Graham…a thought.

Every city and motor club in the UK now have high performance ‘rice rockets’ being developed and used in motorsport. Cheap Japanese imports and tuning ‘black boxes’ is getting easier and looking at £ per BHP, never been cheaper.

Unlike any other RACMSA governed sport, sprinting and hill climbing is reasonably unregulated. In simple terms you can pass your driving test in a Corsa on Monday and be racing a super car at Shelsley by the weekend, in your class.

Some one is going to die or be seriously injured. This season I have seen the underside of more cars than ever before on the track. I bet you the RASMSA are seeing this all over the country and will do something to cap the class you run in.

Even in the road going class I compete against 500+hp cars that don’t have roll cages and 6 point belts racing against me on road tyres. In one meeting I witnessed 4 cars pulled out of the bank at Curborough at the first corner, just kids who got carried away off the line. This is the slowest track I run on all year.

In many events I am doing 100+ MPH into hair pins and tyre chicanes, in one event my gearbox disintegrated at 104mph into the top bend at Llandow, it was a close call catching the spin and getting around the corner. It could have been a big accident.

In the late 80’s I remember a twin engined golf, an RX7 and an RS500 all being banned from Aintree because the clerk of the course felt they were simply too fast for the track.

I think it would be possible to loose a lot of money building a car that would be banned by 2009. Only option would be to put them all in the full racecar class…….worth looking into how the governing body are feeling me thinks?

With the investment required to build such a car, perhaps it needs to be in a time attack series or run on a course that have better standards of safety teams and with larger run off areas.

If anyone reading this were in manufacturing or automotive development they would be aware of the environmental and HSE issues that are killing UK businesses.

I would love to see my company HSE/factory inspector write a risk assessment on Rob driving Zen’s fantastic Impreza at Shelsley Walsh. The report would make great reading! I am sure in the commercial business world it would be deemed illegal.

Bottom line is self regulation never happens, so we wait to see what the RACMSA make of the clerk of course reports filed throughout 2007.

Might be worth sitting on the fence until 2008 regs come out.

Comments please...

John.

 

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

 

100% agree (firearms license holder too).

BUT People run RACMSA and are scared of 'claims culture' in Britain.

 

My capping comment was a mere 'joke' BUT there is a large element of fact in what you say on a serious note.

roll cages came to the Mod Prod class just 3 years ago and was IGNORED by the MSA Scrutes till complaints were made. The speed of many hillclimb cars is getting very high and the track are 50 or even over 100 years old now and really are dangerous.

However, i do believe this is all part of the game. Motorsport is dangerous to everyone on the venue. Rob did not HAVE to drive the Zen car so fast (I could prove it can go slower) but he did and coped really well with the whole deal imho.

I too am seeing a lot of Near Misses and crashes needing the helecopter to ship people away....It is no joke and something WILL happen to darken the sky soon. Deaths on hillclimbs are surprisingly common in the 15 years I have been doing it.

Alongside Design Director I am Director for H&S at work, and doing an RA on Rob/Zen, or 911/Sti etc would not look good for several different reasons, Rob is young and heathy and I'm old and take blood pressure tablets:
He is in a very fast car and capable, I am in a much slower car so do I present a lower or greater risk?

I am pleased to say it is Live and let Live on the hillclimb (or Drag or Rallycross), what a refeshing difference to my Working World.

I just hope the spectator really understands it is actually very dangerous to them if 'one gets away'.
I'm glad I'm not a Clerk of the Course....

Off to prep the Slow One for the weekend. Got to try to keep Rob to within 2 seconds of me!

 

No question in any ones ability here. Robs a great driver and Paul builds good cars. I like to think mine are safe too, just like yours.

I just sense a rule change coming. Its being discussed at local level now.

 

I wouldn't have a problem putting such cars in a racing car class. TimeAttack next year will require more than a regular 6 point roll cage, and already requires plumb in extinguisher etc. I know what you mean about "heros" in their modded cars and I've seen people lose it at the first corner of their first track day.

