Track car for £18K????
28 November 2004, 09:33 PM
#31
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Not sure elises/exiges are particularly reliable saxoboy, despite their track day pretensions.
You can get an E30 M3 for 5k, spend 3k rebuilding the engine, don't cage it, in 2 years time it'll probably be worth £7k. It will cost £1-2kpa to run though, although most parts are quite cheap and if you have them serviced at a good specialist who don't BS you, they will be fairly economical. Although old of course.
£18k would get you an Exige. Reliability may not be great. Same with VX220. Older TVR? I know you've done it, but a nice Griff 4.3, Nitrons, APs, sticky tyres would be lovely.......and less than £18k.
Or (again like Saxoboy says) Elise Mk1 for 8-9k, VTEC lump conversion £5k, by default that sorts the reliability issue and gives you a good, quick track car, good for road too. But old again....lots of compromises......
I honestly think it's a little daft doing it to a new car.....look at it another way. Get an Mi16 lump for the 205, spend £2k on it, having it refreshed etc, you're looking at about 180hp? Would be as quick, if not quicker than the Clio and possibly more fun. Your financial liability will be waaay lower and you still keep the Scoob. Or get rid for something else, but you have your "budget" track car that hits all the right buttons imo without being mental.
You can get an E30 M3 for 5k, spend 3k rebuilding the engine, don't cage it, in 2 years time it'll probably be worth £7k. It will cost £1-2kpa to run though, although most parts are quite cheap and if you have them serviced at a good specialist who don't BS you, they will be fairly economical. Although old of course.
£18k would get you an Exige. Reliability may not be great. Same with VX220. Older TVR? I know you've done it, but a nice Griff 4.3, Nitrons, APs, sticky tyres would be lovely.......and less than £18k.
Or (again like Saxoboy says) Elise Mk1 for 8-9k, VTEC lump conversion £5k, by default that sorts the reliability issue and gives you a good, quick track car, good for road too. But old again....lots of compromises......
I honestly think it's a little daft doing it to a new car.....look at it another way. Get an Mi16 lump for the 205, spend £2k on it, having it refreshed etc, you're looking at about 180hp? Would be as quick, if not quicker than the Clio and possibly more fun. Your financial liability will be waaay lower and you still keep the Scoob. Or get rid for something else, but you have your "budget" track car that hits all the right buttons imo without being mental.
28 November 2004, 09:43 PM
#33
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jesus im begging to sound like westy .......lol
Just having one of those days when things go through ya head and you think, 'thats a great idea'. Cheers for the reality check though.
Still would have liked to have seen and driven a stripped tuned 182 cup but hey its not for me i dont think.
So when are you coming over then Craig? April?
Just having one of those days when things go through ya head and you think, 'thats a great idea'. Cheers for the reality check though.
Still would have liked to have seen and driven a stripped tuned 182 cup but hey its not for me i dont think.
So when are you coming over then Craig? April?
28 November 2004, 09:43 PM
#34
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ITR DC2 £8k then either:
Keep to N/A (the way it's really meant to be) - £3-4k to get about 210-220bhp caged & stripped looking at 950kg-1000kg depending on how serious the weight loss.
OR
Go FI - £6-7k to get about 250-290bhp (JRSuperCharger is about £3.5k fitted) caged & stripped 950kg-1000kg on an extra diet (but some reliability will be sacrificed).
Wouldn't cost much to sort brakes/suspension as both are great as standard.
Total N/A £11-12k you'd get about £8k back in 2 years time est.
Total FI £15k you'd get about £10k in same time.
All IMO of course.
Think you'd be much better with a S1 Exige or something RWD?
Keep to N/A (the way it's really meant to be) - £3-4k to get about 210-220bhp caged & stripped looking at 950kg-1000kg depending on how serious the weight loss.
OR
Go FI - £6-7k to get about 250-290bhp (JRSuperCharger is about £3.5k fitted) caged & stripped 950kg-1000kg on an extra diet (but some reliability will be sacrificed).
Wouldn't cost much to sort brakes/suspension as both are great as standard.
Total N/A £11-12k you'd get about £8k back in 2 years time est.
Total FI £15k you'd get about £10k in same time.
All IMO of course.
Think you'd be much better with a S1 Exige or something RWD?
