HOWY

Here is the relevant bit of advice from trading standards
The following is an extract from the http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/ web site

strikes me someone is going to have to take a supplier or possibly IM to court

to resolve this one!



What legal protection do I get with warranties and guarantees?

As both are contracts, warranties and guarantees give you the right to make a legal claim against the person issuing them (guarantees are contracts because the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002 say that they are). This means that if the manufacturer refuses to honour the warranty or guarantee, you can take them to court to force them to meet their promises. For example, if the company that issued the warranty will not carry out a repair within a reasonable time when the guarantee says it will, you could sue for the cost of employing someone else to put the problem right. You need to follow certain procedures before you do this, see 'Services - how to solve your problems' leaflet. However, it is important to remember that both warranties and guarantees are in addition to your statutory rights under either the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) or the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 (as amended). If you have problems with goods or services, it is best to go back to the company from which you bought them, as the law considers them to be responsible for any problems under their contract with you. See our leaflets on 'Buying goods' and 'Buying services' for more information on your rights under contract law.

ape250

great point made by firewire, in simple terms it like buying a product from the carephone warehouse and taking it dixons for repair foc. As for the dealer situation would you in your professional capacity whatever it is, carry out work for a person, having a good idea that you would not get paid for said work. The answer is probably not.

I do not like to see people not getting what they paid for, but the first line in many of these post are "we went to ******** and paid £5000.00 less", well the saying that springs to mind is " Things that are to good to true, normally are". One of the reasons for the price differences is the warranty side of things, and yes i still agree that the I.M product is still to expensive, but we live in a capitilist culture,so everyone is allowed to make a fair profit, and that also includes dealers, who are put down at every turn, but yet are the first people you take your pride and joy to if it lets you down. If you have bought an import how apart from service work once a year are you supporting there business.

Rant over, it comes down to you pays your money, you take your choice.

Chris L

Howy's quote really shows that the fault will still lie with Motorpoint. You can't sue IM for something they did not provide. The question here is what Motorpoint promised and what they actually delivered. People are entitled to shop around for the best deal, but that does not mean they should be taken advantge of. The best bet here is the possible infringement of your statutory rights and not the infringement of a warranty offered by IM, as in this case, they never provided one in the first place.

st3ph3n

Look at it this way perhaps - When you buy a car from a local Subaru dealership.
You buy the car from them as authorised dealers for Subaru UK (IM), the authorised representative of Subaru in the UK.
Now look at it from the other way - When you buy a car from a Supermarket.
You buy the car from the Supermarket in the UK, who are it authorised dealers for Subaru Malta (Liaco) who are the authorised representative of Subaru in Malta.

Is there a difference in the two scenarios? As we are all in the EU, then as far as I can see no.

Now where the Warranty comes in - all LEGITIMATELY PURCHASED Subaru cars in the EU are covered by a 3 year PAN EUROPEAN WARRANTY. That's fact.

A number of people ask why IM should honour the warranty claims, but I think they are missing the point. It's not IM who would be paying for the work, it would be Liaco as providers of the warranty who would pay for it. It's not fair to ask IM to honour the warranty of a car they didn't supply, but then I do not think they are being asked that.

My understanding of the Pan European warranty would be an agreement whereby a dealer in one country was able to do authorised warranty repair work and know they would be re-imbursed for their labour and parts by whichever country sold the car.

So we come down to the killer question - Was the car purchased legitimately in the EU?

As far as I can see this is not for IM to decide as they were not the people who sold the car, that was Subaru Malta (Liaco). So if Liaco (not Motorpoint or whoever) say that yes the car is legitimate then surely the dealers in the UK have no choice but to honour the Pan European warranty.

If IM inform them of anything to the contrary they are being obstructive.

My car will be due a service in the next few months. I look forward to finding out if I am good to go or not.

Stephen.

wrxseeker

iTrader: (1)

100% Agree with you mate

ZippyLane

Me too.. spoke to MotorPoint today and they gave me an address to send off the forms.. watch this space eh..?

I appreciate your point of view, but if this were the case then we'd all buy everything we need from the first place we saw it, rather than seeing if someone else did it cheaper.. Like buying your tin of beans from Harrods when Tesco did them half price..now if no one on here has NEVER done this, then all credit to you.. as I've said, we shouldn't get slated for trying to get a good deal..

firewire

The thing here is that Motorpoint etc. are not officially appointed by Malta, they are just companies they sell cars to as such they are an unauthorised re-seller. The EU "business model" for vehicle distribution does not allow such a practice, as such the vehicles do not count as being parallel imports.
Because they are not pukka parallels they do not attract the usual benefits associated with a parallel, i.e. pan european warranty.
The way I see it is if it doesn't qualify as a parallel as defined under EU law then Subaru Malta can't legitimately say it is entitled to Pan European Warranty. Malta don't make the rules, like it or not the EU does.

