johnfelstead

Most i saw at the 'ring on mine was 120 degrees Matt, i had my warning light trigger at that, i ran with the undertray off. If you drop your shift point 500rpm you will knock upto 10 degrees off your oil temp, so try a higher gear and use the torque where you can and you will find you oil temps plumet.

beryllium

i am using a rare gulf racing 5w60.

oilman

iTrader: (9)

It doesn't look too bad, certainly must contain an element of synthetics although what it is I can't see on the link.

The HTHS is better than a lot we see and the Noack is low which indicates that the basestocks are pretty good.

The sheet must be fairly old as the API is SJ, we are currently on SL and SM is now starting to appear in the states.

Hope this helps

Cheers
Simon

s70rjw

iTrader: (2)

When I got my MY00 it had 15/40 in it. Changed to Mobil 1 Motorsport 5/50 at last service.

John 37

My only reservation with this is that I don't change my oil as often as the WRC teams. Many times I have heard that such and such is used for racing so it muist be good. The product rarely translates satisfactorily to road use.
No problems with the rest of this thread though.
Thanks to all.

John

johnfelstead

Just because the can says Motul 5/40, it doesnt mean that's what's in it.

Oldest game in the book is running oils in competition cars that are not what is on the can or marketing information.

oilman

iTrader: (9)

John,

I spoke to Motul and it is what they run in the cars. The same stuff that's available to the general public.

Cheers
Simon

JIM THEO

They change the oil when necessary, we change our oil after a period of 3-5000miles that's the difference and you don't know what oil temps e WRC engine works etc not to mention they don't care so much if the engine last 150-200000miles as we should do!
IMHO we shouldn't compare WRC (or even Group N engines) with road cars, it's completely different story!
JIM

oilman

iTrader: (9)

Jim,

Whilst I appreciate your comments, it does not make their oil unsuitable for a road car - In fact they recommend it which they wouldn't do if it wasn't.

Cheers
Simon

Dark Blue Mark

Agree with John and Jim - I suspect the conditions a WRC car's lube are subject to are extremely harsh. Although the philosophy behind longeivity of an engine is somewhat different to a road car Would be interested to know what temps are and if they are in the range of coking etc....

Guess Motul aren't going to tell us if its a modified blend they supply for SWRT, as it wouldn't promote the sales of their standard range.

MB

JIM THEO

We agree on this Simon, I didn't say the opposite in any case and personally I don't care if Subaru uses or not Motul 5W/40 for their WRC cars, what I am very happy with is that 300V has been proven as one of the best motor oils all over the world and is protecting better from most other oils my engine, this is fact!
If you search at www.subaru-sti.co.jp STI sells Motul 15W/50 and not 5W/40 as performance oil with his logo on it, this at least means for me more than any previous comment about WRC etc
I have used Castrol RS10W/60 and can say for sure that is a "fair" oil, less noisy in the engine than 300V series with wider temp range, although I could describe it as every day oil while Motuls are more heat stable and more performance focused oils, all IMHO with no proof, just from experience!
JIM

oilman

iTrader: (9)

Jim.

Fair points and I totally agree with them.

Personally, for the money I think Motul is an excellent oil and as you say their reputation is growing in performance car circles.

Cheers
Simon

stockcar

??? no offense, but think you will find that (almost) in any performance circle they have a better profile than many other "leading" oil brands and certainly better than your favourite..........................

also it is only one of a couple of oils that we have used/supplied (mainly in competition use) that i can genuinely say we have had no issues with whatsoever, not even a slight hint that the oil may have contributed to a "failure" of some sort..................unlike certain other brands that we have ceased to stock!!

alyn

oilman

iTrader: (9)

alyn.

I think that we can all tell horror stories here on one oil or another and even on some so called "top oils" however, I like you judge an oil based on firstly it's quality and compositional attributes then on satisfied customers and track record.

I simply refuse to be drawn into a slanging match as it will contribute nothing.

Cheers
Simon

tsl202

Hi,

I'd like to know if I wrong using 10w60 oil for my MY2002 wrx (euro spec)?
I don't know if you know Japanese Performance mag, they use this kind of oil in their impreza project.

Will wait for your answer.

