EVO vs IMPREZA
12 July 2000, 05:44 PM
#31
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On the way to test drive the RB5 I met a bloke in an EVO6, he'd just come back from the Nurburgring (been racing his EVO, surprise surprise) only uses the car for track days. When asked if he liked his EVO, said it's great for the track but a little harsh for general road use.....
12 July 2000, 06:03 PM
#32
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I was wondering if those who own or regularly drive Evo 6's could comment on what happens at the limit of adhesion.
Yes I know that Subarus spin earlier, but with a properly set-up Impreza the car will never spin unexpectedly- it will give good warning. While I believe a Evo 6 can maintain its composure and grip longer, once it goes it goes. Can any owner discuss what its like on the limit or in emergency situations when the Evo 6 transitions from grip to slip??
Yes I know that Subarus spin earlier, but with a properly set-up Impreza the car will never spin unexpectedly- it will give good warning. While I believe a Evo 6 can maintain its composure and grip longer, once it goes it goes. Can any owner discuss what its like on the limit or in emergency situations when the Evo 6 transitions from grip to slip??
12 July 2000, 06:46 PM
#33
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Jeremy
It's not that a scoob spins earlier (as such). It's more that the EVO has trickery which hrlps you to recover froma potential spin.
When driving an EVO right on the limit, everything feels pretty normal, until you overstep the mark a touch..
Let say you get on the gas a touch too early and put the car sideways, the car reacts and corrects for you (sorry, I'm not actually sure how). This kinda feels like a wall of control (best way I can describe it).
It is possible to overstep this wall also, by throwing the car into a bend in a way that would spin most cars. You can then hold the car sideways on the gas (to a point).
Geezar (and other anti-this-thread people
)
I am surprised that you fell so strongly about threads like this. Surely this kind of question is part and parcel of the enthusiastic ownership of a performance car?
I mean, what is motorsport except the practical experiment of this very concept? Why do we love to watch it?
I understand that it may not be important to you, but I guess it is to some people (me included). I'd love to see Alistair McQueen take every performance car in the world on the biggest group test of all time. I doubt you would turn down a ticket
Just my thoughts.
Steve Prockter
The AYC is actually there to PREVENT oversteer, not create it. This is why EVO6's understeer less than scoobies out of the box...
The only reason a scooby is more difficult to oversteer is the factory set-up. They engineer heaps and heaps of bump-steer into the front geometry to make a very stable front end. AWD cars are deadly when off power and steering. The bump-steer makes the front wheels toe-out when under load so creating understeer.
The prodrive settings couter this a bit by starting off with toe-in. Whilst this helps it is still not good enough. The only way to sort this out properly is to get is removed / set-up by a specialist company like Powerstation (cheltenham - worth the trip).
EVO's however, have the AYC to save us from ourselves, so they are able to set the suspension up myuch more agressively allowing better front end bite.
A Powerstation set-up scooby will have just as much (probably more) front end bite as an EVO6.
Cheers
Simon
It's not that a scoob spins earlier (as such). It's more that the EVO has trickery which hrlps you to recover froma potential spin.
When driving an EVO right on the limit, everything feels pretty normal, until you overstep the mark a touch..
Let say you get on the gas a touch too early and put the car sideways, the car reacts and corrects for you (sorry, I'm not actually sure how). This kinda feels like a wall of control (best way I can describe it).
It is possible to overstep this wall also, by throwing the car into a bend in a way that would spin most cars. You can then hold the car sideways on the gas (to a point).
Geezar (and other anti-this-thread people
)I am surprised that you fell so strongly about threads like this. Surely this kind of question is part and parcel of the enthusiastic ownership of a performance car?
I mean, what is motorsport except the practical experiment of this very concept? Why do we love to watch it?
I understand that it may not be important to you, but I guess it is to some people (me included). I'd love to see Alistair McQueen take every performance car in the world on the biggest group test of all time. I doubt you would turn down a ticket
Just my thoughts.
Steve Prockter
The AYC is actually there to PREVENT oversteer, not create it. This is why EVO6's understeer less than scoobies out of the box...