Ultimately people need to be able to have a place to take risks, or they'll be out doing it on the road and that could really hurt, and not just the driver. Provided the only person in danger is the driver, and he accepts the responsibility then I don't see the problem. Safer cars are worth pursuing, and I would so far as to say that at the last Shelsley meeting mine was the safest saloon to be in, despite the power/speed. Some aspects of safety should be enforced I feel, with the option of running in a lower/slower class.

 

I have 'discussed' a rule change for 2009 with some of the hillclimb 'authorities' as to shaping the mod prod saloons.

My position is for there to be 2 classes. In each class you can have saloons or sports cars, ie Impreza and 911's.

Class C1 would be road-going, MoT/lights /tax/ interior etc on list 1B tyres
All cars to have a 6 point cage minimum, a race seat and race belts.
Everything else is as per Blue Book. Pump fuel of course, no nox

Class C2 would be as above but hogged-out racers allowed, based on true production cars ie Impreza's and 911!
Slicks allowed, all else blue book and full race fuels allowed. No Nox.

So;

Zen car/ my car/Rob's car etc all ok for C1 just need list 1B tyres.
Audi V8, current C2 cars etc given the freedom of race fuels (more bhp etc) and ultimate grip.

Good to enter and good to watch, one affordable and the other ....well the sky will be the limit.
Also a C1 car could enter C2 class if you want to go on slicks etc so the Zen car could run C1 or C2 depending on what the driver / entrant wants to do.

How does that sound?

 

What about Locaterfields, Ariel Atom, etc.?
Which class would they go into and how quick are they in comparison? Remember V8 and Cosworth powered Westfields & Caterham csr (?) exist and could rule both classes.

I fear your regs would kill off the big saloons pretty quickly.

I, for one, am quite happy with the class structure as it is. But maybe that's because my interior went several years ago!

 

I was just saying for our class Thomas.

The C2 boys are already Saloons and sports. It's hard to say the SWB Audi's are 'sports cars' seeing as they are shortened saloons from the factory.

Roger's V8 was right on the button compared to the 2 SWB Audi's, and Rob's Impreza is also right there now fully dressed.

Of course, we could all be put in the same class as there is nothing to separate us specification wise except we should have tin tops, bit like the 911's and the SWB Audi's have in the Sports car class....

Road going has gone now and the rule change I suggest above will never get approval, hence gutting my Impreza next year.

 

Interesting reading, I haven't checked back in here for a while.

Here's my 2 peneth.

Classes, I think we all know now C1 & C2 are pretty much racing classes and we just have to get used to it. The game has moved on a lot since this time last year when Roy was dominating in a mega road car and it seems you either go full race car or go home if you have eyes on the top spots. Merging the classes I would be more than happy with but I agree with Graham, all tin tops together makes more sense.

Mega BHP jap hilllclimb cars seem to be very talked about by many people these days. Having been probably the only person to drive a 700bhp jap car up a UK hill I have some insight into what it's all about. I couldn't help but notice Andy F's post about someone enquring about his car in a hillclimb spec, I would like to ask what makes said person think he could race a 900bhp car with cold tyres and brakes up a single track road bordered by trees, rocks and 100ft drop offs on some occasions? It's a common misconception that big BHP cars are going to do this and do that, I'm sure the cars have the potential to but do the drivers? My car makes over 400bhp and weighs 1150kgs, a quick machine and I am only just now being able to really push it with those modest figures up these insanely dangerous tracks. I got to take the Zen Impreza up Shelsley Walsh, the simplest of Hillclimbs whch rewards ***** over finesse and it was verging on ridiculous how much speed you could pick up on 50mtr straights forcing me into lots of panic braking and erratic, slow driving. When I did try to push it and use it like I do my car the rear tyres broke traction under power at 106mph on super soft hillclimb slicks and I stuffed it into the bank. My point is a 420bhp lightweight car is a massive handful in these circumstances and anyone who thinks they can jump in a fast car and walk over everyone will end up in the bank like me or dissapointed like Roger in the A4 when someone in a sorted mid horsepower car they can really chuck in the corners and keep on the gas beats them. Just look at my brother Pete in a well sorted evo that is not very quick in a straight line (10 mph slower than me at Shelsley through the speed trap) I can't catch him at Prescott and he was only 7/100ths off the record of the purpose built 800bhp S4 with a missed gear!

