not whats needed for maximum power, it's not something requiring immediate attention.
When I can take my car to 3 rolling roads run by 3 different operators and get the same power result..........I'll buy one !!
Andy
Many people come away from a rolling road day thinking there is a problem with their car only to find that when tested ON THE ROAD that it is running well.
The standard Subaru AFR from the factory is approaching 10.0:1 at full load, whilst I agree with Steve it is not whats needed for maximum power, it's not something requiring immediate attention.
When I can take my car to 3 rolling roads run by 3 different operators and get the same power result..........I'll buy one !!
Andy
Last edited by Andy.F; 29 January 2006 at 09:56 PM.
30 January 2006, 07:51 AM
#213
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Andy,
Agree that if you run the dyno in constant speed mode then you can load up the engine more than you would expect to see on the road.However this is how we map the individual load sites and should not be an issue on a mappable ECU. In "shoot-out" mode, for all the runs that were done on Saturday however , the dyno does a controlled ramp up that takes a shorter time than you would actually see on the road. This is why you sometimes get less boost on larger turbo cars - so your statement that the dyno was subjecting the cars to far higher loads than they would ever see on the road is inaccurate.
We had a fair cross section of good, bad and average results and from looking at boost curves, fuelling plots and occasional hints of "det" it was possible to give indications as to why the results were coming out the way they were. It was not an issue of the vagaries of a rolling road.Standard cars made expected standard results....but unfortunately some cars that owners had spent good money on did not perform, and in some cases were set up in a potentially damaging state.
You and I both know that you will not get three identical results from different rolling roads.If this is your criteria then your money is safe!But having mapped cars "on the road" for 7 years (Gulp!) I like to think I spent my money wisely.I would argue that,with the cooling system we have, I can replicate full load conditions, and hence optimise fuelling, ignition and now variable valve timing far more effectively than on the road.How can you tell when VVT is optimal without a torque read-out? Also, with current race fuels, some cars do not "det"...so how can you optimise ignition timing by going to "det" then back a little?
As to "our" accuracy...well I'm bound to say my expensive dyno is the best aren't I? We have made comparisons from Engine dyno runs on both Subaru and Mitsubishi GPN engines.Our N10 subaru made 279BHP on Mass engines dyno, and 282BHP when run in "shoot-out" on the rollers.....And as noted before, not everyone was dissapointed - maybe only the guys who hadn't had there cars done on the rollers...
Steve
Agree that if you run the dyno in constant speed mode then you can load up the engine more than you would expect to see on the road.However this is how we map the individual load sites and should not be an issue on a mappable ECU. In "shoot-out" mode, for all the runs that were done on Saturday however , the dyno does a controlled ramp up that takes a shorter time than you would actually see on the road. This is why you sometimes get less boost on larger turbo cars - so your statement that the dyno was subjecting the cars to far higher loads than they would ever see on the road is inaccurate.
We had a fair cross section of good, bad and average results and from looking at boost curves, fuelling plots and occasional hints of "det" it was possible to give indications as to why the results were coming out the way they were. It was not an issue of the vagaries of a rolling road.Standard cars made expected standard results....but unfortunately some cars that owners had spent good money on did not perform, and in some cases were set up in a potentially damaging state.
You and I both know that you will not get three identical results from different rolling roads.If this is your criteria then your money is safe!But having mapped cars "on the road" for 7 years (Gulp!) I like to think I spent my money wisely.I would argue that,with the cooling system we have, I can replicate full load conditions, and hence optimise fuelling, ignition and now variable valve timing far more effectively than on the road.How can you tell when VVT is optimal without a torque read-out? Also, with current race fuels, some cars do not "det"...so how can you optimise ignition timing by going to "det" then back a little?
As to "our" accuracy...well I'm bound to say my expensive dyno is the best aren't I? We have made comparisons from Engine dyno runs on both Subaru and Mitsubishi GPN engines.Our N10 subaru made 279BHP on Mass engines dyno, and 282BHP when run in "shoot-out" on the rollers.....And as noted before, not everyone was dissapointed - maybe only the guys who hadn't had there cars done on the rollers...
Steve
30 January 2006, 09:17 AM
#214
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: North East Subaru Forum
Posts: 3,920
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if that is true about the load Steve why do you think some of the cars were detting on the RR but never show a hint of it on the road?
there were 3 cars that i know quite well never det on the road but lit up the knocklinks when doing the power run.
there were 3 cars that i know quite well never det on the road but lit up the knocklinks when doing the power run.
30 January 2006, 09:24 AM
#215
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Steve
Road to Rollers loading is like night and day. On the road, as the engine comes to peak torque it quickly accelerates through that area (on the rollers it is held back) on the road when the power starts to fall off at high revs the driver usually changes up a gear (on the rollers it is held to the limiter) Just 2 of the many differences.
One car which was run on sat was detting on the rollers, this was a car I had done an ECU install/tune on some 18 months ago which has run great all that time. He was informed on the day that he needed a remap
As I was in the area this weekend I had a check over the car ON THE ROAD and it was running spot on, not a hint of det on the cans or knocklink with the driver 'giving it everything'
How would you explain that if all that matters is that your loading (thermal included presumably) is lower ?
