gsm1

It's not only American troops that are a problem, read this Times article about the private security firms hiring any old convict and muscle head from the West to play out their Rambo fantasies in Iraq.

I feel for the hostages, especially their families. No one deserves this but I do have more sympathy for workers from poor countries and aid workers on little money.

Moses, according to the US (and their puppets) all these hostage takers are led by Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi. This guy must really get around. It was also according to the US, much earlier on in the invasion, that it was only foreign fighters attacking coalition troops while Iraqis were showering them with flowers. Not much the US says turns out to be true.
Regardless, the idea that he is going to use these two women to aid a nuclear plot is certainly far fetched. You haven't been smoking any puff tonight, have ya?

mart360

Moses


has it occured to you that people are pissed off with the events that happening in iraq and wish to see some action taken.

yes i thouroughly agree that the hostage taking is abhorrent and somthing should be done.

the point of my post was to highlight

a) why dont we start giving as good as we get.

b) the reason we dont, is due to the political pc namby pamby approach we adopt.

as i said prehaps its time to stand up and show them that we have had enough...



just to make thing clear...

my stance is this

i disagree with the situatuion in iraq, i think the hostage taking is bang out of order, and i think we ought to kick **** and do somthing about it.

its my viewpoint, and if poeple dont like it.. tough

i dont see you having a pop at pslewis, for his comments, so please leave me to have mine


mart

moses

lol @ gsm haha no smoking baccie here my friend haha

but the thing is we dont know how much al qaida already knows about nuclear weapons, yes its far fetched but hey, they know alot of old russian scientists, retired ones supposedly

but these 2 ladies are very dangerous mate, no way they should be let out, can u imagine a chemical bomb in our own back yard, no way man, shouldnt even be given a chance.


and mart usa already gives the iraqis alot, iraqis say their giving it back mate, aint that true

Taff107

In essence I agree with what Mart said. Unless we change tactics against these lunatics, how can we possibly hope to 'win' against them? How can you fight a 'war' against these animals who have no respect for any form of life, theirs or anyone elses?
IMHO, just as sickening are these legal ****** who are representing Iraqi people in their claims against British soldiers. I just hope that they understand the gravity of their actions.

Taff107

Oh and Moses, before you make any assumptions or implications, I'd be more than happy to go back there if they 'loosened the leash' of the western forces.

gsm1

No way, mate. I think they have dealt with chemical and biological weapons, not nuclear. Anyway, they didn't create sod all under Saddam, as we well know!
The only people that have gone on about Al-Qaeda using chemical or biological weapons is Tony 'I talk sh*t' Blair and his mate Bush. The time Anthrax was sent in the mail in America it led back to a US government scientist who had also written a book about terrorists using biological and chemical weapons. These are the only people who have talked about it. Al-Qaeda have only ever used planes and explosives. Don't let the bullsh*tters mess your mind bruv!

moses

suppose your right gsm

and also bush did glamourise and gave them the silly names like miss anthrax, its so silly aint it and miss germ for the other one


taff dont those terrorists say same about the western forces that their animals and bomb and kill people merciless, just last week they killed 47 civilians didnt they

gsm1

Don't bother, mate. This is a guy who goes into a country that never attacked him, thinks its okay for Brit troops to abuse Iraqis and then when some of them get pissed off and fight back he calls them 'terrorists' and 'animals'.

Yeah, I suppose Brit troops kicking someone to death have real respect for life, do they?

moses

well said gsm, makes me sick when i read the posts they put up, they attack a country that did f*** all to us and we go and bomb them to hell and of course were gonna help fill their terrorist ranks for our greed and imperialism.

lots of these terrorists werent terrorists one time, they became terrorists afterwards coz they know the enemy wants to take over and control the land and i hear in the papers all the time, herald, independent and mirror, express and guardian etc that israeli army are teaching the marines about guerilla warfare and basically how to bomb civilians etc and bulldoze homes

Tim-Grove

Saw that video today, and I just can’t believe that one human can do that to another.

I say pull every last western man and woman out of the Middle East, let the animals kill each other. They don’t want us there they never have, they don’t want western style democracies, they don’t want help from outside so just leave them to it.