As for saftey devices, I have recently expressed my lack of faith in my 6 point bolt in cage on my thread and think the safer the sport becomes the better. Ok the roof won't cave in on my head but what if I hit a tree on the drivers door at 90 mph with no door bars on my cage? Whilst none of us have the skill of rally drivers what we effectivley are doing is short tarmac rallys. Our cars would not be allowed in any rally and we are less skilled at controling a high speed incident, so more risk less safety gear?!?!

Thats my piece for now.

Graham you will have to try keep that margin down for both Pete and I this weekend as he is dual driving my car. If he goes faster than me in practice he is banned on race day though.

See some of you tommorow and the rest of you off over to my thread you traitors!!!!

Videos and pic tomorrow evening.

Rob.

 

So tintops only on 1Bs in C1 and everything else in C2 on slicks.
Now I get it, I was just having a blonde moment!

 

Yep!

I think I've lost the Leader's to your Dad, and the Harriman Bros's in Robs RA are miles ahead.
Tried a few alternative approaches to the steep hill today, inc one of Rob's suggestions which nearly worked.
Will try that again tomorrow if I can time it better, but the track was not 'record friendly' today.

So:

Last hillclimb race tomorrow for 2007 and the last for the Impreza for 18 months as I fettle it down to as light as possible but still road going, unless i get the bug hard and really let rip, but then I'm bound to a trailer for life.

Tomorrow will be a fun day, and I'm 0.6 off my pb set in the sunny summer.

There are several racers though who could be a problem to me and Jeff, especially Andrew in the Legacy.

Time will tell, literally!

 

Last hillclimb for me and 2007 in the Sti.
Car ran a dream but I could not find a pb today, but 4th in class is ok behind Rob and Pete in the fast RA plus the demon MkI Escort as our class was amalgamated with Bii.
Tucked into the 32's so sort of pleased with that.
When putting my road wheels back on tonight I spotted the front slicks are down to the canvas....could be why the grip hasn't been to good!

So, a set of £840 slicks have lasted 12 meetings, which is about 40 miles of racing.
Value for money?

The car will now be converted to a full race car, maybe with a road-going spec or a trailer only spec for 2009.

So ends the 2nd phase of the car and I look forward to a restful 2008 in my trusty 911.

One more mini adventure for the car next week at the sprint track to really furbarr the slicks and its the start of a new thread!

1400 entries and 49,000 views has been fun?

You bet!

Graham.

 

Graham,

Warmest congratulations on your Leader's Championship Class win !

( Your Barbon record was the tie breaker )


We'll be at the Chateau to cheer when you get it.

Best Regards,

Geoff & Barbara

 

!
You must be sure Geoff.

I think you deserve it far more as you have worked and travelled so bloody hard compared to me!
Thanks for the congrats though, I had better start saving now for the 'do'....

Graham.

 

" It's Graham's , the Barbon record was the tie breaker ".....Tony through the Shogun window just as I was leaving

I've had a real fun season , PB's everywhere , three class wins , a few engraved glasses , and great company every weekend especially in the class.

Time to unload and go for a spin...withdrawal symptoms already!

Geoff.

 

Thanks for the voice message Geoff at work. Much appriciated.

Have you seen Gordon Marston's Pilbeam @ £16K? What a beauty! (and he is finding it hard to sell too......)
I still have that Brabham/V8 in my mind too...

This has now tonight cost me a Monkey Suit, 2 frocks and 3 tickets....
A nice big picture off Roger McDonnald and too many drinks!

And it's all your fault!

Be good to see you there Geoff.
Regards, Graham.

 

Thanks for the voice message Geoff at work. Much appriciated.

Have you seen Gordon Marston's Pilbeam @ £16K? What a beauty! (and he is finding it hard to sell too......)
I still have that Brabham/V8 in my mind too...

This has now tonight cost me a Monkey Suit, 2 frocks and 3 tickets....
A nice big picture off Roger McDonnald and too many drinks!

