lem0ncurd

Milo is WRONG, and is confusing his nutritional aims as a bodybuilder with what is actually good for you. The Government, the World health Organisaion and most nutritional bodies recommend that we reduce our intake of red meat to no more than twice a week and less if possible. The American Diabetic Association state that there is a positive relationship between a vegetarian diet and reduced risk for several chronic degenerative diseases and conditions, including obesity, coronary artery disease, hypertension, DIABETES and some types of cancer.

There is no doubt that diets high in protein, especially red meat can lead to a variety of cancers in the long term, and in the short terms foul up your digestive system, slowly blocking the colon and the intestines with mucus and putrifying meat and their ability to absorb nutrients. Imlach's reference is a good starting point:

"Should I be worried about getting enough protein on a vegetarian/vegan diet?

No, not as long as you're taking in enough calories. Official recommendations suggest that eating 8% of our daily energy as protein will provide an adequate amount. National and international recommendations for protein intake are based on animal sources of protein such as meat, cow's milk and eggs. Plant proteins may be less digestible because of intrinsic differences in the nature of the protein and the presence of other factors such as fibre, which may reduce protein digestibility by as much as 10%. Nevertheless, dietary studies show the adequacy of plant foods, as sole sources of protein as does the experience of healthy vegans of all ages.

The main protein foods in a vegan diet are the pulses (peas, beans and lentils), nuts, seeds and grains, all of which are relatively energy dense. As the average protein level in pulses is 27% of calories; in nuts and seeds 13%; and in grains 12%, it is easy to see that plant foods can supply the recommended amount of protein as long as the energy requirements are met.

The short answer is: "No, sufficient protein can be obtained by eating a variety of foods", but here is a longer explanation:

Protein is synthesized by the human body out of individual amino acids. The body breaks down food into individual amino acids and then reassembles the proteins it requires.

All amino acids must be present in the body to make proteins. Those that can be synthesized from other amino acids are called "unessential" amino acids. You can live on a diet deficient of these if you eat enough extra of the other amino acids to synthesize these. Those that cannot be synthesized from other amino acids are called "essential" amino acids and must be present in the diet.

Protein that contains all essential amino acids is called "complete" protein. Protein that contains some, but not all essential amino acids is called "incomplete" protein. It used to be believed that all amino acids must be eaten at the same time to form complete proteins. We now know that incomplete proteins can be stored in the body for many days to be combined with other incomplete proteins. As long as all essential amino acids are in the diet, it does not matter if the proteins are complete or incomplete.

The amount of protein recorded on food labels only lists the complete proteins. A product may contain much higher amounts of incomplete protein that is not listed. Combining such products may increase the total amount of protein beyond the levels expected.

The 1989 revision of the FDA's RDA suggests a protein intake of 44-63 grams. Many scientists think this number is too high. Most scientists agree with this number.

LC.

milo

this is because vegetarians dont eat as many foods that are fried or cooked in grease, NOT because they dont eat meat. dont confuse the type of food with the method of cooking.

its a little like saying "if you buy your lottery ticket from a tobacconist, you're more likely to die of lung cancer".. when you're actually MEANING "if you buy your lottery ticket from a tobacconist, chances are you also buy cigarettes there and smoke them".


interesting that bodybuilders who are eating several times as much protein as is "recommended" (in fact up to 10 times the recommended amount) do NOT suffer this any more than anyone else.

note that i am NOT suggesting that everyone should be eating 300g+ of protein per day btw, which u seem to be quite confused about.

there IS a healthy medium.

for an active person, particularly in any form of sport, it is proven that eating considerably more than 8% of energy as protein is not only safe, but beneficial.

lem0ncurd

Scientists believe that the diet of any animal corresponds to its anatomical and physiological system. Animals can be divided into three categories according to their natural diet. Carnivores such as lions, dogs and cats, live mostly on meat; herbivores such as cows, sheep and elephants, eat grass and leaves; and frugivores such as anthropoid apes, live on fruits, nuts, and grains. Men, herbivores and frugivores have an intestinal tract which is about twelve times their body length and their teeth are small and dull. The intestinal tracts of carnivores are only three times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly, and they have claws and sharp front teeth for tearing while no flat molars for grinding.

Carnivores have strong hydrochloric acid in their stomachs to digest meat, while men, herbivores and frugivores have stomach acid twenty times less strong than meat-eaters. In addition to these differences, carnivores have no pores and they perspire through their tongues to cool their bodies, while humans, herbivores and frugivores perspire through millions of pores on the skin. Flesh-eating carnivores have small salivary glands in their mouths because they do not need to predigest flesh. On the other hand, men, like other vegetarian animals, have well developed salivary glands, which are needed to predigest grains and fruits. From the above comparison, it is evident that man is vegetarian by nature.

