Soulgirl

LOL, you know me so well I actually went to bed shortly after posting that Are you white coat or blue collar out of interest?

Chip

So why would the surgeon speak in contradictory terms then??

One minute it's urgent and has to be removed ASAP, the next it's OK to hang on a month or two but, unless he wants it done privately in the same NHS hospital. So how come no beds for NHS patients but bed available if he pays for it.

The whole thing is a joke.

Chip

Deep Singh

My god, someone on this site who knows what they are talking about.
A very good summary of all that is wrong with Labours management of the NHS.
Mr S, very confused that Chip's mate has been told he can have it privatley in the NHS tommorrow. Maybe ICU staff prepared to work in time off for premium pay rates? That never works in my hospital

PIXIEDUST

sorry chip but i've worked in the nhs (also in s. wales)under a tory government and this lot and give me this lot any time .As for uhw a filthy hole, money thrown at it left right and center and still unable to provide an adequate service.

Soulgirl

You answered your own question... because he can pay for it. It's not the same beds... the NHS hospitals have private wings. Not sure how the CCU bed would become available though as I am sure they do not keep underoccupancy in case of private patient need. I may be wrong there though.

Mr Sympathy

Deep Singh, Thank you for your kind comments, private beds in NHS are in private wings or on wards and called amenity beds where "some" services are provided privately funded, critical care units do not, to my knowledge provide amenity beds, only fully funded beds are provided for cases which cannot be handled in private sector, and there are many. Yes Critical Care nurses work agency outside NHS, much much better pay. Much much less grief.


Soulgirl, neither!

Pixie dust, Critical care units in Tory Britain had average capacity of 75%, capacity for emergency, under labour typical critical care units now run on 90-97% capacity due to measures of new labour I could spend all night explaining. Figures speak for themselves. Tory Britain saw nurse employment at 100% and in mid 1990s jobs were scarce, now workforce propped up by massive foreign recruitment, vacancies still exist.

Shock statistic : there are enough nurses in the UK, but ask your self why only 70% of all once registered nurses now work in the NHS and student nurse drop out rates since 1997 have soared from averages of 7% to some as high as 45%, now what happened in 1997...mmm... oh yes i remember. could go on and on and on.

Deep Singh

I'd buy this man a drink anyday

Chip

So as I stated before then, it just comes down to money, which when someones life is at stake is just not acceptable.

Chip

Deep Singh

Chip I wonder if you have misunderstood some of the facts. As Mr S mentioned you do not usually get HDU/ICU beds that are kept for private patients in an NHS hospital.
If you have got it right then maybe its because people are prepared to work in their spare time for extra cash. Nothing wrong with that.

If money were never to be an obstacle when it came to healthcare the country would be financially crippled, its an impossible wish. The situation can be improved, but the sort of healthcare utopia you want is not feasible.

Peoples lives are also put at risk by constraints on Police/Fire brigade/ambulance/road safety/social workers the list goes on.

Not sure about Wales but in England all cancer cases have to have their op within 6 weeks of diagnoses( Mr S feel free to correct). If your friened gets the op in this time he will come to no harm. 6 weeks may seem like a long time, but you c'ant expect everything immediatley,there are thousands of people needing urgent ops

All the best,Deep

Chip

Correct, beds must be being kept for private patients. My mates argument is that he has been told there are no HDU beds available for his op yet there clearly are. I know money is the key to this and we cant just throw money at everything all of the time but it's sickening when we constantly see these w@nker MPs telling us that all is rosy in the NHS. They tell us they'll send patients to France or private ie BUPA hospitals if the NHS cant do an operation. As usual its all just soundbites isnt it. In reality these things just arent happening.

Chip

Deep Singh

I do see your point matey.
Let us know when your friend has had the op and all is well

Deep

Mr Sympathy

I have to ask you chip why do you think this mate? Whio is telling you there are HDU beds? Go to where these beds are and see the manager who is a nurse not some spotty pimply NHS management training scheme, career jumping, unethical, budget wary, even more senior manager wary and target hitting person. Oops did i have a rant then, sorry!

The likelihood is they could have 20 physical beds but only be able to afford to staff x amount fully equipped.