And it's all your fault!

Be good to see you there Geoff.
Regards, Graham.

 

Champs are too expensive,

I'm now down a Monkey Suit, 1 frock , two tickets and an overnighter for starters and I haven't won anything!!!!

I'd missed the Brabham V8, but there are a few Pilbeams as well as Marston's ...... I know Mrs. Robb would be pleased to see one or two go ...from our conversation at SW !

You can't blame me , I only encouraged you at Barbon ......

See you at the Chateau

Cheers

Geoff.

 

Graham,

I'm looking for some advice from a man who has done the DCCD conversion.

I am buying the DCCD from API and will be fitting it to my existing gearbox with David's help probably!

I need everything else. So, what controller did you use and do you still use it?

I have seen the neetronics and one made by spider?

Just wondering what the right and most cost effective way is to do all of this myself.

Cheers,

Wayne.

 

Bit of a shock to see this old thread again!

I used the stock dccd ecu and still have it in the car. Works well.
In hindsight i would have paid for the Neetronics as it has other features, but if David can find you one (hard to find) then i would use the stock unit.

The next thing is the indicator on the dash. Most of the fuss with the wires is all just to give a dash display of the dccd position (of the knurled wheel) and after messing about i just did not bother with the indicator!

I have a simple spring clip on the knurled wheel and for racing I count the number of 'clicks' from fully open. I found the right position of the dccd by trial and error (it is very sensitive).

For the road I only use fully open and it drives great.

The power take-off is from the power side after the ignition switch, and I simply sliced open into the cable and soldered the power wire for the ecu off that and tped it back tight again.
You must have a simple relay to drive it all. These are bog standard automotive relays, nothing fancy.

I installed the lot in the glove box!

The Neetronics does a lot of the above in one package, and has a built-in display too. I saved £200 using the stock ecu and spent ages working it all out and into the car. Wish I had spent the £200.
some pics for you:

dccd control wheel and 'click' spring index:

ECU and red relay in glove box:

Connections to the handbrake:


Graham.

 

Graham,

After a bit of digging around I have found another DCCD controller to the neetronics.

Its called the spiider dccd auto controller and basically uses a G-Sensor to automatically change settings depending on the cars speed, TPS etc.

You can alter the degree to how much the unit controls from open diff to locked diff but the auto part always works.

Spiider’s DCCD Shop a guy called Jeff in the states.

Also, after reading up on this I think my stock 160 diff in the WRX may need to replaced before I break it. I'm going to speak to David in the morning and see what he recommends as I think my rear diff is a viscous and a plated or mechanical one would be better. Its for road use mainly so it needs to be friendly too.

Cheers,

Wayne.

 

Interesting!
As to the diff, David found me an R160 plated diff (genuine Subaru) and stripped/set it as a tight rear(!) and although very very snatching while parking etc on the track really good. Road manners are fine till going slow when the noise and the jolting makes passers by look...

David will advise you but my plated (and viscous) diff have tolerated 180 x '6000 rpm and dump the clutch' starts with real slicks fitted (360 lbft torque) and all is well. He will sort the right driveshaft out for you too, the visc shaft on one side cannot be used with the plated lsd. This is the combination you need:


180 of these:
DropShots.com

 

Cool, looks like it's a go-er then!

Not looking forward to taking the box out again in order to fit the diff!

Cheers for the info Graham.

Wayne.

PS, do you have a diary of the hill climbing events you go to?

 

Yes, and you are not far from a few of them. I'm not racing my Impreza this year, it is for Sale!
Will post them up later; wife telling me to get off this ''damn thing'' and come down stairs to watch F1......

 

Holy sh$t thread resurection!!!! Bump for a good read and useful info for newbies.

 

Forgot how much info was on here.

 

One to have bookmarked!

 

My era too. Had 3 championships myself since. Two in imprezas and one in cosworth.

Back racing in autocross now these guys don't race me anymore.

Perhaps I should run a thread.

Rob and 911 inspired many an imprezas driver. Sadly recession has thinned us out.

 

Some of us are still going and finally getting into some competitive motorsport