28 November 2004, 09:46 PM
#35
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Do you not fancy Mi'ing the Pug Gary? As Craig says, they are as reliable as you make them - do all the work yourself, then you know how the whole thing fits together, an engine swap then becomes fairly easy if the engine blows.
28 November 2004, 09:52 PM
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Gutmann,
I'm with Davyboy on this one. I would definitely go down the Integra Type R Racing route (if I had the money and wasn't already juggling three cars, blah blah blah). I saw them racing in their one-make series in Japan, supporting the Japanese F1 GP. 35 of them screaming round Suzuka makes for some entertainment. Second only to the track marshall in the sideways NSX type R. Yeah, the F1 cars were OK, too.
If reliability is key, then I think the Honda wins it too. vtec's don't seem to have too many issues on that front, assuming they've been properly serviced. Very tight production tolerances etc. etc.
I wouldn't call squeezing 240bhp out of the nasty old Chrysler lump in the Mini a recipe for reliability. It won't sound as good as the Honda either. The Renault will probably fall apart if thoroughly abused on a regular basis, if my personal prejudices are accurate.
Oh, and why spend time and money stripping out a normal road car (including removing nasty underseal and NVH matting), when you can buy a car that never had them in the first place?
I could have an Integra Type R Racing, if I never buy a house. Cool...
Note to self: read all replies (both pages) before posting to avoid appearing like someone who isn't paying attention. Keep up...
I'm with Davyboy on this one. I would definitely go down the Integra Type R Racing route (if I had the money and wasn't already juggling three cars, blah blah blah). I saw them racing in their one-make series in Japan, supporting the Japanese F1 GP. 35 of them screaming round Suzuka makes for some entertainment. Second only to the track marshall in the sideways NSX type R. Yeah, the F1 cars were OK, too.
If reliability is key, then I think the Honda wins it too. vtec's don't seem to have too many issues on that front, assuming they've been properly serviced. Very tight production tolerances etc. etc.
I wouldn't call squeezing 240bhp out of the nasty old Chrysler lump in the Mini a recipe for reliability. It won't sound as good as the Honda either. The Renault will probably fall apart if thoroughly abused on a regular basis, if my personal prejudices are accurate.
Oh, and why spend time and money stripping out a normal road car (including removing nasty underseal and NVH matting), when you can buy a car that never had them in the first place?
I could have an Integra Type R Racing, if I never buy a house. Cool...
Note to self: read all replies (both pages) before posting to avoid appearing like someone who isn't paying attention. Keep up...
Last edited by Flingstam; 28 November 2004 at 10:03 PM.
29 November 2004, 07:44 AM
#37
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DW.
Ive never really considered MI'ing the pug to be fair. Ive been to a few tracks where Mi's were and thus far I havent been impressed by them. Im sure you remember the debate on here and 205drivers where my vid was put against a guy in an Mi round combe. He was lapping 1 second quicker. Not really worth the 3-4K for one second. Anyway not wishing to start that debate again coz it aint an option for me.
I do still fancy the teg racing or a standard one with bolt in cage. Will give Litcho a buzz later and have a chat with him. Dont cost nothing to have a chat.
Its probably just one of those fancy a change moments and will go away in a day or two.
Ive never really considered MI'ing the pug to be fair. Ive been to a few tracks where Mi's were and thus far I havent been impressed by them. Im sure you remember the debate on here and 205drivers where my vid was put against a guy in an Mi round combe. He was lapping 1 second quicker. Not really worth the 3-4K for one second. Anyway not wishing to start that debate again coz it aint an option for me.
I do still fancy the teg racing or a standard one with bolt in cage. Will give Litcho a buzz later and have a chat with him. Dont cost nothing to have a chat.
Its probably just one of those fancy a change moments and will go away in a day or two.
29 November 2004, 09:08 AM
#39
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The Clip Cup 182 is supposed to be coming out with factory options of recaro seats, roll cage and stripped interior. Not sure if its just a marketing gimmick, I've not seen it on options list yet
Cant see how you could make a clio that much a step up from your 205, 200bhp is easy enough but getting the weight down is a struggle. They must be around 200 bhp/tonne, whereas you must be around 160/170 at the mo? Thats not a giant leap.
Mini Cooper S from January come with £100 LSD option which will help.
I would go with something more exotic to start with.
Cant see how you could make a clio that much a step up from your 205, 200bhp is easy enough but getting the weight down is a struggle. They must be around 200 bhp/tonne, whereas you must be around 160/170 at the mo? Thats not a giant leap.