Interesting fact time again, most private sector management training schemes specify a good 2:2 in a relevant-to-field degree, the NHS scheme accepts thirds in any discipline, I dont want to demean under achievers as the NHS tries to see good in all, but management in NHS is far from cream of the crop I can tell you!

Mr Sympathy

Correct, excluding childhood, testicular and breast cancer, as well as leukaemia which have separate targets, maximum waiting time in 2005 should be
a maximum of 2 months from Urgent GP referral to beginning of treatment.
Chip, arm your mate with this, get clock ticking. Targets were set in 2001 mind you.

Chip

Because the consultant has told him so. Read my posts.

Chip

Mr Sympathy

Sorry I have and cant find where you say consultant tells him so.

Please feel free to correct me if i am having a blonde moment. With respect this consultant does not control HDU beds, typically an anaesthetic consultant or an intensivist (Critical Care Trained doctor) decides who has what bed, whilst he can book them for his cases he does not control access to them.

But saying there are staffed beds but he cant have one has foxed me completely. If beds are available it doesnt make sense he cant have one...

Soulgirl

As Mr Sympathy says, there may well be physical beds, but this particular patient will not medically benefit from just a bed - it's the treatment and aftercare that is paramount that cannot be serviced by a vacant bed with no doctor, nurse nor specialist to coordinate the treatment.

Chip

[QUOTE=Mr Sympathy]Sorry I have and cant find where you say consultant tells him so.

QUOTE]


surgeon doesnt use BUPA but can do it privately in the NHS hospital where he was booked in to have the op done anyway

So therefore if the op can be done in the same hospital then there must be beds available. It just comes down to financing it, but he has been told its purely down to availability of beds and not financing.


Chip

Mr Sympathy

Now I get you but it is a matter of funding, you can get anything if you pay for it, my concern was there was no NHS bed for him, of course a vacant bed can be staffed for your friend with equipment and an agency nurse if he pays for it, though such private patients in HDU beds is very rare.

HDU beds cost around £900 per day, ITU beds twice that, complications for private patients can become very costly indeed!

Apologies for any confusion and good luck to your mate.

DJB

I've been reading all this with interest.

I work in the NHS in Scotland and have never worked in hospitals in which private patients are treated alongside NHS patients. This system strikes me as one of the most unattractive sides of private medicine. I have heard (through surgeons I've met in England) that in such hospitals, theatre lists are sometimes altered to ensure that the 2 private cases that are supposed to be at the end of the list are moved forward to ensure that they are done (at the expense of the NHS cases which are cancelled).

As I understand it, Chip's mate is being denied his op because of HDU bed shortages. In most hospitals that I have worked in, vacancies in HDU beds are controlled by surgical staff (and sometimes anaesthetists) - that is to say that the surgeons looking after the patients in HDU determine whether their patients can be moved to ordinary ward and therefore create a vacancy. Due to new emergencies and ward patients becoming sick, this situation is constantly changing (every hour, let alone every day) and this is what primarily determines whether an operation which normally requires an HDU bed can bedone or not. Unfortunately this means that major elective operations are sometimes cancelled at the last minute.

I would be surprised if an additional HDU bed can be created for a private patient (in a private wing of NHS ward) since the monitoring equipment, etc and the provision of necessary trained staff is not something that can be put in place easily. I presume that what the surgeon is saying is that he can do the operation privately (ie single room in private wing, named surgeon, etc) but HDU bed availability will still not be guaranteed.

D.

Deep Singh

DJB agree with most of what you say except 'most' HDU/ICU beds are staffed or 'controlled' by anaesthetists ( I'm one!)

Chip

There are private beds/rooms in the UHW in Cardiff. I know because I was actually put in one after I had a minor op cancelled twice in two days. When I went in on the third day it was cancelled again, only after having a damn good whinge I was put in a private room that was not being used on the same wing as I would have been in anyway.

Chip

Mr Sympathy

I will ditto this, In England at least most combined units (ICU and HDU beds) are run by anaesthetists or intensivists, some stand alone HDU's are still run solely by surgeons, I presume this is the case at UHW.

Chip

Well, he eventually had the operation after it being cancelled for a third time and seemed to be recovering well.His scar is amazing.Looks like hes been attacked by a great white.

Anyway he came home last week but was readmitted on monday this week after being in intense pain over the weekend.