The only reason a scooby is more difficult to oversteer is the factory set-up. They engineer heaps and heaps of bump-steer into the front geometry to make a very stable front end. AWD cars are deadly when off power and steering. The bump-steer makes the front wheels toe-out when under load so creating understeer.
The prodrive settings couter this a bit by starting off with toe-in. Whilst this helps it is still not good enough. The only way to sort this out properly is to get is removed / set-up by a specialist company like Powerstation (cheltenham - worth the trip).
EVO's however, have the AYC to save us from ourselves, so they are able to set the suspension up myuch more agressively allowing better front end bite.
A Powerstation set-up scooby will have just as much (probably more) front end bite as an EVO6.
Cheers
Simon
12 July 2000, 06:49 PM
#34
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scott, you might like to ask the queens mail service where your st2 paint is i sent it the day after our meet/mad dash for a cash point,scouts honour,you should have said.i will try to chase it up for you but i expect i will get the reply of dunnow mate
12 July 2000, 06:52 PM
#35
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Simon,
Where did you learn all this stuff on chassis set up? Is it all experience through motorsport, or are there any decent books or websites you can recommend? It'd be good to learn a bit more about the theory.
Gary.
Where did you learn all this stuff on chassis set up? Is it all experience through motorsport, or are there any decent books or websites you can recommend? It'd be good to learn a bit more about the theory.
Gary.
12 July 2000, 07:04 PM
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Hiya Gary,
My knowledge of chassis / mechanics in general is very poor.
I only fully understand what I need to get the most out of the car. And yes most of that knowledge is through experience, etc. Whilst I love to have a laugh in a car, etc. I take my ability to drive a car on the limit very seriously, and there are SOME areas of car set-ups which are beneficial to understand as a driver. But I also beleive that understanding some things are unnecessary and may detract from something you were doing perfectly well at a subconscious level.
As far as books, etc. I'm not actually sure, John Felstead may know.. He knows everything else
You could always have a look at
My knowledge of chassis / mechanics in general is very poor.
I only fully understand what I need to get the most out of the car. And yes most of that knowledge is through experience, etc. Whilst I love to have a laugh in a car, etc. I take my ability to drive a car on the limit very seriously, and there are SOME areas of car set-ups which are beneficial to understand as a driver. But I also beleive that understanding some things are unnecessary and may detract from something you were doing perfectly well at a subconscious level.
As far as books, etc. I'm not actually sure, John Felstead may know.. He knows everything else
You could always have a look at
12 July 2000, 07:35 PM
#38
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I own a MY93 WRX, With mods About 250bhp. My dad owns a MY93 EVO 1 about 270bhp. I regret to say this but the EVO is quicker than mine.
In my defense the scooby looks alot better than the early EVO's. One all I think.
Both cars are featured in May's edition of Japanese Performance Magazine.
In my defense the scooby looks alot better than the early EVO's. One all I think.
Both cars are featured in May's edition of Japanese Performance Magazine.
12 July 2000, 07:51 PM
#39
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Simon,
I think the question I really was trying to raise is that which John Barker and company over at Evo have written about. And this is about the Evo's public road limits, can they be found and if an emergency situation puts the car out, how will it react and will the driver have enough feedback to bring the car back?
Note: If you look back to Evo's big 4WD test last year, you will read that they felt the Evo with yaw control was unpredicable in its action and so they picked the non-yaw control RS car to go to wales. And still once in Wales they felt the RS at least on the public road did not give any sense about what it would do on the limit.
I think the question I really was trying to raise is that which John Barker and company over at Evo have written about. And this is about the Evo's public road limits, can they be found and if an emergency situation puts the car out, how will it react and will the driver have enough feedback to bring the car back?
Note: If you look back to Evo's big 4WD test last year, you will read that they felt the Evo with yaw control was unpredicable in its action and so they picked the non-yaw control RS car to go to wales. And still once in Wales they felt the RS at least on the public road did not give any sense about what it would do on the limit.
12 July 2000, 07:57 PM
#40
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Hi all,
I was actually going to buy an evo 4 but the scoob tempted me more, and not just for any old reasons.
The points are, from the evo 4 to the 6, is when they added all the gizmos, no probs there, i could have afforded an evo 6 (but would have been well skint for awhile) and at the end of the day its taste.
