TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Hey look, the french proved you wrong

Tony

||VaNDaL||

sorry TonyB (are you sure its not blair???) The alf have definate links to so many other islamic fundementalists too ( )

the ALF whilst resorting to many extreme acts against those the feel are engaged in animal experimentation pose little threat to national security.

But as terrorism is as a concept the art of inflicting a state of terror - it has obviously got your personal paranoia to a level where you believe "men in black" are everywhaere saving us from invisible horrors everyday.

Al queda didn't even exist as an entity until the US needed to have a named organisation to be relevant to its organised crime laws which originally aimed at the mafia and so needed a named organisation to refer to.

and you if you have read previous posts from people like Jerome (who if you look in members pic thread is a serviceman) have far less belief in this delusional state you live in - where Blair and blunkett really do don capes and external y-fronts to protect us from scared men hidden in caves in afghani mountains on a nightly basis- I suggest you don a head covering of tinfoil and retire to a freshly dug foxholeat the bottom of your garden until you see the big flash of armegeddon that is happening shortly....

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

ALF are classed as a terrorist organisation, anything they do, ie letter bombs isnt just extremist, its terrorist, ie to cause terror.
You dont have to be big to be a terrorist

Tony

||VaNDaL||

berk

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

LOL you do make me laugh
Not quite "men in black", just normal civil servants and military personel, in rolls that support national security, unfortunately these are rather classified so you dont need to know the workings of, or how information is gathered, and you should respect these people alot more than you are, as you seem to think terrorism is a joke, and considering the likes of Madrid, virtually zero warning, and the likes of 9/11, zero warning, and the casualties inflicted by these attacks, you think its one big joke.
If all the information that you require is openly available to you, do you think that it would be a safer world to live in? or do you think we would be actually in more peril?
I can go out there, walk the streets, go shopping and know that there are people out there looking after our welfare, and not taking it for granted, you and others seem to take it for granted though, and anything that seems slightly "inhumane" by putting someone who is suspected of terrorist activities (if not proven at that time), consider the actions and aftermath of a terrorist attack, somewhat more "inhumane and deverstating".

Tony

pslewis

VaNDaL

You stated that the armed forces are there to protect us in THIS country and if this counrty is under attack ...............

You are so far away from fact and logic that its bewildering ....

They are to protect the UK interests WHEREVER those interests may be!!

Today, and yesterday, and tomorrow - the UK interests lie in Iraq (for whatever reason, Oil, Democracy, Freeing the world from a tyrant)

So, they SHOULD be their because our elected leaders decided that our interests were under threat!

And what does it matter what they earn? They are professionals doing a dangerous job - their choice - end of! .....................

Pete

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Pete,
I wonder if they would swap their pay for the pay of a private soldier (class 3), who is out there doing a job they wouldnt even consider?
I doubt it, yet these people are nothing, unless one gets killed, unfortunately this is a part of their job, i know, ive been there and seen guys injured (ie shot), doing their duty.
Now they could always join the TA and give up 2 weeks per year and their weekends?
Too much to ask?

Tony

bigJoe

You can take what you want from that particular news item, but the fact remains that there have been several foiled plots/cells throughout Europe – would you rather the authorities wait until and attack takes place – you never know you could be on the receiving end of it – your views won’t count for much then, will they?

Planning for the 9/11 attacks was carried out over a long period of time from Hamburg remember

There’s no smoke without fire and these people live among us, just as the IRA do

||VaNDaL||

sorry Tony, you were amusing, just that now your display of "if only you knew"
clearly displays your lack of knowledge -not just about the subject that you continually profess knowledge of that but of the whole concepts of "terrorism", Balanced response and even history. So.........

Yes Tony you have convinced me we need to remove all personal rights and freedoms of the british public henceforth everyone not immediately interned shouyld be tagged and monitered, anyone who we believe may be dissenting should be sent to a camp along with all their family plus all the immediate neighbours (plus all their families),how about lynching strangers next.
err.......









is this north Korea or soviet Britain???



as I said before

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

And you have proven that you take nothing seriously, unfortunately people like you will cause deaths if you were in any form of office of power
YOU have never seen terrorism up close, never had anything remotely happen to you or anyone asscocated with deaths of british servicemen on active service, or served yourself in the armed forces for this country.... people like you make me sick, making a mockery of our system due to it being unfair, so what about the dead who are killed by terrorists, you just jump on the bandwagon and say "oh get them out, then no one else will get hurt" LOL, such a narrowed vision view.
When you have seen the outcome of terrorism up close and for real, ie not on the tv, and understand that we are at a constant state of threat, be it low, medium or high, come back to me, this should mean that you dont need to put anything else to this thread.
Oh, and if you havnt already done so, go and donate a minimum 1 quid and get a poppy, if you want to show your appreciation and support, here is one visable way of doing so.