Consultant wanted him to have a ct scan straight away to find out the cause of the pain but ct ppl wont allow this as they are said to be too busy even though the ct scanner is only operating for normal working hours.

So he's been in since Monday waiting for this scan as if he goes home it'll more likely be a month before he gets one.

Consultant has said today hes hoping to get his scan done on Tuesday so that means 4 more days in hospital waiting.

So he'll have been waiting and taking up a bed for a total of nine days just to have a ct scan. This bed blocking nonsense is also stopping someone else from being admitted for what could be an urgent op as was my mates.

Chip

starstruck

Yet another example of a second rate Health Service.
Michael Howard has the right idea, People have paid for a first class service and getting anything but.
I suppose the Labour way would be to throw many more millions at it, don't worry how the money is being used, just spend more.
He should think himself lucky that he hasn't been affected by MRSA yet.

Chip

Yet!

When I visited him in hospital the ward was filthy. A pillar between 2 windows was crumbling (a haven for germs) and a vase with flowers in had green water in it.

A nurse also put a pi$$ pot on the table as well. A table that was to be eaten off later on.

Chip

Mr Sympathy

Glad to hear all went comparatively well for him and recovery is on its way, some of points you make are well known in NHS good to see them getting aired here.

If he stays as an inpatient it is best for the CT scan unless some administrator finds out and pressure (bullies) anyone to discharge him.

CT scanners are overrun with work, not with staff so a delay of less than two weeks is quite good really.

Oh and finally, you will in time find out his operation was never "cancelled" it was probably "postponed" due to clinical reasons and hence does not pop up on NHS star ratings, different words you know!

I know an ex-nephrectomy patient who to this day says he was bitten by a shark and he is invariably always believed! explains the clean cut line was a very talented surgeon who was good at stitching him up, amaze any young relatives with it.

Deep Singh

Glad he's had it sorted

Julz1983

Glad to hear your mate got his op, hope he's doing well

Consultant told him on Thursday that the cancer will not spread from his kidney so ultimately after removal and chemo he should hopefully be OK after treatment.

I know exactly what you mean about the state of our NHS, my Dad had his Kidney removed 5 years ago as he had a tumour inside it, everything went seemingly well and he was going to check ups every few months after his op which were supposed to carry on for atleast 4 years to make sure nothing came back, he went back to work as a HGV driver which he had done all his life, the doctors decided one day after less than 18 mths after his op that they would stop the checks because everything seemed fine, he did question this but when a doctor says everythings fine you carry on with your life, subsequently my Dad was admitted to hospital on New Years Eve 2002 after he had started feeling unwell on Xmas Eve, he missed my wedding on the 28th Dec so I came back off Honeymoon and straight to the Hospital, he couldn't go to the toilet properly or eat, it took 1 week for them to get their ***** in to gear after us nagging them alot to actually do tests, test results came back and he was diagnosed with a massive tumour in his stomach which fills with fluid constantly even while being drained off its filling up just as quick, no treatment could work absolutely nothing, but that would have been treatable if caught at an early stage if his check ups had carried on so how do you tell someone you love and that thinks they are going to get better that they won't, well we couldn't tell him he was the type of person that would have been so devastated to know he wouldn't be getting out of hospital, I was 8 months pregnant I knew my Dad didn't have long and even though I had weeks to go and they knew what was going on they wouldn't allow me to have his first Grandchild early I was told theres no reason to, after a long 3 weeks in hospital visiting everyday my Dad died after going through the symptoms this horrible Cancer caused, I was just turned 19 years old, recently married and about to have a child, if the world could have swallowed me up I wish it could that day, I hate hospitals and doctors ever since, I can't trust them anymore when I go to see them, our system is the worst I know.

Soulgirl

I can understand your feelings of anger and resentment... but what other system do you know of that is better?

Did the doctors confirm the stomach tumour was as a direct result of the kidney tumour? It could have been completely unrelated and therefore not necessarily picked up even with routine checks for his removed kidney. Some cancers don't spread, and as they had already told you that I'm sure it must have been true. A lot of cancers don't metastasise beyond the original tumour

Julz1983

Apparently this tumour had originated from the one in his kidney, or so we were told anyways, apparently something to do with tiny deposits that had escaped from inside the kidney whilst still in his body, then travelled to somewhere else and set of another cancer.