Senior_AP

It's all relative.

CraigH

well if he just wants to thrash a car, he may as well get a fast one.

XTR2/4, Radical SR3

sorted, end of discussion

CraigH

No it's not - it's all about priorities. I have no need/desire for a decent road car, hence the westie as a suitable track car. I don't see the point of having an expensive quickish car for the road when you can't use it properly and which gets killed on track.

Other peoples priorities are different.

N1 SPAN

May be an idea to keep the Pug. I guess all I can say about there not being any wrapped up is that they are either very used to their cars (which you should be before entertaining the ring) or they are not trying!.

The only way you can really compare lap times is with the same driver in different cars. I have seen Elises being wasted by 205's, 306's etc around various tracks but have also seen well driven 118bhp Elises wasting 300bhp plus scoobies, Evo's, 200bhp caterhams and pretty much anything else you can think of really.

I have owned and / or driven on the road and track the following:

Pug 205 x 2 (1.6 & 1.9)
pug 306 gti-6
MX-5
my 99 impreza ~ 260bhp
STi 7 type UK
2.0 VX powered Westfield
standard Elise
Roadsport Caterham
civic type R powered Elise (limited experience as it's not mine!)
1400 Caterham race car
Caterham Superlight
Caterham Blackbird

I have put them pretty much in order of on track performance (lap times) which is no indication of their on road performance at all. I know from your vids and experience that you are pretty useful at the ring (quicker than I am there anyway) but if you actually drove all these things back to back you would probably find bigger differences than 10 secs a lap. An Elise with 118bhp should waste a 205 around the ring if it was being pushed but the fact remains that pushing an elise is walking a tightrope whereas you can get 99% out of your pug 90% of the time with limited effort.

Just to see the differences you should get along to a UK track day (I could recommend a few) and get out as a passenger in some Elises and Caterhams with some regulars and then get an instructor or the track organisers to take you out in a similar car just to see the difference between what looks quick in an elise and what is actually near the limits. I can guarantee you that approx 1% of track day goers in Elises actually know what their cars can do. there is a whole other world beyond tyre squeel and a little twitch here and there. they can carry massive speed.

The only reason I say all this is because from reading your other threads I reckon you are the kind of person that likes to get the maximum from their car and will keep on trying until satisfied you are there. If I thought you would drive it like 99% of track day goers then I would say get one on a flash, you would not be disappointed, just please be aware they can be real giant slayers but also catch you out!

Have fun.

davyboy

Good reply Craig.

Senior_AP

...or it could simply be a case of opinion??

18k is alot of money (imo) on a car when you can have equal levels of fun (imo) in something half (imo) or even a third (imo) of the price.

If Gary is set on spending that (his choice, his opinion, his money) then I'm with the Elise, VX220's of this world.

Cost of cars and how much money one has is totally relative.

davyboy

....of course it's opinion.

I don't doubt you would have as much fun driving sliding an old pug around the 'ring overtaking new Porsches, than if you were in a 964rs on r rated rubber.

BUT.......one of the cars is going to give you that special feeling..and you can't put a price on that...(well 30k !!)

Dave

Gutmann pug

Good discussion this one for sure and all the comments and opinions are appreciated.

RRH

I ran an ex-cup clio race car for twelve months or so- on track- not road legal.

There was little that would keep up with it on track when driven well (I got overtaken loads )- on a recent MLR day at Oulton there were only two Evo's I didn't pass at one point or another. Don't take this as a 'clio faster than an evo' type comment as it isn't, it's race car v road car.

The beauty of the clio is that it hardly costs anything to run, the biggest PITA being having to trailer it. I get about 4 trackdays out of a set of cup slicks (£90 a set), it's never used more than a tank of fuel in a day, and, as I said, its bloody quick. For comparison it'd knock 3+ seconds a lap out of my Mi16 pug (with cams and on slicks) even though the pug is quicker in a straight line (slightly)

There are a couple knocking around at the moment on pistonheads and racecarsdirect, usually around £4k for a good one, £2.5k for one that's a bit more 'used'. Mine only had 1200 miles on it when I bought it, I paid £4k, and she was immaculate.

Also you don't have the worry of stuffing the car you'll be driving to work the next morning

davyboy

Can you make them road legal.......and was it reliable? By that I mean did anything break or were you fixing it often?

Dream Weaver

Is it not part of the fun with a track car, getting your hands dirty?