The ride in the scooby is somewhat more refined on uk roads than the slightly harder ride of the mitsu, the scooby is also better on fuel, and as having a 60 litre tank instead of a 50 litre tank gives me that little extra range before fill ups.
Looks dont come into it, it is just which one you prefer, and having not been on a track day, i couldnt tell you which one handles better on a circuit, but what i will say is that both cars are the dogs blx and anyone who owns one or the other, all i can say is enjoy yourself!!!!
Tony
Ps both manufactures are a part of Fuji Heavy Industries anyway!!!
I was actually going to buy an evo 4 but the scoob tempted me more, and not just for any old reasons.
The points are, from the evo 4 to the 6, is when they added all the gizmos, no probs there, i could have afforded an evo 6 (but would have been well skint for awhile) and at the end of the day its taste.
The ride in the scooby is somewhat more refined on uk roads than the slightly harder ride of the mitsu, the scooby is also better on fuel, and as having a 60 litre tank instead of a 50 litre tank gives me that little extra range before fill ups.
Looks dont come into it, it is just which one you prefer, and having not been on a track day, i couldnt tell you which one handles better on a circuit, but what i will say is that both cars are the dogs blx and anyone who owns one or the other, all i can say is enjoy yourself!!!!
Tony
Ps both manufactures are a part of Fuji Heavy Industries anyway!!!
12 July 2000, 07:59 PM
#41
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Simon,
It's not that I feel so strongly about the subject, it's just that I am bored of these threads as they just go round in circles, with no chance of a result. It's all subjective, and therefore impossible to answer such a question.
Doh, and here I am answering to this damned thread again!
Geezer
It's not that I feel so strongly about the subject, it's just that I am bored of these threads as they just go round in circles, with no chance of a result. It's all subjective, and therefore impossible to answer such a question.
Doh, and here I am answering to this damned thread again!
Geezer
12 July 2000, 08:05 PM
#42
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Simon
I hate to disagree with you but the AYC will create oversteer as a function of its operation. The AYC controls the amount of torque split to the rear axle by measuring steering and throttle input and the longitudinal and latitudinal g forces. For example turn a right hand bend AYC directs torque to the outside rear left wheel thus creating a turning moment around the cars centre dialling out understeer. However once you've lost all understeer if you stay on the throttle the car follows through to oversteer if you follow my drift (no pun intended). It doesn't just stop at a position of neutrality unless you modulate the steering and throttle inputs with a view to achieving this.
The AYC is a pretty unpredictable thing, and onlookers probably think you are a very untidy driver simply because it is very difficult to anticipate the amount of understeer the device will dial out often leaving you on corner exit with too much steering lock on and a whiff of oversteer if you can picture that.
I've been sat along side you around MIRA in my old RB5 and have the utmost of respect for your skill and knowledge. However I promise you the AYC will make the car oversteer as well.
Steve
I hate to disagree with you but the AYC will create oversteer as a function of its operation. The AYC controls the amount of torque split to the rear axle by measuring steering and throttle input and the longitudinal and latitudinal g forces. For example turn a right hand bend AYC directs torque to the outside rear left wheel thus creating a turning moment around the cars centre dialling out understeer. However once you've lost all understeer if you stay on the throttle the car follows through to oversteer if you follow my drift (no pun intended). It doesn't just stop at a position of neutrality unless you modulate the steering and throttle inputs with a view to achieving this.
The AYC is a pretty unpredictable thing, and onlookers probably think you are a very untidy driver simply because it is very difficult to anticipate the amount of understeer the device will dial out often leaving you on corner exit with too much steering lock on and a whiff of oversteer if you can picture that.
I've been sat along side you around MIRA in my old RB5 and have the utmost of respect for your skill and knowledge. However I promise you the AYC will make the car oversteer as well.
Steve
12 July 2000, 08:15 PM
#43
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Hi Steve
You sound like you know what you're talking about..
My appologies, and thank you for correcting me.
I would be grateful if you could explain further though. I have only noticed the oversteer REDUCTION aspects of the AYC, so I would love to understand it if there is more than I have noticed..
It seems a touch weird though as Anti-Yaw-Control should surely be there to reduce yaw, not increase it?