Mini Cooper S from January come with £100 LSD option which will help.
I would go with something more exotic to start with.
29 November 2004, 09:25 AM
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ellisg.
I have talked myself out of the clio cup idea. However with 200BHP and a stripped interior im sure I could have got a bit more than 200BHP / tonne
Ian litchfield has just informed me that the teg R racing is no longer available so thats that one out the window too.
back to the drawing board me thinks.
I have talked myself out of the clio cup idea. However with 200BHP and a stripped interior im sure I could have got a bit more than 200BHP / tonne
Ian litchfield has just informed me that the teg R racing is no longer available so thats that one out the window too.
back to the drawing board me thinks.
29 November 2004, 10:12 AM
#42
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Originally Posted by Gutmann pug
ellisg.
I have talked myself out of the clio cup idea. However with 200BHP and a stripped interior im sure I could have got a bit more than 200BHP / tonne
Ian litchfield has just informed me that the teg R racing is no longer available so thats that one out the window too.
back to the drawing board me thinks.
I have talked myself out of the clio cup idea. However with 200BHP and a stripped interior im sure I could have got a bit more than 200BHP / tonne
Ian litchfield has just informed me that the teg R racing is no longer available so thats that one out the window too.
back to the drawing board me thinks.
29 November 2004, 12:47 PM
#43
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How about a proper Mini?
On another forum I am on, there is a Z Cars Yamaha R1 engined RWD Mini for sale...
All for £11k
http://www.theminiforum.co.uk/forums...showtopic=4691
On another forum I am on, there is a Z Cars Yamaha R1 engined RWD Mini for sale...
All for £11k
http://www.theminiforum.co.uk/forums...showtopic=4691
29 November 2004, 06:44 PM
#45
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Hello Craig mate
Been doing a little homework on VX220's and Elise 160's today. The more people i talk to the more im thinking that maybe one of those two might suit me? I wouldnt want a lesser powered elise, need the grunt for the straights, but the 160 might be entertaining? Certainly light weight and pretty focused.
I would go for the caterfield approach but im thinking that the elise / VX is a little more usable during the winter etc.
If i was honest im not a lover of them but at the end of the day i need something which does it for me on the track and costs less into the deal.
What do you think of the 160 or VX?
Looking on auto trader i can get a 'T' or 'V' 160 for about 15K or a VX on a '51' / '52' for around 14K .... The vx220 turbo is also in there but dearer at about £19K. Dont wanna stretch to that coz i wanna have a few quid for bits and pieces, cage, harnesses etc.
what say you?
Been doing a little homework on VX220's and Elise 160's today. The more people i talk to the more im thinking that maybe one of those two might suit me? I wouldnt want a lesser powered elise, need the grunt for the straights, but the 160 might be entertaining? Certainly light weight and pretty focused.
I would go for the caterfield approach but im thinking that the elise / VX is a little more usable during the winter etc.
If i was honest im not a lover of them but at the end of the day i need something which does it for me on the track and costs less into the deal.
What do you think of the 160 or VX?
Looking on auto trader i can get a 'T' or 'V' 160 for about 15K or a VX on a '51' / '52' for around 14K .... The vx220 turbo is also in there but dearer at about £19K. Dont wanna stretch to that coz i wanna have a few quid for bits and pieces, cage, harnesses etc.
what say you?
29 November 2004, 07:30 PM
#47
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Gary,
You driven an Elise/VX? If not I'll understand why you're not a lover of them. Personally, I don't like k series engines. They sound awful imo, they're not the most reliable and are expensive when things go wrong. Bearing that in mind I'd go for a VX. But it's a vauxhall not a lotus. And if you have a VX you really want a turbo for trackwork which have got the power out the box. They're too expensive so then you look at Elises again. Not helping much am I?
An Elise 160, with nitrons, APs and sticky tyres will be very quick on track, but like our westie, not that quick straightline - certainly nothing to worry a scoob like yours after 60mph. Have a look at a few for sale below, they'd all be good choices imo. The black 215hp 160 would be a quick track car - bear in mind that you can get a bog std elise and get it to 160 spec for way less than the price difference of the actual cars....
http://forums.seloc.org/classified.php?action=ad&id=100
top of your budget but a bit special
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/det...p?i=31502&s=12
nice too....