What I suppose Malta can say is the vehicle has three year warranty which they will pay if owners send them the repair bills. This way it becomes a Subaru Malta warranty this they would be entitled to do just as your local Arther Daley site can put his own warranty on a car.
Somehow though I don't think Malta would want to do that.

gingerboy

Have a look at this link it may help as the person who started has been their and done that so to speak!!

http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=468334

Apologies if you have already had a look.

Paul

jacksdad

Reply from Subaru Malta :

Dear Mr. Killoh,

While thanking you for your communication and the information supplied, I would like to take this opportunity to confirm that your impression is in fact correct in that your vehicle which has originated from Subaru Malta is covered by a 3 Year Pan European warranty which is backed by the Manufacturer - Fuji Heavy Industries - Japan.

We have no official communication from IM - the Uk Distributor- regarding your concerns with vehicles emanating outside the UK however we are investigating any comments such as yours, and shall revert back with any useful information.

May you rest assured that Liaco Ltd (Subaru Malta) adheres to good business practice and in full conformity to EU Laws and Legislation.

In the interim, we suggest you put your mind at rest and enjoy the

Subaru Experience.

Kind regards,

Romain Galea (Dip. Mngt, M.I.M)

P & A Manager



Liaco Limited

Lia Buildings, Mosta Road, Lija BZN09 MALTA

TEL: (+356) 2141 8111 * FAX: (+356) 2141 8589

www.liaco.com.mt

Gary C

Maybe I am over suspicious but WRX54's tone seems a bit odd. Almost seems like a 'worry everyone so they don't buy from motor point !' mail. Lets face it, I am glad ATm that I got a new UK car.

Silver Knight

Its not the validity of the warranty thats in question, its how the car was sold to the end user in the UK!!! If it was personally imported from Malta then the warranty is valid.
If it was sold to Motorpoint with them as the importer then it will not be valid as they are not authorised to sell new Subaru's in the UK.

bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

So does that mean if I was to import a car from Malta, then sell the car on, the warranty isn't transferable to the new owner?

DonnieDarko

^^ i bought one from motorpoint and i want them to take it back, and as you say "don't buy from motor point !"

ZIPPY

The point being is Motorpoint are selling the car as new when its really in the eyes of Subaru/IM 2nd hand and is being sold as new from a non franchised dealer network (Motorpoint)

The claim has to be against Motorpoint as they are acting as the the supplying ' Dealer ' they should get you the authorisation from Subaru Malta who they must have an agreement with in order to buy the cars you then take the number to your dealer who passes it onto IM who claim back from Subaru Malta.

When i bought my old MY01 from Belgium it was registered with IM for warranty work but the authorisation had to come from Subaru Belgium for any work to be completed, yes it took slightly longer than the UK car route but it was always done.

DonnieDarko

personal imports appear to be fine. yes you could buy one, have the warranty, then sell it on (warranty intact) its different for unauthorised importers.

i guess it would change if you imported a load and sold them as "new"

in fact i think even if you bought one from malta direct, then sold it as "new" there would be a problem, as you would be infringing copyright (WTF??)

if you buy one, don't use it and sell it as second hand, bob's your father's brother, that's legal.

all together now... "WTF??"

HOWY

In reality the european warranties are honoured by the supplying dealer anyway (my letter from IM confirms that) so the issue relates to IM trying to block people making warranty claims through a normal subaru dealership probably on the grounds that if the car isn't registered on their system then the dealers won't touch it even though IM don't have to pay for the work. So th equestion is what will a dealer do if you take a car in and ask them contact Malta or cyprus direct to get approval?

What I suppose Malta can say is the vehicle has three year warranty which they will pay if owners send them the repair bills. This way it becomes a Subaru Malta warranty this they would be entitled to do just as your local Arther Daley site can put his own warranty on a car.
Somehow though I don't think Malta would want to do that.[/QUOTE]

HOWY

[QUOTE=ZIPPY]The point being is Motorpoint are selling the car as new when its really in the eyes of Subaru/IM 2nd hand and is being sold as new from a non franchised dealer network (Motorpoint)

Yes it might be second hand but surely a car that has a three year pan european warranty should still have one unless it only relates to the first purchasor. After all what is to stop someone buying a car in cyprus then selling it to someone else who happens to live in the UK surely the warranty would still be valid.

And what would happen if somone bought a UK car and sold it to someone in cyprus would IM still honour their pan european warranty??????