Thanks again
Regards
Simon
PS Geezer - LOL
You sound like you know what you're talking about..
My appologies, and thank you for correcting me.
I would be grateful if you could explain further though. I have only noticed the oversteer REDUCTION aspects of the AYC, so I would love to understand it if there is more than I have noticed..
It seems a touch weird though as Anti-Yaw-Control should surely be there to reduce yaw, not increase it?
Thanks again
Regards
Simon
PS Geezer - LOL
12 July 2000, 09:04 PM
#44
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Mr Bolton
Its simple you need artifical aids for your driving, the rally course proved that
Real men dont need AYC but then the women on the day didnt either
Anyway EVO mag says my cars an EVO eater so it is. Go back and drool over copies of Autocar and their modified press cars with inaccurate figures. I'm sure Mr Goodwin owns shares in Ralliart.
Jonathan
ps Do you still turn up to track days in a Subaru Rally jacket ?. You know you'll be back soon. Ive been lurking on the EVO list and you know there's more style here.
[This message has been edited by Jonathan (edited 12-07-2000).]
Its simple you need artifical aids for your driving, the rally course proved that
Real men dont need AYC but then the women on the day didnt either
Anyway EVO mag says my cars an EVO eater so it is. Go back and drool over copies of Autocar and their modified press cars with inaccurate figures. I'm sure Mr Goodwin owns shares in Ralliart.
Jonathan
ps Do you still turn up to track days in a Subaru Rally jacket ?. You know you'll be back soon. Ive been lurking on the EVO list and you know there's more style here.
[This message has been edited by Jonathan (edited 12-07-2000).]
12 July 2000, 09:31 PM
#45
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Why do so many people slag off AYC. I've seen loads of Scooby and EVO RS owners say they don't want artificial driving aids because they're for wimps. What about 4WD, power steering, ABS, brake servos, etc? These all help those of us who accept we need all the help we can get! If you want to get back to basics, buy a Caterham or Elise.
12 July 2000, 09:41 PM
#46
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Hi Simon.......I can only relate my personal experiences to describe what occurs for example:
Typically on a roundabout accelerate to a point where the car starts to understeer, boot the throttle and without altering your steering input the car will lose the understeer and swing round into oversteer which can be held in a slide for varying lengths of time. Repeat as necessary. No need to brake, back off sharply, turn in more, hand brake etc.
Check out this site for basic technically information on the AYC. Please note that it states that the device is designed for safety and driving FUN. Reading between the lines this simply means it also induces whooping great power slides.
Typically on a roundabout accelerate to a point where the car starts to understeer, boot the throttle and without altering your steering input the car will lose the understeer and swing round into oversteer which can be held in a slide for varying lengths of time. Repeat as necessary. No need to brake, back off sharply, turn in more, hand brake etc.
Check out this site for basic technically information on the AYC. Please note that it states that the device is designed for safety and driving FUN. Reading between the lines this simply means it also induces whooping great power slides.
12 July 2000, 11:39 PM
#48
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Hi Steve
Thanks for that info..
Reading it though, I still feel that the the system is there to reduce yaw angles "as close to the ideal as possible".
I am genuinely open to contradiction, and being shown the error of my ways, etc. but I think it is possible that you are confusing the natural characteristics of the car with the effect AYC is having.
If you took your car and turned off the AYC, the scenario you described above would be possible anyway.
If you nail it mid bend, you are likely to oversteer. What the AYC does is limit that to an eaily controllable amount.
Part of the system also appears to be monitoring traction etc, so there will definately be some front end traction issues which will help turn-in under power, but I can really see no reason for them designing AYC to induce oversteer.
All it would do is make the cars less safe and slower around tracks (if that's important) in standard trim.
Like I say, I may be wrong, but..
Are you sure that the oversteer that's happening has been artificially induced by AYC or that the AYC is simply controlling it after it has happened?
Certainly the latter is the feeling I get when driving them.
I would be interested in your comments.
Cheers
Simon
Thanks for that info..
Reading it though, I still feel that the the system is there to reduce yaw angles "as close to the ideal as possible".