Just keep a firm eye on them and the minute they become a threat to the outside world fookin wipe them out every last man, woman and child. **** them!! Only an animal can put something to death in such a horrific and inhuman manner so treat them like animals, cull them.

As you can tell that video has had a profound affect on me. Yesterday I probably wouldn’t have wrote anything so strongly worded, but now I firmly believe we shouldn’t be there, we’re just stirring up a hornets nest that’s just waiting to spew out thousands evil butchers hell bent on murdering anyone loosely associated with anything western.

scott8629

A British Soldier goes where the goverment the public voted in tells him to go, He/she can not say I do not believe in this cause im not going, The Armed forces is not a democracy.

You can not comment about the behaviour of the British soldiers out there, im sure on the whole they are doing a valuable and professional job, for not too great pay. How do you know how you will react to a hidden enemy taking pot shots at you every day. Until you are out there living in the sh*t do comment on the behaviour of troops because you do not know how you, yourself would behave.

Iwan

Agree totally. Apart from solving the immediate problem by wiping them out you need to make hostage taking totally un-viable, make the consequences so unpalatable that the terrorists actually think twice about what they're doing.

I blame the media partly, they print headlines like "another hostage killed" which totally sanitises and understates what's happening. They should show the uncut videos to let people know what a living human being having their head sawn off with a 10 inch carving knife actually looks and sounds like.

I've seen most of the recently released videos and am convinced that 99.9% of people (and i include the normal decent Iraqis here) would find them so horrible and shocking that the terrorists would pretty much lose all their support overnight.

Pbr

And I suppose you would consider someone who sawed off an innocent mans head with a bowie knife to be a freedom fighter would you? You call that "fighting back?" Don't make me laugh.

That's allright then, as long as Al-Quada only has access to chemical and biological weapons and not nuclear, I'll sleep soundly at night. Your naivete is astounding.

Geezer

I can't believe people still come out with this 'wipe them all out' or 'how can a human do this to another' ****!

Firstly, you cannot wipe them all out. Islamic fundamentalism relies heavily on martyrdom, and uses Jihad to persuade those likely to be sympathetic to their cause to join.

The more you kill, the more you create. It's a downward spiral that just results in more death and suffering, for both sides.

In the end, there has to be a dialogue. We did not wipe out the IRA, we came to the negotiating table with them. And now the bombing has stopped. OK, there is still activity from them, but only against each other, they are no longer killing UK security forces or civilians.

As for the second comment, well we've been here before on other threads. It is extremely unpleasant to see someone die this way, but then it is extremely unpleasant to watch anyone die anyway, unless they shot through the head or strapped to a large explosive device! (I don't mean it's pleasant to watch them that way, just that ending a human life requires a violent act that will result in alot of suffering for the victim).

The fact that we are able to see it so readily, that they advertise their brutality is what makes it so abhorrent to us. Make no mistake, Iraqis will have suffered equally gruesome deaths at the hands of coalition forces, but they cover it up. It makes it no less unpleasant.

Personally, I wouldn't go out there for all the tea in China, but some do, either for financial gain, or because they really want to help.

For the latter, they deserve some respect.

Geezer

Geezer

But it wouldn't, would it? You may kill whatever his name is in Fallujah, but someone will just take his place. Even if you nuked Fallujah and made it uninhabitable, they would just go somewhere else.

There is an endless supply of these people waiting to fill the gaps made by those who become 'martyrs'.

That's why the Yanks lost in Vietnam, and they will get a bloody nose in Iraq, they cannot fight on these terms.

Geezer

Iwan

Ordinarily i'd agree, it workked with the IRA because a compromise was achievable. But the problem with the extreme moslem fundamentalists (and Al Qaida as a whole) is that their long term goal is to wipe out the infidels, full stop. Where do you start negotiating? It's hard to negotiate when there's zero chance of a compromise. It's also tricky when they're not interested in coming out into the open to negotiate.

Geezer

That is very true, but you do not necessarily have to negotiate with the likes of Al Qaeda. The underlying problem is Israel/Palestine and US support for them and general poor US foreign policy. If you address those issues, then the terrorists find it more difficult to justify their cause.