DonnieDarko

^^ but they sold it as "NEW". if they did everything as they do now but sell teh cars as "Nearly new, 14 miles on clock" i *think* that would satisfy the law.

so near, but yet so far... i can almost smell my warranty

Jza

Can i add my 10ps worth?

IM will, like many insurance firms (the warrenty is in effect a form of insurance ) do, attempt to wiggle out of paying anything IMHO. You have undercut their dealers by £4k odd... so they have to try and make it seem like a bad idea otherwise we'd never buy british!

Just because they say they don't have to pay, doesnt mean they actually dont.

For every 10 customers they try it on with, if only 1 goes away with their tail between their legs... they will have saved thousands.

Get the facts right (seems Malta scooby letter is a start) then start threatening legal action.

Dont let Motorpoint pay (if they shouldn't need to as IM should).. make IM sort it !

Jza

st3ph3n

Can I just add Jza it's not IM's job to "sort it". It's IM's job to not be obstructive and to pass the request for a warranty claim to Liaco. But your general jist is good

To clarify my situation - car bought in December from Motorpoint. Warranty book arrived circa 1 month later with my details in it. Also included was a sales invoice from Liaco made out to me at my address, minus the amounts of course. No where on that documentation does it mention Motorpoint. I registered the car later with IM by sending them a fax with the aforementioned sales invoice and a letter, again not mentioning motorpoint, nor even where I got it at all. I received the letter back from IM saying everything was 100% great. With the usual caveat of IM doesn't do the work, it only acts as a go between with the dealer and Liaco.

So has something changed in this process recently that is causing the problem? Or has the problem always existed but only for people who specificly mention they bought it from Motorpoint or Alliance etc.

Also as far as Motorpoint being unauthorized - would Liaco send out official warranty booklets and sales invoices or even get involved if they were unauthorized imports? Hell no.

firewire

Warranty from manufacturers is not an insurance. Things like AA,RAC and Car Care plan are insurance backed. The cost of providing a warranty on a new car is a direct cost on the manufacturer and not fed back to an insurer, but at the end of the day us consumers pay the warranty anyway cos it is built into the cost of the car.

As for "make IM sort it" why should they. As someone has posted before you wouldn't buy a Television from Dixons and then expect Comet to sort out any problems you have with it. Get real.

firewire

What has changed is IM has wised up to the fact that under the BER regulations what Liaco is doing is unlawful.

With regard to - "would Liaco send out official warranty booklets and sales invoices or even get involved if they were unauthorized imports? Hell no"

In your own post you have highlighted exactly what Liaco is doing that is unlawful.

They sell a car to Motorpoint who sell it to you.

Liaco then send you an "invoice" to try and indicate that you bought direct from them. If what they were doing were totally lawful and authorised why do they have to send you a fake invoice?

Answer, because Motorpoint etc are not authorised sellers, and for Malta to sell direct to them is unlawful so they create a fake invoice to try and dupe people into thinking that they sold direct to you.

I wonder if the Maltese tax authorities are aware of this double invoicing?

Sorry guys but like it or not that is FRAUD.

My guess is that if IM had wised up to this sooner your car would not have got registered by them for warranty. Guess you were one of the lucky ones.

firewire

What was the jist of your letter to them? Have you had your warranty kicked out by IM?

st3ph3n

Firewire, I see your point mate. When I say unauthorized imports I mean cars imported by Motorpoint without the acknowledgement of Liaco. Which clealry isn't the case. Liaco appears to have authorized them to sell the cars or to act as an agent to sell the cars.

Now when you say it could be fraud - then you could well be right. Assuming that Motorpoint aren't simply acting as agents. Which admittedly they don't appear to be. It was certainly not explained to me in that manner.

If there are guilty parties involved then they should all be dealt with appropriately. Who is or isn't guilty of what, if anything, can only be decided if ALL the facts are known. Which I'm sure you'd agree aren't 100% clear.

As you and I have both told people - It's liaco who honours the warranty not IM.

What is reasurring is that in any correspondence from Liaco they have at no point shirked their responsibility to the customer. So should IM rightly take nothing to do with these cars, assuming they have been imported improperly or fall foul of regulations, then hopefully the method of getting warranty work will only be changed in that a dealer would have to speak to Liaco, rather than going through IM.

I'm not sure if IM can "ban" a dealer from carrying out any work on a car. I'd guess that might be illegal.

I'm sure you'll understand that tempers are running high with such a sensitive issue. Although my car has covered 16K without incident, and I've not been told I'm not covered, it still concerns me. I recommended Motorpoint to a friend because of the friendly service I received from them. He also bought an Impreza. I've also had many a PM here on SN asking my opinion of them and I've told people that I would recommend them in a heartbeat.