I am genuinely open to contradiction, and being shown the error of my ways, etc. but I think it is possible that you are confusing the natural characteristics of the car with the effect AYC is having.
If you took your car and turned off the AYC, the scenario you described above would be possible anyway.
If you nail it mid bend, you are likely to oversteer. What the AYC does is limit that to an eaily controllable amount.
Part of the system also appears to be monitoring traction etc, so there will definately be some front end traction issues which will help turn-in under power, but I can really see no reason for them designing AYC to induce oversteer.
All it would do is make the cars less safe and slower around tracks (if that's important) in standard trim.
Like I say, I may be wrong, but..
Are you sure that the oversteer that's happening has been artificially induced by AYC or that the AYC is simply controlling it after it has happened?
Certainly the latter is the feeling I get when driving them.
I would be interested in your comments.
Cheers
Simon
13 July 2000, 10:24 AM
#49
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Hi Simon,
You may well be correct. Perhaps I am simply comparing the attitudes of the Impreza against the EVO in the same circumstances and thinking its being caused by the AYC rather than perhaps the natural handling dynamics of the car. It is certainly a totally different driving experience.
If you are correct then I am not sure that AYC has much effect on oversteer after its happened as the rear end seems to behave pretty much like an Impreza in such circumstances.
I go back to what I said earlier though. It is difficult to judge just how much the AYC will dial out understeer. Consequently you tend to exit corners with too much lock under power which immediately puts the car into oversteer before you have adjusted your steering angle. Does that make sense!?
I'll book in at MIRA shortly. Any places this weekend?
Steve
You may well be correct. Perhaps I am simply comparing the attitudes of the Impreza against the EVO in the same circumstances and thinking its being caused by the AYC rather than perhaps the natural handling dynamics of the car. It is certainly a totally different driving experience.
If you are correct then I am not sure that AYC has much effect on oversteer after its happened as the rear end seems to behave pretty much like an Impreza in such circumstances.
I go back to what I said earlier though. It is difficult to judge just how much the AYC will dial out understeer. Consequently you tend to exit corners with too much lock under power which immediately puts the car into oversteer before you have adjusted your steering angle. Does that make sense!?
I'll book in at MIRA shortly. Any places this weekend?
Steve
13 July 2000, 10:35 AM
#50
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Hi all,
nice debate, enjoying this.
doesnt ayc stand for 'Active Yaw Control" and not 'Anti Yaw Control', negating its descriptive purpose?
Cem
(hello marc, no, didnt buy a spoiler in the end, trying to sell it)
[This message has been edited by Blow Dog (edited 13-07-2000).]
nice debate, enjoying this.
doesnt ayc stand for 'Active Yaw Control" and not 'Anti Yaw Control', negating its descriptive purpose?
Cem
(hello marc, no, didnt buy a spoiler in the end, trying to sell it)
[This message has been edited by Blow Dog (edited 13-07-2000).]
13 July 2000, 10:44 AM
#51
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I'm actually instructing this Sunday...
(Colin's on Holiday)
I've just checked with Don though and (not surprisingly) he's fully booked this weekend.
Stick your name and email address into
(Colin's on Holiday)
I've just checked with Don though and (not surprisingly) he's fully booked this weekend.
Stick your name and email address into
13 July 2000, 01:04 PM
#53
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Guys,
If the Active Yawn Control system contains the magic fairy dust that makes evos understeer less, how come the RS demonstrates the same front end control without all the electrotrickery?
I spent a fair bit of time wondering why such similar cars (evo and scoob) differ in turn in. The differences I felt most applicable were... different rear suspension (evo is true "multi-link", scooby, apparently, isn't)... not much I can do about this without going to STI... and secondly, the Evo 5 and 6 are both fitted with front torsen style limited slip differentials... BINGO! Having driven a front drive car with such a diff fitted, I was fairly confident this was a significant factor in the handling differences.
I now have a Quaife automatic torque biasing differential in my STI... I will get back to you when I've had more time to re-learn the cars handling. My initial findings are very positive, with one major proviso... I don't think that just anyone will be happy/safe driving such a setup!
The evo GSR has AYC, which will help control the overall handling envelope, dulling down under and oversteer in favour of neutral balance... my STI doesn't have this gizmo, so it's up to the driver to control the car... which now has a new set of signals and reactions bolted on over and above the original limits of front wheel grip.