Tony

||VaNDaL||

and you my friend can't read

gsm1

If anyone is going to cause death it's Blair who is inviting a terrorist attack. He can't wait for one to occur here, then he can have total control over the brainwashed.

Leslie

I honestly don't think it was in the interests of this country to create a world centre for terrorist organisations from which they can build a power base to attack our homeland since we have now become a prime target like the USA. The place is a hotbed and it will take a very long time to get it under control, if ever!

I am not so sure that the Iraqis are ready for a democratic western style of government anyway. I think at the moment they would be happier with a benevolent dictator who would govern them in their own interests, unlike the evil SH who of course was once fully supported by the West when it suited them to do so.

Les

Mitchy260

With the disgust from armed forces personell along with friends and family. The 1million or so people that turned up for the anti-war demos, and even the hunting bans i very much doubt Tony Blair will be re-elected.

wrxtankie

We cant vote, we arent on the register. Unless its by proxy vote.

the moose

Not disputing your service, patriotism, or indeed your common sense Les, but the way your previous post read, you were actually surprised that politicians act in a political manner. I honestly see nothing different with this conflict, other than perhaps this is slightly more idealistic and slightly less obviously mercenary than is usually the case.

If I'm honest, I'd far rather support a war in support of economic interests than one ifought out of some misguided sense of morality, or, still worse, anything which has a tinge of religion in it. The current war is turning more and more into Christianity vs Islam (The Sequel), and between us and the Americans we've managed to take a difficult part of the world and turn it into somewhere truly dangerous.

Bravo, Blair and Bush!

khany

I understand you point Tony but lets put things in prespective:

Most people including me get a birdseye view of a holocaust in our life time , depending on how old you are, 40's and below, where allegedly 6,000,000 Jews were killed but that's a far cry from 25,000,000 - 60,000,000 Christians being slaughtered in Russia alone , that we never hear about.

Now the Zionists have orchestrated it so Christians and Muslims are killing each other just what they want.

Lets not forget the fundamentalist Jews (Zionists) dont like Christians any more than they like Muslims, after all it was the Rabi's who handed Jesus to the Romans and rejected the fact that Jesus was a prophet of God. Infact in the Holy land the Christians and Muslims get treated alike as they are not the 'chosen people' according to the Jewish Scriptures.

Now people may think that I am anti Jew, I am not. I am anti fundamentalist Jews (Zionist Jews) as i am anti fundamentalist Muslims or Christians.

Now these muslim terrorists are not what most people thing mindless thugs out to kill anyone they can, far from it. If this was the case why have we not seen a country like Sweeden or Norway experience suicide bombs or attacks from Al Qyeda????

Now I ask you...

Whats the difference between a 17 year old Palestinian blowing himself up in a crowded market in Israel because during his life if you can call it that, he has seen his dad shot dead, mum raped and house buldozed by the Israeli army and the Israeli army using helicopter gun ships to blast in most cases innocent people in refugee camps to pieces?

pslewis

WOW, 1 Million!!

Thats means many more millions will vote FOR him!!

Its simple maths - Blair will win because there are still those of us old enough to remember just how bad it CAN get ...... for those who remember the Tories!!

Pete

Leslie

Well Moose I was obviously not surprised at the way they act these days since it appears that governing for altruistic reasons, as politicians used to do, has gone by the board and it now seems to be the accepted thing to lie and cheat as you run a government largely for your own self aggrandisement. You seem to regard this as purely acting in a political manner.

I very much regret the idea that they can do their best to fool everyone into believing that what they are doing is for other's good when it patently is not and as UB says, there is always a hidden agenda somewhere.

One day things may go full circle as it so often does and we may get some leaders who will tell the truth and actually govern the country for the sake of the electorate which is why they were voted in initially. This present aura of spin doctors, whitewashing, re-stating reasons for previous actions which were denied as good reasons in the first place, and straight lies, are no way for leaders who are supposed to be honest and trustworthy to behave. This is a disease which is getting worse and can only lead to disaster eventually when the house of cards collapses. Trouble is-we are the ones who will lose out.

Les

harvey

iTrader: (48)

This started with the loss of three members of the Black Watch Regiment battle group and the devastation to their families, loved ones and colleagues.
I have no problem with fellow Scooby Netters having contrary views but the degeneration that took place in this thread is a sad indictment on our community as a whole.