It seems that because of circumstances over the past several thousand years of man's history, some men deviated from their natural diet and became omnivores, who eat both meat and plants. However, our anatomical and physiological features have remained similar to those of other vegetarian animals. It should be remarked that man cannot eat raw meat like carnivores do; we have to cook it, bake it, grill it or fry it..

LC.

milo

safe? sure, as long as you're getting sufficient amino acids from elsewhere. advisible or benificial? nope.

it's a whole load easier and more convenient to get sufficient aminos from sources such as chicken.

imlach

I don't think that is necessarily true.

Most, and I hate using this word, average people tend to have a fry-up once in a blue moon. Most nutritionally well educated people (non-vegi, or vegi) tend not to fry food, or deep-fry food. They often grill, poach, microwave, stew, and ocassionally pan-fry off some stuff using olive oil.

ie, making a lasagne. A meat version would involve frying off mince, onions, other veg, plum tomatoes, in a pan of olive oil, making a cheese sauce, and assembling it in the dish with the lasagne.

A vegi version would STILL involve frying off some onions, other veg, some kidney beans, plum tomatoes, in a pan of olive oil, making a cheese sauce, and assembling it in the dish with the lasagne.

Ditto for any pasta dish involving a tomato based sauce (meat or no meat).

In fact, because of perhaps more reliance on dairy products for protein, you could perhaps state that vegetarians could be eating more dairy fat.

As I said, my wife is vegetarian, and I find myself mainly eating vegetarian meals at home, but if we go out, or have carry-out, I'll have a meat dish. Or, if I had, say, homemade pizza, I'll put tuna on mine.

Don't miss having less meat.

imlach

Plenty of the essential amino acids in dairy products and pulses/beans etc.

milo

i would LOVE to see the scientific proof of this and how they arrived at this wrong conclusion.

fact is, both scientific and anecdotal evidence over many years has proven that amino acids are NOT stored in the body. instead, any not used in metabolism are converted to glucose or fat and stored in the liver. this is metabolism 101. its a design flaw in humans and no amount of veggie "amino acids are stored" propaganda will change this.

sure, u can make up a complete protein from incomplete proteins *in one go*... but good luck getting enough. which is why active people, in particular those who participate in spots, take in complete proteins. and meat happens to be a good and convenient source of this.

milo

dairy i have never disputed. i get huge amounts of quality protein from eggs.

pulses and beans... have you compared the amino acid protein in 100g of pulses vs. 100g of chicken?

lem0ncurd

"interesting that bodybuilders who are eating several times as much protein as is "recommended" (in fact up to 10 times the recommended amount) do NOT suffer this any more than anyone else."

The internal long terms effect of eating meat is not something that can be detected in obvious symptoms. Inspecting the intestines and colon is not an easy task! Only when people go on intensive colon cleansing diets do you see the **** (literally) that builds up inside the colon and intestinal walls as a consequence of eating animal products. The body is not designed to eat meat, so attempts to combat meat ingestion by coating it in mucus. This mucus over the years binds with the intestinal walls, releasing toxins into the body (which may help to cause cancer) and also inhibit the body's ability to absorb nutrients from food.

Milo, if you eat over 2lbs of meat a day, I daren't imagine the dire state of your colon and digestive system. THink of the enormous pressure and strain that you are inflicting on your liver and kidneys which cannot and were not designed to digest meat..

imlach

...and so because she got cancer (I think breast?), and she was a vegetarian, it's ok to poo-poo vegetarianism because it didn't prevent the cancer?

People become vegetarians for many reasons, and lots of them do it for humane reasons, not to 'prevent cancer'. There are thousands of reasons as to why people get cancer. Eating red meat perhaps is linked to one certain type of cancer, but avoiding red meat certainly doesn't prevent you from getting HUNDREDS of other types of cancer.

imlach

Milo,

Just out of interest, can you provide any evidence of any coroner's report which attributed reason for death as "vegetarian diet"?

milo

these arent the people who are getting cancer and having heart attacks!


no... i am NOT saying that eating fat causes cancer. you should plenty of fats - it's beneficial. but the right kind of fats.

it's hydrogenated fats (trans fats) that are not the right kind. and these are abundant in processed meats due to the cooking process. it is this kind of thing that is giving healthy real meats a bad name.

and unless you're living in a different world to me, most *average* people do NOT make lasagna from scratch. instead they buy a pack of it from the supermarket, which is high in trans fats, and bad for your health.

milo

tell you what, you provide evidence of any coroner's report which attributes the reason for death as "eat too much chicken"

i am NOT saying being a vegetarian will kill you (although some on here are saying NOT being a vegetarian will kill you!!). i am saying its disadvantageous, particularly for active individuals.

imlach

<sigh> Yes, I agree. It's so easy to make as well....and so much cheaper and more satisfying to make than picking up a £2.99 pack of fatty lasagne in the supermarket.