What I am trying to say is that I would not recommend fitting an ATB to just anyone... in the same way that I would not recommend an STI Type R car (driver adjustable centre diff, fully locking rear axle diff and no ABS) to just anyone. You need to have an understanding and respect for the physics of what's going on at all times, something that an EVO with AYC will do for you to a certain extent.
Oh yes, and with an ATB fitted, the I'm sure the car could still be pushed to understeer, but it will take a lot more effort to do it! Bye bye to that evo advantage then?!
Moray
If the Active Yawn Control system contains the magic fairy dust that makes evos understeer less, how come the RS demonstrates the same front end control without all the electrotrickery?
I spent a fair bit of time wondering why such similar cars (evo and scoob) differ in turn in. The differences I felt most applicable were... different rear suspension (evo is true "multi-link", scooby, apparently, isn't)... not much I can do about this without going to STI... and secondly, the Evo 5 and 6 are both fitted with front torsen style limited slip differentials... BINGO!
Having driven a front drive car with such a diff fitted, I was fairly confident this was a significant factor in the handling differences.I now have a Quaife automatic torque biasing differential in my STI... I will get back to you when I've had more time to re-learn the cars handling. My initial findings are very positive, with one major proviso... I don't think that just anyone will be happy/safe driving such a setup!
The evo GSR has AYC, which will help control the overall handling envelope, dulling down under and oversteer in favour of neutral balance... my STI doesn't have this gizmo, so it's up to the driver to control the car... which now has a new set of signals and reactions bolted on over and above the original limits of front wheel grip.
What I am trying to say is that I would not recommend fitting an ATB to just anyone... in the same way that I would not recommend an STI Type R car (driver adjustable centre diff, fully locking rear axle diff and no ABS) to just anyone. You need to have an understanding and respect for the physics of what's going on at all times, something that an EVO with AYC will do for you to a certain extent.
Oh yes, and with an ATB fitted, the I'm sure the car could still be pushed to understeer, but it will take a lot more effort to do it!
Bye bye to that evo advantage then?! Moray
13 July 2000, 05:06 PM
#54
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Hi Moray......In the interests of containing mis information I feel it necessary to correct you on a couple of points.
The RS demonstrates the same front end control as the GSR, because the front end is the same.
AYC splits torque left or right under power to the rear wheels only. Therefore the front end grip and turn in (unless under power) are unaffected by the AYC.
The front diff is not a Torsen limited slip device, but a regular "free" diff similar to the Scooby.
A road car which has a neutral balance on the road is hardly a car to be scoffed at. If you wish to use a car on the road which endangers other road users and yourself because of erratic handling habits, fine.
Steve
The RS demonstrates the same front end control as the GSR, because the front end is the same.
AYC splits torque left or right under power to the rear wheels only. Therefore the front end grip and turn in (unless under power) are unaffected by the AYC.
The front diff is not a Torsen limited slip device, but a regular "free" diff similar to the Scooby.
A road car which has a neutral balance on the road is hardly a car to be scoffed at. If you wish to use a car on the road which endangers other road users and yourself because of erratic handling habits, fine.
Steve
13 July 2000, 07:38 PM
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Simon.
Well if that's the case, all EVO VI owners are either driving very gingerly on the track or they're all pants!
Andrew.
Nice to hear from you again. I normally stay out of debates too....unless there's Cossies involved!
Regarding times, would you say you drove your car fairly 'enthusiastically' at Donno, or do you just potter round like most other EVO drivers must be doing?
Stef.
Well if that's the case, all EVO VI owners are either driving very gingerly on the track or they're all pants!
Andrew.
Nice to hear from you again. I normally stay out of debates too....unless there's Cossies involved!
Regarding times, would you say you drove your car fairly 'enthusiastically' at Donno, or do you just potter round like most other EVO drivers must be doing?
Stef.
13 July 2000, 11:16 PM
#57
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Hiya Stef (The Comedy Killer )
Steve
I have no idea what the diff actually is in the front of an EVO but..
You mention that front end grip is not affected by AYC (unless under power - how?) and that the reason that the front end grip is the same in the RS is that the front end is the same.