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/det...p?i=32182&s=12
http://forums.seloc.org/classified.php?action=ad&id=21
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/det...?i=32067&s=222
You driven an Elise/VX? If not I'll understand why you're not a lover of them. Personally, I don't like k series engines. They sound awful imo, they're not the most reliable and are expensive when things go wrong. Bearing that in mind I'd go for a VX. But it's a vauxhall not a lotus. And if you have a VX you really want a turbo for trackwork which have got the power out the box. They're too expensive so then you look at Elises again. Not helping much am I?
An Elise 160, with nitrons, APs and sticky tyres will be very quick on track, but like our westie, not that quick straightline - certainly nothing to worry a scoob like yours after 60mph. Have a look at a few for sale below, they'd all be good choices imo. The black 215hp 160 would be a quick track car - bear in mind that you can get a bog std elise and get it to 160 spec for way less than the price difference of the actual cars....
http://forums.seloc.org/classified.php?action=ad&id=100
top of your budget but a bit special
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/det...p?i=31502&s=12
nice too....
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/det...p?i=32182&s=12
http://forums.seloc.org/classified.php?action=ad&id=21
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/det...?i=32067&s=222
29 November 2004, 07:59 PM
#49
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Cheers for the comments. Funnily enough I have been chatting to the guy with the black 215BHP car today. Saw it on auto trader rather than piston heads.
I think i will go and have a look at a couple in a dealers at the weekend and see what I think of them. I llike the look and the thought of the 220 turbo
I know they aint gonna be as quick as the scoob past 60 but I just need to get that into my head and move on. It will be a cheaper all round package.
MJW .... dont fancy a 968 club sport, very accomplished but a bit long in the tooth for my liking. Westy or caterham is too anti social for me at the moment.
I think i will go and have a look at a couple in a dealers at the weekend and see what I think of them. I llike the look and the thought of the 220 turbo
I know they aint gonna be as quick as the scoob past 60 but I just need to get that into my head and move on. It will be a cheaper all round package.
MJW .... dont fancy a 968 club sport, very accomplished but a bit long in the tooth for my liking. Westy or caterham is too anti social for me at the moment.
29 November 2004, 08:06 PM
#50
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Gutmann - 18 thousand pounds is alot of money for something you're basically gonna thrash te f$ck out of roud the 'ring.
I seethe guys with MKII Golf GTI's, stripped out with rollcages etc etc. Very good quality, quick and if you do crash (more laps = more chance) then so be it, buy another.
Cost Vs Performance.
Higher miler 968 CS/944 S2/Golf GTI/e30 M3. imo.
18 grand is a shed load of wonga for something you're gonna hammer.
I seethe guys with MKII Golf GTI's, stripped out with rollcages etc etc. Very good quality, quick and if you do crash (more laps = more chance) then so be it, buy another.
Cost Vs Performance.
Higher miler 968 CS/944 S2/Golf GTI/e30 M3. imo.
18 grand is a shed load of wonga for something you're gonna hammer.
29 November 2004, 08:10 PM
#51
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So why are you looking to pay £14K on an E36 EVO to take it to the ring then???
I have the equvilent of the golf boys now, what i want is something which stops me from wanting to take the scoob all the time. An elise/VX220 for £18K isnt gonna loose alot of money I dont think. You cant get them even now for under £12K (ish).
I have the equvilent of the golf boys now, what i want is something which stops me from wanting to take the scoob all the time. An elise/VX220 for £18K isnt gonna loose alot of money I dont think. You cant get them even now for under £12K (ish).
29 November 2004, 08:10 PM
#52
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I have been reading this thread with interest and hope I can offer some useful comments. BTW, I don't mean to upset anyone by dissagreeing with them.
I know you have now decided against the clio and mini, which I agree with as you are getting no benefit over the 205 in my opinion and they will get trashed with regular track use. The odd track day is fine but that's not what you are talking about.
If you must stick with front wheel drive then I have to say the Integra would easily be my choice. There should be a few under 2 years old available if new is no longer an option.
I would certainly suggest RWD, HOWEVER, having driven the ring and owned most of the cars discussed above, I would not recommend an Elise / VX220. Simply because they are mid engined and knowing how many crests, blind corners, unexpected stuff such as tow trucks in the middle of a bend there are at the ring, to put it bluntly you will stuff it big style. The Elise is just about the best car I have ever driven and is great for track days and as a road car all year round. What it isn't good at is allowing you any kind of safety net when you are on the limit. If you have any hesitation on the limit in an Elise you will spin and there is no run off at the ring to slow you down. I know people say this about the 205 but TBH they are a piece of p**s to control when backing off or braking in a corner.