(British)Soldiers know and accept that they may pay the ultimate price. However they also reasonably expect to be reasonably lead at all levels.
I do not think that intelligence assessments before the invasion of Iraq were that far out. They were heavily qualified where human intelligence was concened and there was no photographic or intercept evidence which is usually conclusive. If there was hard evidence from communication intercepts showing WMDs etc then I am sure we would have heard about it by now.
What is very clear and I think generally accepted is that a case for war was presented by our government putting a slant on the information to suit their purpose. WMDs, 45 mins, the range of missiles, being able to reach Cyprus for instance and nobody in the government did anything to put the record straight when the media frenzy was in their interests. This was against the caveats accompanying most intelligence assessments. MI6 have now recinded their previous assessments for instance. So in short, a balanced overview was not given by the government and the public were misled.

While soldiers at all levels expect to obey orders they also expect these to be based on sound judgement. The decision to move the BWR north, over 500ks to Iskanderiyah was a political one. Senior officers raised concerns at the strategy, or lack of it. It made no sense militarily. Senior officers were already concerned by the lack of equipment and resources while they were in Basra. They were already streached in that sector which they generally had under control. They raised concerns again at moving north, extended lines of communication, rapid re-enforcement available by air only, supplies for 800 plus men, 80 armoured vehicles and support vehicles and equipment only available by air because of the danger to covoy movement as history has now proven.

How was the decision to do this sold to the public. By leaks and denials that the decision had been made, dragged out for a week in dribs and drabs in a style that now typifies this government.

The public do not hear how under resourced our armed forces are. Lack of personal equipment, an infantry weapon which causes a major lack of confidence, a manpower shortage that has to be bolstered by TAVR personnel and civilians from industry to give technical support and the NHS for nurses, basic logistics even, etc. One of my friends has done 14 mths continuos duty and they do not get asked to volunteer for the next tour anymore. They are told where they are going.

This government is responsible for the death of loyal soldiers whoose lives were given needlessly and that is what this is about.
Part of the tradgedy is, where is our alternative to Blair and his cronnies?
Apathy is rife and there is a lack of sincere, capable people prepred to come forward to make the best decisions for UK Ltd as opposed to following narrow party political dogma and advancing their own interests.

Jerome

Well said Harvey, but prepared to be completely ignored or shouted down as this thread descends further into a unpleasant slanging match.

DocJock

I would like to second that Jerome.
Well said Harvey.

This last year has probably been the first where I have been tempted to say to myself I am actually not bothered to be off the RARO list.
Reason being I have absolutely no trust in the people who have the power to over-rule, for political expediency, the advice of Staff Officers who have years of experience on which to base their advice

Sbradley

I'm curious, Pete.

You comment on armchair soldiers playing wargames on their PS2s. An opinion which I'm rather inclined to be sympathetic towards.

But, and please correct me if I'm mistaken here, the sum total of your military experience is, um, naff all.

So what gives you the right to talk about the loss of British troops in active service? In fact, from your logic, what gives you the right to express an opinion at all on any subject involving military personnel or activity?

I agree with your argument about voting - if I had my way the vote would be mandatory. Voter apathy is the reason so many extremist politicians get seats in erstwhile democracies. If it's only the extremists who get of their backsides and vote then their choice will get in. But your comments about the military are misguided at best and crass and stupid at worst.

So, in true military style, I'll close by saying one thing. Wind your neck in.

SB

Sbradley

Oh, and TonyBurns,

As a guy who spent a considerable length of time using a mirror on a stick before getting in the car, changing routes and so on, might I suggest that you're a little more discreet when talking about things you used to do?

And also you should know that our Republican friends were not fighting for a reunited Ireland. First of all, they were fighting because they were petty criminals and gangsters who felt that a Republican flag gave them a faint air of respectability. Pluis, of course, it gave them the chance to carry guns and, therefore, be Big Men. And secondly, it isn't possible to reunite a country that has never been united. The closest there has ever been to a united Ireland was when William of orange invaded almost all of it.

As far as your other comments are concerned, I can see where you come from but would suggest that if we really go down the road you seem to suggest then while lives may be saved our lifestyles, constitution and, in fact, our world as we know it, will be so changed that the terrorists will in effect have won. We will be ruled by terror, not democracy...

SB

pslewis

I have more military knowledge than you might think - some things I can't talk about, you will appreciate.

My comment about muppetts commenting on here after playing PS2 wargames is correct - they just haven't got a clue whats what.

Maybe you would now like to wind your neck in?

Pete

Sbradley

Pete, if you really do have the experience you hint at then while my neck will remain extended I will accept your right to comment...

If you fancy enlightening me offline I'd be interested. And discreet...

SB

pslewis

I don't think the Security Services would agree with my 'being discreet by only talking to ONE member of a BBS' !!!! If you know anything then you'll know that

Pete

Sbradley

You still in, then?

SB (Finished completely June 2001)

pslewis

I'm still engaged in stuff I can't talk about, yes - in fact I will NEVER be able to talk about it.

If you were engaged in covert ops. you can't talk either!

Pete

gsm1

That 'stuff' being to brainwash people on SN that Blair is a great leader.