I'm really enjoying rebuilding my 205 and learning a hell of a lot. I thought i knew a bit about mechanicals, but i've now learnt so much more.

Gutmann pug

hmmmmmmmmm not sure its part of the fun DW. I remember you pulling your hair out for a long long time before you decided what you were going to do with your car and now its been a while you have been mucking about with it. Also costly me thinks. As for reliablility we will have to wait and see on that one once she is finished

I need something which is going to get me across belguim to the ring early in the year, do one weekend every month track work, then get back across belguim at the end of the season. It needs to do all that and start first time when i arrive to drive it. I aint got time to be mucking about getting the bugger started.

With that in mind the Elise / VX220 is looking a good route. Either that or accept the hard wearing brakes and tyres and keep the scoob in germany for 4 months then bring it back and take the pug for 4 months.

davyboy

But the problem is our cars will be stored in Germany, there will be little time to "tinker".

Gutmann pug

I beat you too it Dave..........

RRH

Mine passed an MOT, although I never got round to registering or taxing her. I drove her on the road once and it was a total nightmare- I only went about two miles as she was being displayed by Liverpool Motor Club in a local show, and I really didn't want to drive her on the road again.

Basically the suspension was far too hard for the road and she was running massive camber which made it feel very nervous at low speeds. She really came alive at 70+ though

I'm now using the 205 for track days, but to be honest it really feels like a compromise after having a proper race car.

RRH

sorry forgot to add the clio was very reliable. only had one prob, she threw a wheel bearing at croft and nearly tore my thumb off (warm slicks), spent ages in plaster.

they run 4 deg neg camber on the front, so we changed the bearings every 18 hours of running just to be safe. other than that she started on the button every time.

N1 SPAN

If the cars are being kept in Germany then it has to be a completely track biased thing. Will you pm me details of costs for doing this. Sounds interesting. Just fly & drive, like it.

Senior_AP

(if left in Germany)

Will somebody take it out every couple of weeks?? Just to give it a run every now and again??

davyboy

yes, I will!

At least once a month....that will be fine.

Senior_AP

.....even in the depths of Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb??

Can't you just get someone to take it for 15 mles every 3rd week or summat?

davyboy

Car will only be over there from April to October.

Back home being fettled over winter.

Senior_AP

Furry Muff. When are you getting your ARB's?

davyboy

Januaury

Senior_AP

Cool.

Right, I'm off to MK to buy £300 pounds worth of shirts (3).

Gutmann pug

Dont forget to get one with diamonds on ya gert big poof

CraigH

hmm - he's getting his wardrobe sorted for the M3 I see.......

If you're going to be stroing a car in germany, is it more cost effective to buy a left hooker? Not looked into it, just a thought.......

If you're only driving it back and forth to the Ring once a year, could you not get something more extreme that needs trailering? Isn't tooo much hassle is it and you'd be able to get something seriously fun then. Westie starts everytime, no matter how long it's left...

Gutmann pug

lalalalalalala im not listening .........lol

head going round in circles as it is.

davyboy

LHD is a good call.

I wonder if there are cheap Opel Speedster turbos floating about?

simo

I don't think a left hooker would be required. If u are storing it near the Ring then to / from the track is'nt a major issue & once on they all go round the same way (hopfully ). The only benefit could be a price saving if you by a left hooker in the UK.

Type R

Havent read the whole thread, but I read you were intrested in the Elise/VX's.

I went from having what was in the end one hell of a beast of a FWD Hot Hatch, JDM CTR (1.6) was as quick as much you see on track these days, I sold it got a DC5 then Elise S2. Honda's are reliable, but my old car, the engine went and clutch less than 1000 miles after I sold it, so not indestuctable, 45000 miles and 30+ Trackdays, and is expensive to rebuild, and tuning Honda's is not cheap.

Having RWD on track is so much more envolving, and they are really good on tyres & brakes, and not overlly expensive to replace. Also it may seem silly but I tend to not use a lot of petrol, which keeps the costs down.

The handling is outstanding, and having driven what I would argue being the best handling FWD car, it simply doesnt match the smileometre of the Elise/VX. the S1 111s with CRB is a good buy, and find one with LSS minimum or Nitrons, or a standard one, and fit a DVA 160 for 40bhp more for 1.5K.

Now the bad bit, they are not what i would call reliable, HGF is an issue, mine went 25000miles, 10ish trackdays and was pretty much standard, Ive also had a number of unexpected bills. Repairing the Elise/VX can also be quite expensive.