So I don't want this to come back in bite me in the ****.

WRX54

I still haven't heard anything from Subaru Uk confirming in writing that i do not have a valid warranty until i have received this i have been instructed by Trading Standards that I cannot progress my claim against Motorpoint any further. As i have said previously my fault on my rear shock absorbers is being fixed now as Motorpoint have paid for the work to be done direct to my subaru dealer. Which i am obviously happy ironically my new shock absorbers come with a 60000 mile warranty so even if the rest of my car doesn't have a warranty my shock absorbers will be covered!!!?

I have sent a letter to Subaru Malta but i haven't had a response as yet. With regards to some of the comments related to the dealer dealing direct to Subaru Malta i did infact ask this question direct to my dealer on Monday just prior to when Motorpoint agreed to pay for the works and he said that they could have done that prior to this notification that has come from Subaru Uk asking for this to be restricted now.

What it all boils down to is that if at the time of purchase i was told that the price i was paying didn't include the warranty then i could have made an informed choice as a consumer of whether to proceed or to go to the subaru dealer.

Stainy

The point is, it DOES include a warranty. Nothing said anywhere here so far states otherwise. The only thing to have changed recently is IM's attitude to helping with the warranty (which I suppose is understandable).

IMHO, **** em. Speak to your stealership and arrange for them to contact MAlta/Cyprus etc direct.

Whilst IM stand to lose nothing by being obstructive, I'm sure that if all imports were to cease being serviced by the main stealers, they would see a healthy dent in profits.

If your local stealer wont play ball, shop around! I'm sure warranty work is very lucrative and there will be dealers falling over themselves to grab yours.

Finally, if all else fails, MOD THE ******!

solwood

iTrader: (1)

Look at it another way - all you peeps who like to go to Eurpope with your UK Scoobs.

If its in warranty and there is a failure would you expect the car to be fixed in Europe - lets say Germany on the way to the "ring" or would you want to tow it home and get it fixed under warrenty in the UK cutting short your holiday? Will you be happy when warranty work is refused in this situation - what if you bought your car 2nd hand (in warranty) from an independant trader - will that fall foul of this?

A pan european warranty means just that - a car can have warranty work by any dealer in europe!

Why because you buy a pre registerred car (by definition 2nd hand) in another country should this become invalid. Motorpoint sell stuff as pre reg not NEW (as I understand it).

Oh I had a UK car not an import but then I am really cautious!

Silver Knight

Get real,dealers won't be running around doing warranty work that they may not get paid for,just because malta says they will pay doesnt mean they will get the money, If
Malta paid up front then it may get done.
What happens when they want parts inspected, do they have to them send to Malta first? who pays for postage? and what about the extra time it takes?
Its hard enough making money at the moment without waiting extra weeks for warranty money to come through.

DazW

iTrader: (1)

If it was after 28 days Id expect the 'manufacturer' to sort it! ...by using anyone in there 'approved' network to act as a broker

gubby

There are so many opinions on this I don't know which way is up at the moment so I am taking it one stage at a time.

Whatever IM's decision is based on, one must assume that they have taken legal advice before embarking on this route. So they must be reasonably sure of their ground which seems to be based on an interpretation of some EU regulation. I certainly won't be filling lawyers pockets contesting this and have no doubt the smug ones at IM will be laughing their ***** off at the effect their little games are having. Which at the moment seems to be aimed at sodding up the customers.

Even so:-

1. Subaru MT have assured me that my car is registered with Fuji and I am covered by a 3 year Manufacturers cross border warranty and they intend to honour it.

2. The authorised Subaru specialist (NOT DEALER) that services my car has looked at the paperwork and said it all looks OK. BUT before he can carry out warranty work he has to get clearance from IM. So my car still needs to be registered with them.

3. Next stop IM.

4. If I need warranty work, the dealer does the work. Subaru MT pay for the work. All Subaru UK do is act as a conduit between the dealer and me and Subaru MT. I have my warranty work carried out, The Subaru UK dealer gets paid and makes a profit. Everybody's Happy.

But no, IM seem intent on scuppering this, thus leaving us without any warranty. They are not interested in competing commercially with the likes of Alliance & Motorpoint, this is a much easier option to try to put them out of business by squeezing the end user.

Subaru UK and Subaru MT buy the same cars from Fuji. Fuji makes a profit. Subaru MT sell them on to Motorpoint and Subaru MT makes a profit. Motorpoint sell them to me and Motorpoint makes a profit. Even after all these people have made a profit I can still buy the same car £5K cheaper than a UK dealer was willing to sell me one.

Well no wonder the avaricious sods at IM are miffed!!