The most scary thing I saw recently was the family with 2 children whose trolley was empty until the freezer aisle, and then full when it left the freezer aisle. I wondered how they cooked it all at the same time, until someone suggested they probably have 4 microwaves in the kitchen

imlach

...<humph> I asked first

milo

why do all my test results always come back fine, including liver values? and why are there not heaps of cases of liver/kidney failure in strength atheletes? in fact, i cant think of one. and there are millions of strength athletes out there.

i would suggest the average person who consumes alcohol puts their liver under MUCH more strain than a strength athlete consuming 200g of chicken 5 times a day.

imlach

I think for the "average" person (ie, not a sportsperson/bodybuilder), a well-balanced and carefully considered diet which is either vegi or non-vegi will result in similar health, and similar lifespan.

lem0ncurd

On a lighter note. Here is a photo a the common mucus build up that was removed from the colon of a meat eater. Not a pretty sight..

http://www.blessedherbs.com/tallone.jpg

milo

for a non-active person you are probably right, assuming both are taking in good quality foods and are getting similar amounts of protein, carbs and fats.

a vegi will have a harder time meeting those amount however, as they'll have to take in a larger quantity of foods to reach them.

imlach

No, not for a "non-active" person, I mean for a "non-sportsperson/bodybuilder". ie, one who is generally pretty active, but not overly so (ie, your 30-60 minutes of exercise a day type person).

My wife has no problem whipping the a$$ of meat-eaters in the pool or on her bike. She's doesn't have to eat huge quantities of vegi food to attain that feat.

I think the levels you're talking about might be the difference between a 9.9s 100m, and a 9.95s 100m

Out of interest, are there any well known vegetarian sportspeople?

imlach

Found this list of veggie athletes - most unknown, but some famous ones in there

http://vegetarian.about.com/gi/dynam...rts/index.html

Carl Lewis
Martina Navratilova
Billie Jean King
Ed Moses
Serena Williams

milo

yes but they keep dying. reason for death: vegetarian diet

seriously.. yes there are a few altho it is the rarity. most are cyclists, runners etc.. i.e. events where having any kind of mass is not usually a good thing.

there are of course *significantly* more non-vegetarian sportspeople of course.

i know of perhaps half a dozen famous strength/bodybuilding athletes who follow a vegetarian diet (and this is half a dozen total - NOT who are still around now). note that none are at the top of the sport. and also note that they are most likely taking in large amounts of protein in other forms (not pulses!!).

bill pearl is really the only truely successful veggie bodybuilder (1950's-1960's) - and he was in fact a vegan. HOWEVER, he was on steroids in the 50s... in large doses too by all accounts.

imlach

That kind of ties in with what, ahem, Google said. Found quite a few links which seemed to imply a vegetarian diet could increase stamina levels, but again, that could be down to reduced body mass due to non-huge protein intake....who knows.

TelBoy

**** off, not EVERY day you don't, surely?!!

Senior_AP

lol. a kilo!!

A massive steak is a mere 16oz.

Senior_AP

Vegetarians always look pale, skinny, ill, struggle to walk, moan alot, wind people up, have bad breath and are crap at sex.

We're designed to eat meat. Not too much. Just a good, controlled and balanced diet.

lightning101

My grandad died at 96 years old and had the poorest diet ever. Chips with everthing, meat on every plate, lot of bread, smoked half of his life.


In hospital twice in my lifetime - for a broken leg, and an ear infection.


So high cholestrol, fat, cigarettes - but no heart disease or cancer.

Tiggs

nice odds.....eat **** and one person makes it to 96.....100's just die early.

Prince Popeye

'nice odds.....eat **** and one person makes it to 96.....100's just die early.'

LOL so true. The Chav diet is essentially the way to a coronary. Seeing single mums feeding their newborns on Mcdonalds and liddle burgers whilst force feeding them 2 litres of Coke is a recipe for disaster. And as for these Gov Health ministers who want to try to change the Underclass's diet. Its impossible- A Chav won't eat fruit or Veg. Simple as.

lightning101

Yes but that was the staple diet of most people his age and many people in that category will not eat anything else.


I would be willing to bet that some of the worlds oldest people have had a similar diet - with no particular exercise regime.


Healthy balanced diets are relatively new and media driven