With regard to AVCS tuning, the torque produced is directly proportional to the rate of rise of engine rpm, if the revs lift quicker then you have more torque, simple task for the laptop ! I don't need numbers detailing the absolute values, I only need to know I have got the best from any particular set up under real live conditions.
I agree that if you want a big number to talk about then get your car tuned on the rollers as it will be tuned to push a roller against a brake. If you want a quick car on the road then tune it on the road.
At least thats my explanation for how some of the UK's fastest 1/4 mile cars have made it there without being RR tuned.
I am talking about std 2.0 internals cars here, not my race car which incidentally also has not been roller tuned.
Andy
Road to Rollers loading is like night and day. On the road, as the engine comes to peak torque it quickly accelerates through that area (on the rollers it is held back) on the road when the power starts to fall off at high revs the driver usually changes up a gear (on the rollers it is held to the limiter) Just 2 of the many differences.
One car which was run on sat was detting on the rollers, this was a car I had done an ECU install/tune on some 18 months ago which has run great all that time. He was informed on the day that he needed a remap
As I was in the area this weekend I had a check over the car ON THE ROAD and it was running spot on, not a hint of det on the cans or knocklink with the driver 'giving it everything' How would you explain that if all that matters is that your loading (thermal included presumably) is lower ?
With regard to AVCS tuning, the torque produced is directly proportional to the rate of rise of engine rpm, if the revs lift quicker then you have more torque, simple task for the laptop ! I don't need numbers detailing the absolute values, I only need to know I have got the best from any particular set up under real live conditions.
I agree that if you want a big number to talk about then get your car tuned on the rollers as it will be tuned to push a roller against a brake. If you want a quick car on the road then tune it on the road.
At least thats my explanation for how some of the UK's fastest 1/4 mile cars have made it there without being RR tuned.
I am talking about std 2.0 internals cars here, not my race car which incidentally also has not been roller tuned.
Andy
Last edited by Andy.F; 30 January 2006 at 09:26 AM.
30 January 2006, 10:09 AM
#217
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Would like to thank Harvey and everyone who organised the day.
With respect to my results, 94 wrx twin scroll, I was please with the way the car runs, and the turbo. I got 1 bar at 3000 rpm and full boost at 3600 rpm. But had problems with the boost setup and serge which resulted in loss of torque. The boost fell off badly to 1.1 bar at the top end result in a drop in 20 hp.
I took the wastegate off yesterday and made a shim, and now it will hold in excess of 1.5 bar to the red line. I just need to remap the boost to avoid serge and I will be ready for the next rolling road day.
I was a bit pi**ed that the guy from the magazine didnt even see my car (expecially after all the hard work that myself and Paul Stabler had put into this install) and when I spoke with him, he said he had all the pics he needed.
Thanks again
Mark.
With respect to my results, 94 wrx twin scroll, I was please with the way the car runs, and the turbo. I got 1 bar at 3000 rpm and full boost at 3600 rpm. But had problems with the boost setup and serge which resulted in loss of torque. The boost fell off badly to 1.1 bar at the top end result in a drop in 20 hp.
I took the wastegate off yesterday and made a shim, and now it will hold in excess of 1.5 bar to the red line. I just need to remap the boost to avoid serge and I will be ready for the next rolling road day.
I was a bit pi**ed that the guy from the magazine didnt even see my car (expecially after all the hard work that myself and Paul Stabler had put into this install) and when I spoke with him, he said he had all the pics he needed.
Thanks again
Mark.
30 January 2006, 08:27 PM
#218
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Andy.F
Many people come away from a rolling road day thinking there is a problem with their car only to find that when tested ON THE ROAD that it is running well.
Andy
Andy
Andy, I hope you don't think I came away thinking my car is ****e, it isn't, it is Superb
Just needs 400/400 would i get this with TD05 20 and 2.5 bottom end?
30 January 2006, 10:22 PM
#220
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Andy,
Tell you what.....here's the offer of a lifetime.You bring any car you want down to my rollers and you can have as long as you like FOC to improve the numbers.If you can't better the results I'll pay you the dyno time.
Steve
Tell you what.....here's the offer of a lifetime.You bring any car you want down to my rollers and you can have as long as you like FOC to improve the numbers.If you can't better the results I'll pay you the dyno time.
Steve
30 January 2006, 10:37 PM
#221
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: P1 0790, Durham TTS
Posts: 952
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
can I see some pics of your boost graphs please. Just want to know what it should look like.
thanks.
thanks.
Last edited by PhilA; 30 January 2006 at 11:02 PM.
30 January 2006, 11:13 PM
#227
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by steve rally
Andy,
Tell you what.....here's the offer of a lifetime.You bring any car you want down to my rollers and you can have as long as you like FOC to improve the numbers.If you can't better the results I'll pay you the dyno time.
Steve
Tell you what.....here's the offer of a lifetime.You bring any car you want down to my rollers and you can have as long as you like FOC to improve the numbers.If you can't better the results I'll pay you the dyno time.