This kinda changes what you were saying earlier.
Moray made a very good point that, whilst you feel that the AYC is the thing which is giving such good turn in by dialing out understeer, the RS also has this great turn-in without the AYC.
Certainly my experience backs this up. The RS's I have driven have been incredibly good fun cars to drive, lots of front end bite and turn in (same as the GSR), but none of the restriction after the car starts to go sideways.
I would love to get to the bottom of this, as I was surprised that I had not noticed the AYC effects you described, but always love learning.
Cheers
Simon
PS. Additionally, you really should not condemn Moray for having his car set up in the way he has. A car with lots of front end grip CERTAINLY does not make it a dangerous car. In fact, in the right hands it would be a safer car.
Moray is a competent driver and puts enough thought into the effects of driver inputs to IMHO be in control of the car and not push it to a point where he is 'out on a limb'.
Like Moray said, he would not recomend it to everyone, and I have to say this is wise. The same way I would not recomend everyone took a McLaren F1 round a race track. But the McLaren F1 is certainly not a dangerous car, and is probably one of the best set-up cars there is.
[This message has been edited by Simon de Banke (edited 13-07-2000).]
)Steve
I have no idea what the diff actually is in the front of an EVO but..
You mention that front end grip is not affected by AYC (unless under power - how?) and that the reason that the front end grip is the same in the RS is that the front end is the same.
This kinda changes what you were saying earlier.
Moray made a very good point that, whilst you feel that the AYC is the thing which is giving such good turn in by dialing out understeer, the RS also has this great turn-in without the AYC.
Certainly my experience backs this up. The RS's I have driven have been incredibly good fun cars to drive, lots of front end bite and turn in (same as the GSR), but none of the restriction after the car starts to go sideways.
I would love to get to the bottom of this, as I was surprised that I had not noticed the AYC effects you described, but always love learning.
Cheers
Simon
PS. Additionally, you really should not condemn Moray for having his car set up in the way he has. A car with lots of front end grip CERTAINLY does not make it a dangerous car. In fact, in the right hands it would be a safer car.
Moray is a competent driver and puts enough thought into the effects of driver inputs to IMHO be in control of the car and not push it to a point where he is 'out on a limb'.
Like Moray said, he would not recomend it to everyone, and I have to say this is wise. The same way I would not recomend everyone took a McLaren F1 round a race track. But the McLaren F1 is certainly not a dangerous car, and is probably one of the best set-up cars there is.
[This message has been edited by Simon de Banke (edited 13-07-2000).]
14 July 2000, 03:08 PM
#59
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Hi Simon,
Just so you know, I'm not poking fun at Moray. I just thought he was jibing my comments so I was simply jibing back. I'm not here to make enemies, hell I only got rid of my Scooby three weeks ago!
I've read so much incorrect information about the EVO on this BBS over the last few months. Perhaps that's naturally seeing this is Scoobynet. I've not in the past been inclined to join in the debate, because one EVO owner (whether he is right or wrong) is likely to get a good ear bashing when pitching arguments against 3000 odd Impreza enthusiast. So taking your points raised in turn:
According to the workshop manual, the four wheel drive layout on the GSR is front Mechanical diff, centre Viscous Coupler, and rear Torque Transfer Differencial operated through the AYC mechanism. Ditto the RS except the rear diff is replace with a LSD, thus a similar layout to your regular Impreza.
With respect to front end grip of the RS without AYC, if you have driven some then you are much better placed to know how they compare. However all I was saying was that the suspension and dampers are identical on a standard RS to those on a standard GSR, but because most people either have the RS lowered or the suspension changed completely direct comparisons with the GSR become more difficult. I'll mail you off line with some dates I can make MIRA, and we can investigate further if you like.
Most RSs' which the press get hold of usually have suspension and engine mods too, so again comparison and understanding the effects of AYC on the GSR are no easier to compare through reading any such magazine articles.
Steve
[This message has been edited by Steve Prockter (edited 14-07-2000).]
Just so you know, I'm not poking fun at Moray. I just thought he was jibing my comments so I was simply jibing back. I'm not here to make enemies, hell I only got rid of my Scooby three weeks ago!