A Caterham is the ideal solution but you will need to trailer it there so you would potentially want to keep the scoob to tow with. They are very very forgiving and if you throw about £12k at one you would get 6speed, full cage, LSD etc. etc. and enough power to embarass most stuff at the ring.
regarding whoever has said the k series is unreliable and expensive - I know of Caterhams and Elises with over 30k miles on them that have never had the engines touched and do a lot of hard track work. Another way of looking at it is that if you blow an elise or caterham engine then a trip to the scrapyard and £500 - £1500 secures you another full engine with between 135bhp and 160bhp. Not too expensive!
For what you use a car for (I have seen plenty of your other threads and videos so I have an idea) I would suggest RWD but with a forgiving chassis. Here are some ideas:
Caterham
Nissan 200sx
modified old capri or escort
mazda mx-5 (easily supercharged - they need it)
Porsche 968 club sport
My mind has gone blank at the minute but there will be others I will think of!!
btw, I used to own a Caterham Blackbird that was actually built to compete in the Nurburgring 24 hour race and I think it is for sale again at the moment for around the £16 - £17k mark. Perfect. The pug 205 is the nearest you will ever get to a Caterham for feel and knowing what it is doing beneath you.
I know you have now decided against the clio and mini, which I agree with as you are getting no benefit over the 205 in my opinion and they will get trashed with regular track use. The odd track day is fine but that's not what you are talking about.
If you must stick with front wheel drive then I have to say the Integra would easily be my choice. There should be a few under 2 years old available if new is no longer an option.
I would certainly suggest RWD, HOWEVER, having driven the ring and owned most of the cars discussed above, I would not recommend an Elise / VX220. Simply because they are mid engined and knowing how many crests, blind corners, unexpected stuff such as tow trucks in the middle of a bend there are at the ring, to put it bluntly you will stuff it big style. The Elise is just about the best car I have ever driven and is great for track days and as a road car all year round. What it isn't good at is allowing you any kind of safety net when you are on the limit. If you have any hesitation on the limit in an Elise you will spin and there is no run off at the ring to slow you down. I know people say this about the 205 but TBH they are a piece of p**s to control when backing off or braking in a corner.
A Caterham is the ideal solution but you will need to trailer it there so you would potentially want to keep the scoob to tow with. They are very very forgiving and if you throw about £12k at one you would get 6speed, full cage, LSD etc. etc. and enough power to embarass most stuff at the ring.
regarding whoever has said the k series is unreliable and expensive - I know of Caterhams and Elises with over 30k miles on them that have never had the engines touched and do a lot of hard track work. Another way of looking at it is that if you blow an elise or caterham engine then a trip to the scrapyard and £500 - £1500 secures you another full engine with between 135bhp and 160bhp. Not too expensive!
For what you use a car for (I have seen plenty of your other threads and videos so I have an idea) I would suggest RWD but with a forgiving chassis. Here are some ideas:
Caterham
Nissan 200sx
modified old capri or escort
mazda mx-5 (easily supercharged - they need it)
Porsche 968 club sport
My mind has gone blank at the minute but there will be others I will think of!!
btw, I used to own a Caterham Blackbird that was actually built to compete in the Nurburgring 24 hour race and I think it is for sale again at the moment for around the £16 - £17k mark. Perfect. The pug 205 is the nearest you will ever get to a Caterham for feel and knowing what it is doing beneath you.
29 November 2004, 08:11 PM
#53
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p.s. I know you said something under 2 years old which I have failed to meet but for what you are looking for there isn't a lot of point buying a mint car to thrash and trash.
29 November 2004, 08:12 PM
#54
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Originally Posted by Gutmann pug
So why are you looking to pay £14K on an E36 EVO to take it to the ring then???
I have the equvilent of the golf boys now, what i want is something which stops me from wanting to take the scoob all the time. An elise/VX220 for £18K isnt gonna loose alot of money I dont think. You cant get them even now for under £12K (ish).
I have the equvilent of the golf boys now, what i want is something which stops me from wanting to take the scoob all the time. An elise/VX220 for £18K isnt gonna loose alot of money I dont think. You cant get them even now for under £12K (ish).