Steve
but......... I don't want roller numbers, I think maybe you missed my point ?Andy
31 January 2006, 06:50 AM
#228
Take up the offer Andy and fit my Apexi Power FC please as I have swapped it for my Link to cater for future developments.
All a bit sudden like in the last few hours.
Could get an RR figure, also show the power gain from the Link to PFC and then the gains to be had/changes to be made on road against clock or G-Tech Comp Pro Performance meter etc. A challenge.!!!
I know exactly the point you are making but the rollers are a safe way (and fairly quick) to get the map to nearly where you want to be with final fine tuning on the road, especially from a competely new start or do you not think so.
FWIW, in terms of facility and operation of the rollers, the only two places that really impress me are Dastek AND TEG/Steve Simpson.
All a bit sudden like in the last few hours.
Could get an RR figure, also show the power gain from the Link to PFC and then the gains to be had/changes to be made on road against clock or G-Tech Comp Pro Performance meter etc. A challenge.!!!
I know exactly the point you are making but the rollers are a safe way (and fairly quick) to get the map to nearly where you want to be with final fine tuning on the road, especially from a competely new start or do you not think so.
FWIW, in terms of facility and operation of the rollers, the only two places that really impress me are Dastek AND TEG/Steve Simpson.
Last edited by harvey; 31 January 2006 at 06:53 AM.
31 January 2006, 09:46 AM
#229
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: North East Subaru Forum
Posts: 3,920
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by PhilA
need something close to my scoob.
Is this boost graph normal or is this a spike at 3K rpm?
Is this boost graph normal or is this a spike at 3K rpm?
fitting a dawes/GBE boost controller will sort that out and will be a cheap fix
31 January 2006, 11:24 AM
#230
Scooby Newbie
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wind Tunnel ?
I'm a bit confused with the line of thought put forward by Andy F, of Rolling Roads are no good as you don't drive on a rolling road......
Formula 1 cars are not driven in Wind Tunnels - but that doesn't stop the Teams like McLaren investing Millions in one, does it ?
H.
Formula 1 cars are not driven in Wind Tunnels - but that doesn't stop the Teams like McLaren investing Millions in one, does it ?
H.
31 January 2006, 11:28 AM
#231
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Johnny - Thats typical of what happens when you put a car on the rollers, it either spikes and/or fails to hit target.
Harvey - I agree that if starting from scratch then the rollers provide a good base to start from however, personally having tuned over 200 Imprezas in the last year alone, I have plenty bases to start from !
Andy
Harvey - I agree that if starting from scratch then the rollers provide a good base to start from however, personally having tuned over 200 Imprezas in the last year alone, I have plenty bases to start from !
Andy
31 January 2006, 11:36 AM
#232
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Helen - I never said rolling roads are no good. They are good, as Harvey states they are ideal for base mapping and/or fault finding in certain circumstances.
My point on this thread was that if a car runs fine on the road but shows a problem on the rolling road.....is it really a problem ? I am suggesting that it may not be as the conditions on the rollers differ from the road.
My point on this thread was that if a car runs fine on the road but shows a problem on the rolling road.....is it really a problem ? I am suggesting that it may not be as the conditions on the rollers differ from the road.
31 January 2006, 11:44 AM
#233
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Would you say there was more to be gained if mapped on the road Andy?
(After mapping on rollers)
I'm thinking about the reference to detting on the rollers but not seen on the road.
(After mapping on rollers)
I'm thinking about the reference to detting on the rollers but not seen on the road.
31 January 2006, 11:52 AM
#234
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Possibly Alan, it will vary from car to car depending on how close the roller conditions are to the actual road loadings (thermal and brake)
TMIC cars in particular are notorious for detting on the rollers.
TMIC cars in particular are notorious for detting on the rollers.
31 January 2006, 12:51 PM
#237
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: P1 0790, Durham TTS
Posts: 952
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yeah teg used cold air feed.
jonny:
I'm running a standard setup with PPP ECU but the normal MY99 restrictor olive. Not sure if this is affecting boost or not? What else could be wrong?
jonny:
I'm running a standard setup with PPP ECU but the normal MY99 restrictor olive. Not sure if this is affecting boost or not? What else could be wrong?
31 January 2006, 09:20 PM
#238
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: North East Subaru Forum
Posts: 3,920
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by PhilA
jonny:
I'm running a standard setup with PPP ECU but the normal MY99 restrictor olive. Not sure if this is affecting boost or not? What else could be wrong?
I'm running a standard setup with PPP ECU but the normal MY99 restrictor olive. Not sure if this is affecting boost or not? What else could be wrong?
does the boost spike and dip on the road or was this as Andy said only evident on the RR graph?
31 January 2006, 10:25 PM
#240
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: P1 0790, Durham TTS
Posts: 952
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not sure as I don't have my boost guage on yet. certainly feels like it sometimes.
So do you think it is a boost spike due to my full decat and standard restrictor?
I could really do with a boost graph to compare with. Anyone?
So do you think it is a boost spike due to my full decat and standard restrictor?
I could really do with a boost graph to compare with. Anyone?
Last edited by PhilA; 31 January 2006 at 11:33 PM.