Problem is, the Yanks are as stubborn and stupid as the fundamentalists!

Geezer

Iwan

Now that i'd agree with, though i think it's more 'Dubya' than the yanks in general.

gsm1

Did I say that? No, so don't put words in my mouth.

Speaks the man of real world knowledge. Stop talking words out of context for a start. You're more likely to be run over by a bus than ever meet a terrorist let alone be killed by one, so if you're losing sleep about it then you really must be naive.

Scott8629, that was in response to another post. Would you defend the actions of Iraqis the way you do British soldiers? After all they've seen some pretty horrific things as well, like their loved ones blown to pieces by coalition bombs and bullets. And they are in their own country.

And just to put things into perspective, these horrific executions are being carried out by a handful of people in a nation of millions. Yet, every Iraqi gets tarred with the same brush, but never the other way around.

You still miss the fact that Iraqis were never involved in all this before you attacked their country. You invade their country then wonder where all these terrorists have come from.

Leslie

I think when they when they talk about infidels Iwan, its a term to whip up the followers that they are going to use to carry out the terrorist actions. Rather like our leader now telling us that the first war in Iraq was to wipe out Saddam instead of what he actually told us, ie to stop the threat at that moment of WMDs. And that we are now in a second war to fight the terrorists. When did the first war stop and the second one begin I wonder. The fighting has never stopped, just escalated!

Its all a big bluster changing the reasoning to suit the happenings of the moment as their earlier statements are proved to be untrue and new things happen which were never considered in the first place. Just another example of the gross incompetence which surrounds this sorry lot at the top.

The fundamentalists are after world power, that is what drives them and the only way to win is to cut off the head of the snake. Trouble is, I think that our own leaders have got the same ambitions. That is when our problems will really start.

Les

Iwan

Agree totally. I had no problem with Blair sending us into Iraq again. I just wish he'd been honest and stuck to the line that it was a continuation of the 1990/1 hostilities, and a consequence of Saddams numerous breaches of the ceasefire agreement that he signed.

Why he felt the need to whip up spurious scare stories about the imminent threat of WMD attacks on the UK i don't know. As far as i could see they had ample grounds for going in, legally in terms of existing UN resolutions, and morally for humanitarian reasons.

Personally i think we should totally pull out of the 'helping others' business and look after our own. Spending the money we would have spent on aid and military action on fortifying the UKs borders and stepping up our security and intelligence gathering in a big way.

I'm sure that would be better for us, and less offensive to the fundamentalists.

gsm1

The IRA had a Marxist ideology and wanted a united Ireland. I don't see much Marxism or a united Ireland.

Fallujah is a Sunni stronghold and nothing to do with Islamic fundamentalism. These people don't want the USA in their land, it's that simple. Either they submit or we wipe them out, is that the solution here? The US has already dropped numerous bombs on Fallujah for months killing civilians and it has only got worse.

Pbr

If you're going to respond to my posts in this way then make sure you have understood them fully first. I said:
Notice the question mark at the end of the sentence. That means it was a question directed to you, NOT a quote that I have attributed to you. And I would not have needed to ask the question if your posts were clear in the first place.
You have no idea who I am or what "real world knowledge" I have, so this comment is baseless. Even more so when your main contribution to the Iraq debate so far has been to simply regurgitate the opinion pages of The Guardian newspaper.
Ahh, so because the probability of a terrorist attack affecting me is statistically small, that means I shouldn't be worried about it? I'm sure the train commuters in Madrid or the workers in the WTC thought the same. I repeat: Your naivete is astounding.

mart360

prehaps the answer is to use what they fear most?

it,s evident that talking is not going to work, despite what some of the posts on here would believe.

it would appear that they follow there learned teachings to the letter and believe that all there killing is approved by there god, and all will be forgiven..

then prehaps we should adopt the same attitude,, we dont kill them, but expose them to there worst fears, and in doing so make them lepers within there own faction..

after all if there that contaminated!! they wont be acceptable to anyone

Mart

Geezer

Why is it evident that talking won't work? No one has attempted it yet, so what do you base that upon?

Geezer

Diablo

Just so we are clear gsm1, what side of what fence are YOU coming from on this?