Here's an option. Lightweight, quick.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/det...?i=31976&s=231
29 November 2004, 08:14 PM
#55
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Originally Posted by N1 SPAN
p.s. I know you said something under 2 years old which I have failed to meet but for what you are looking for there isn't a lot of point buying a mint car to thrash and trash.
Exactly my point. It's alot of money for the purpose. (imo)
29 November 2004, 08:21 PM
#56
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Westy .......I think your idea of lightweight and mine are a little different Westy. Why would I sell the scoob to buy that?
Some fair comments there N1 Span. I have been round the ring in a well driven Elise and it was pretty impressive. Lapped quicker than the pug by about 10 seconds and only had about 140bhp, maybe less. There are a few guys over there in VX220's,Elises and especially exiges (bit dearer though) and I havent seen any propping the armco up. Doesnt mean it aint gonna happen though coz im sure it will sometime.
The old stuff just dont do it for me, i might as well just keep the pug and be done with it. But i dont want to just do that I dont think.
Some fair comments there N1 Span. I have been round the ring in a well driven Elise and it was pretty impressive. Lapped quicker than the pug by about 10 seconds and only had about 140bhp, maybe less. There are a few guys over there in VX220's,Elises and especially exiges (bit dearer though) and I havent seen any propping the armco up. Doesnt mean it aint gonna happen though coz im sure it will sometime.
The old stuff just dont do it for me, i might as well just keep the pug and be done with it. But i dont want to just do that I dont think.
29 November 2004, 08:26 PM
#57
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Gutmann - it's the lightweight model and is bloody quick. I thought the Pug was going - not the scoob?!?!?!?!!?
When all is said - what do you want, a car for the 'ring yes and what? For day to day use??
When all is said - what do you want, a car for the 'ring yes and what? For day to day use??
29 November 2004, 08:30 PM
#58
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I said they weren't THAT reliable and (I may be speaking out of turn here) but Gary doesn't seem the sort who'd spend 18k on a car and if the engine goes bang, takes a trip to the local scrappy.
Are Elises really that unforgiving as well? Surely with proper setup you can make them more neutral and friendly? I know ours is very forgiving, although not an elise it is mid engined.
I'm trying to look at this from your point of view Gary - you know mine as I keep saying
Are Elises really that unforgiving as well? Surely with proper setup you can make them more neutral and friendly? I know ours is very forgiving, although not an elise it is mid engined.
I'm trying to look at this from your point of view Gary - you know mine as I keep saying
29 November 2004, 08:35 PM
#59
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"The most succesful XTR2 for sale!
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Curreently raced in the JCC by Graham Hill & Rod Stead, this car has a fantastic race record of fastest laps & class wins.
Results this season are:
Rockingham 2nd overall
Angelsey 2nd overall
Immediately available as either a rolling chassis with spare dries & wets for £15,000 or with freshly rebuilt blueprinted engine (the one we set the lap record with at Pembrey!) £18.500.
If you check out the thread JCC Centurian Challenge, you'll see plenty of photos of the car.
Car based in Surrey if you want to see it.
Call Graham on 0780 8908238 or Rod on 07899 941 921 to discuss.
Only offered for sale because one of the drivers has been disabled by a lorry driver!"
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Curreently raced in the JCC by Graham Hill & Rod Stead, this car has a fantastic race record of fastest laps & class wins.
Results this season are:
Rockingham 2nd overall
Angelsey 2nd overall
Immediately available as either a rolling chassis with spare dries & wets for £15,000 or with freshly rebuilt blueprinted engine (the one we set the lap record with at Pembrey!) £18.500.
If you check out the thread JCC Centurian Challenge, you'll see plenty of photos of the car.
Car based in Surrey if you want to see it.
Call Graham on 0780 8908238 or Rod on 07899 941 921 to discuss.
Only offered for sale because one of the drivers has been disabled by a lorry driver!"
29 November 2004, 08:35 PM
#60
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It doesn't matter how much money you have or what you can afford......he wants to thrash a car around the ring.....I don't have a problem with that at all.
There are people driving thrashing 90k cars around there every day of the week......are you going to tell them it's a lot of money to hammer?
There are people driving thrashing 90k cars around there every day of the week......are you going to tell them it's a lot of money to hammer?