Kind regards

Daniel

oilman

iTrader: (9)

Old chestnut this one and differing views - debated on many occasions.

In my view it's too thick and 5w-40 or 10w-40 is the correct grade as listed in your handbook. Suggest you take a look and see what it says.

I'm sure others will no doubt disagree with me.

Cheers
Simon

johnfelstead

It's getting really old having to correct you Oilman.

You often mention the handbook and say the correct grade as listed in the handbook is 5W-40 or 10W-40 yet you fail to mention the fact that the handbook also states you should use SAE Viscosity No.: 30, 40, 10W-50, 20W-40, 20W-50 if apropriate for the aplication.

You also ignore the fact that the oficial upgrade choice of STi is a 15W-50, yet this isnt a grade listed in any of the handbooks.

I would also like to point you to the spec sheet of Castrol RS 10W-60 released by Castrol UK and hosted on your website www.opieoils.co.uk/TechSpecs/CastrolRS10w-60.pdf

This states "Castrol Formula RS 10W-60 is a fully synthetic motor oil for drivers who love driving. Castrol Formula RS 10W-60 is suitable for everyday road use, even in high mileage engines and is proven through race track and engine tests."

It also states "Castrol Formula RS 10W-60 is formulated with fully synthetic base oils and an advance additive package to provide the following benefits:

· Specially suitable for high performance applications.

· Provides improved acceleration for safer overtaking.

· Maximum wear protection and deposit control assured.

· Reduced friction allows easier cold starting and faster oil pressure build-up.

· Engine deposits are kept to the minimum possible to preserve engine life and reduce ownership costs."

Castrol RS 10W-60 is an all season oil of a very high quality, it is not too thick, there is something else round here that is too thick unfortunately.

oilman

iTrader: (9)

Uncalled for and unecessary.

Where is sae 60 mentioned in the recommendations?

You may not like it John but we are all entitled to our views. I am in the business of recommending and retailing oils (yes including Castrol RS 10w-60) and because you disagree does not make you right. I have also stated on many occasions that I WILL NOT recommend 10w-60 for scoobies and the reasons why this is the case, perhaps you should read the reasons carefully (Castrol do not recommend it on their website nor do Silkolene or Motul!) rather than posting Castrols marketing blurb on their datasheet.

I would also like to point out that I recommend oils based on 4 different sources which are credible, I don't just pluck them out of the air so please don't insult my credibility or professionalism, I have never insulted yours.

Cheers
Simon

johnfelstead

You are posting very selective information Simon which ignores important secondary information found in the handbooks, when you state the viscosities listed in the handbook you use the table for general usage and you ignore the aditional info for harsh environments and aplications. This is misleading and confusing to people who should be able to get good advice from a "profesional".

There are a large number of users on this BBS that run modified engines that require higher grade oils than the general use table, there are also a large number of users who drive their cars in a spirited manner, either on the road or track.

With a turbocharged engine you need to cater more for these harsh environments when choosing an oil due to the increase in temperatures and thermal transfer asociated with very hot turbo cores. Blanket statements like read the handbook isnt good enough, especially when you use that to back up your prefered grade of oil. You know that most people wont read the handbook and notice that there is extra information relating to other oil choices, but will take the word of a "profesional" at face value when you sugest what you are saying is the advice of the handbook.

SAE 10W-60 isnt mentioned in the handbook, but neither is 15W-50, which is the oficial high performance oil of Subaru Technica International, the company which creates the STi versions of the Impreza.

Statements such as Castrol RS 10W-60 is too thick is incorrect, it is an oil designed for all year round use that has a very high upper temperature stability which makes it suitable for harsh environments such as high performance engines being driven hard.

It's important to understand the use the engine is going to be put to before you recomend an oil, your continous use of the handbook general use table isnt good enough and could lead to engine failure where a higher specification oil would have prevented this.

There are users on this BBS that have years behind them using Impreza's in all environments that have logged the results of using various oil brands and viscosities, i will take the findings of these people (i have done a bit myself) over someone selectively reading from a handbook spec sheet anytime.

johnfelstead

P.S Apologies for sugesting anything in this thread is thick.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Although 20w-50 and 10w-50 is, naturally 15w-50 falls inbetween these viscosity bands, so would be suitable.