I've read so much incorrect information about the EVO on this BBS over the last few months. Perhaps that's naturally seeing this is Scoobynet. I've not in the past been inclined to join in the debate, because one EVO owner (whether he is right or wrong) is likely to get a good ear bashing when pitching arguments against 3000 odd Impreza enthusiast. So taking your points raised in turn:
According to the workshop manual, the four wheel drive layout on the GSR is front Mechanical diff, centre Viscous Coupler, and rear Torque Transfer Differencial operated through the AYC mechanism. Ditto the RS except the rear diff is replace with a LSD, thus a similar layout to your regular Impreza.
With respect to front end grip of the RS without AYC, if you have driven some then you are much better placed to know how they compare. However all I was saying was that the suspension and dampers are identical on a standard RS to those on a standard GSR, but because most people either have the RS lowered or the suspension changed completely direct comparisons with the GSR become more difficult. I'll mail you off line with some dates I can make MIRA, and we can investigate further if you like.
Most RSs' which the press get hold of usually have suspension and engine mods too, so again comparison and understanding the effects of AYC on the GSR are no easier to compare through reading any such magazine articles.
Steve
[This message has been edited by Steve Prockter (edited 14-07-2000).]
14 July 2000, 03:37 PM
#60
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Steve Procktor,
Just to clarify a few points, in the interests of preventing the spread of disinformation:
1. The Evo 6 is fitted with a front limited slip torsen style differential. Ring Mitsubishi if you don't believe me!
.
The TorSen (short for Torque Sensing) differential is purely mechanical, working on the unidirectional drive properties of a ring and helical gear combination.
2. I stated that I was discounting the AYC from my investigation because the RS and GSR models both exhibit the good turn in/front end control I was interested in.
3. My car was the first (guinnee pig express job again) to be "de-bump steered" (you may have read about this process elsewhere on the BBS) at powerstation... I know about neutral handling cars, honest.
4. My car now exhibits a neutral to progressive (not "erratic" ) slight power oversteer handling tendency that, as I carefully stated in my posting, will not suit just anyone. I also pointed out that I am going to give a future update or two on this change when I have had the chance to fully familiarise myself to it.
5. If anything, the new diff makes the car safer to drive on the public road, so please don't make unfounded comments about my "endangering other road users", after all, I can't recall ever driving you anywhere, so how would you know how I drive?
Lastly, as you seem to know about Evos, can you tell me why they win so much praise for their handling and grip on the road when they are setup for neutral to power oversteer handling? After all, anything that handles like that is a danger to any carbon based lifeform that goes near it! Oh yes, and while you are at it, please explain rear-wheel drive handling!
Moray
PS: This is a very interesting site which is full of technical info... maybe you would like a look at it? :
Just to clarify a few points, in the interests of preventing the spread of disinformation:
1. The Evo 6 is fitted with a front limited slip torsen style differential. Ring Mitsubishi if you don't believe me!
.The TorSen (short for Torque Sensing) differential is purely mechanical, working on the unidirectional drive properties of a ring and helical gear combination.
2. I stated that I was discounting the AYC from my investigation because the RS and GSR models both exhibit the good turn in/front end control I was interested in.
3. My car was the first (guinnee pig express job again) to be "de-bump steered" (you may have read about this process elsewhere on the BBS) at powerstation... I know about neutral handling cars, honest.
4. My car now exhibits a neutral to progressive (not "erratic"
) slight power oversteer handling tendency that, as I carefully stated in my posting, will not suit just anyone. I also pointed out that I am going to give a future update or two on this change when I have had the chance to fully familiarise myself to it.5. If anything, the new diff makes the car safer to drive on the public road, so please don't make unfounded comments about my "endangering other road users", after all, I can't recall ever driving you anywhere, so how would you know how I drive?
Lastly, as you seem to know about Evos, can you tell me why they win so much praise for their handling and grip on the road when they are setup for neutral to power oversteer handling? After all, anything that handles like that is a danger to any carbon based lifeform that goes near it!
Oh yes, and while you are at it, please explain rear-wheel drive handling! Moray
PS: This is a very interesting site which is full of technical info... maybe you would like a look at it? :