I would like to think this is misleading PR/sales talk. I am yet to find a road car that lists a 60 weight oil. Be it straight 60, 5w-60, 10w-60, 15w-60 or 20w-60. So I would only say it's suitable for extreme hard use and high BHP.

Dark Blue Mark

Ali, surely you need to see a viscosity / temperature trend before you make such a claim? The thickness may not be completely linear, and I doubt it is. I don't know what it looks like but not going to assume anything!

MB

johnfelstead

BMW M range of vehicles with the S54,S62/E39 engines, if you dont use Castrol RS 10W-60 or the renamed version of Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 or Veedol Synthetic Z 10W-60 your waranty is void.

oilman

iTrader: (9)

There are some - yes certain Alfa's and a few BMW M series engines.

The differences between a 10w-50 and a 10w-60 are important:

The SAE band for 50 is 16.3 Centistokes (cSt) to <21.9 at 100degC.

For SAE 60 it is 21.9 to < 26.1 at 100degC.

It is interesting to note that some xW/60 oils also qualify as SAE 140 gear oils: the SAE 140 range is 24.0 to <41.0 at 100degC.

Typically, 10W/50 oils have a 100degC viscosity of 18cSt; 10W/60 grades are usually around 23.5cSt. But the more important question is, where do they stand after a few thousand miles hard use?

Because of the greater amounts of VI improver polymer needed to ‘lift’ the viscosity, a 10W/60 is more prone to shear effects, so it can be expected to drop to around 19 or 20cSt; a good quality 10W/50 will only drop to about 17cSt.

The fact is that "sheared-down" 10W/60 is actually better for the engine than when it's new! Modern designs do not need very high viscosity oils. They can cause trouble with air entrainment, and cavitation inside bearings at high RPM.

So 10W/50 is not particularly close to 10W/60 when both are new.

This is not technobabble but fact.

Cheers
Simon

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

True, without going by much info. All I know is it much more viscous than many other oils until above 40 degrees...even a straight 40 monograde.

I'm also concerned at "how" they managed this claimed viscosity range. and how it affect the durability of the oil...especially if will have lesser heat disspation/cooling properties.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

OK you got me there LOL...I think the jag XKR's and XJR's run it too, along with XJ220s, Ferraris and Maserati's.

They also have listed 0w-40 too which just makes the mind boggle.

johnfelstead

Some aditional info on what the viscosities mean, the first number (10W) is the cold viscosity (W means winter), so a 10W-60 has the same cold viscosity as a 10W-40. This means cold starting oil flow will be the same on a 10W-60 as a 10W-40.

The second number is the viscosity of the oil at 100 degrees C. STi's when motorway cruising tend to have an oil temperature of 100-105 degrees C, once you start to load them up hard for sustained periods the oil temp will be in the 120 degrees C range, the higher reving the engine (such as STi's) the more this thermal buildup occurs, 500rpm higher shift points causes a significant increase in oil temperature.

One of the unique features of the Subaru flat 4 engine is the small width of the big end bearings compared to most other engines, this makes high oil temperature stability far more critical than most other engines. It is more important to select the correct grade of oil when you are going outside the normal usage oil recomendation tables than on more conventional engines.

Dark Blue Mark

Anyone got a trend for temp / visc?

MB

oilman

iTrader: (9)

Absolutely correct John but it must also be understood that there is a difference in thermal stability between a petroleum sae 40 and a synthetic sae 40 and this is the thing that I keep trying to stress. A shear stable Synthetic 5w-40 (using pao or pao/ester basestocks) is capable of handling very high temps (up to around 140 degC and more in some cases) for long periods. The reason for this is because they contain little or no VI Improvers which are the additive that's prone to shearing.

Hence these oils are capable of staying in grade for much longer under severe operating conditions than their petroleum counterparts. I.E. a petroluem based sae 50 will shear back quicker and further than a synthetic sae 50 and indeed an sae 40.

Basically quality is the key here and should always be taken into the equation.

Cheers
Simon

JohnD

iTrader: (5)

Blimey Oilman, you didn't get this much interaction on the Alfa Romeo site!

www.alfaowner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32004

JohnD