quicksprint

It seems that my previous quote was correct then.
The trouble is that when there is a bad or fatal car crash and a 'Subaru' is mentioned/involved everyone automatically thinks 'Impreza Turbo' and young/inexperienced drivers.

The image of the Impreza has been unfortunatly tarnished.....lets hope not for good.

steve

Ray_li

Yes I will start having fun soon but still adjusting to the car I still think there is a time and place to boot these cars and its not my daily drie to work.

Just dont think its nessecary to boot it up to 40mph evry time I pull away dfrom the traffic lights. Never know whos gonna be crossing the road.

Ray

SiDHEaD

A tragic incident Thoughts go out to both familes, and the lad involved.

I've had my scoob when i was 20 and didnt kill anyone? Must have just been lucky according to people on here.

I do 35k a year and i've seen MASSIVELY bad driving by supposedly "more experienced" drivers.

WR1 Wannabe

I don’t think it has anything to do with the car you are driving – it is more about how reckless you are. What do you mean by “MASSIVELY bad driving”? In my experience, younger people are less prone to forgetting the basics – like indicating or stopping at junctions. On the other hand, older people seem to be less prone to losing control of their car and stuffing it into a tree because they were showing off to the other passengers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoobysnacks

Well, better driving in 'high performance cars' would at least go some way to help keep sensible speed limits, stem the increase in speed cameras and lower the ridiculous insurance premiums we're all subjected to and that can only be a good thing.

Not sure that I agree with this. Anyone got any statistics on the ratio of speeding fines handed out to Porsches vs Mondeos? You don't need to have a high performance car to do 45 in a 30. Also, why would you want fewer speed cameras? If you don't speed they don't affect you - and it helps keep your taxes lower .

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoobysnacks

What to do about the vast majority of poor driving which occurs in lower performance cars? - well perhaps the standard driving test should put more emphasis on the importance of concentration, the use of 'appropriate' speed and car control instead of 3 point turns or reverse parking... Our roads really should be a much safer place.

Not instead of 3 point turns and parking, but as well as! The driving test is pretty simplistic, considering what a lethal weapon a car can be. They start teaching kids to drive at school in the US, don't they? 'Driver's Ed' is compulsory in some states before they can even get a Provisional. They get them out on skid pans and all sorts.

scoobyboy1

iTrader: (16)

Im 21 and had my scooby now for about 7 months, i do have to agree that there are a lot of young drivers out there that do drive like complete idiots, but there are a few young people who are car enthusiasts who take pride in there cars and dont have the urge to race round at every opptunity, but its never nice to hear about anyone losing there life in a car accident and my thoughts go out to the familys involved.

catalunya199again

im 23 with a scoob had it when i was 21 i did use to drive it hard sometimes but i dont bother especially on m/ways i will just cruise along at 70-80 also helps fuel consumption.

i also dont really agree with the younger drivers thing as alot of times its the late 20s or 30s in certain cars that can intice a race.

SiDHEaD

By massively bad driving i mean all sorts of things, such as the antics of people cutting across 3 lanes of traffic on the motorway from the sliplane without using mirrors (or caring), causing everyone to slam brakes on or be dead. I judge bad driving on the motorway to be more dangerous than on a roads etc, one foul move is far more likely to result in a pile-up!

There are just too many instances to recall.

And yes, young people do tend to indicate more - they are also less likely to "go straight" at islands (i.e. over the 2 lanes, cutting across the lane closest to the island), i am forever having to slam the brakes on cos some 40yo dumbass bint cuts across my lane on islands when they are going straight on and you are going straight on (dualtrack) or right.

SUBTYPER

Can we all agree any car is dangerous in the wrong inexperienced hands and maybe more effort should be introduced to enrich driving lessons. Including lessons on Motorway use, teaching people skills like cadence braking and car control in emergency situations. I also think that all Newly qualified drivers should be made to walk around a scrapyard with wrecked cars in it. Just show them how little protection the car has.

I think Zaph that your comments on young drivers are completely out of order. As surely a person that passes their driving test on their 70th birthday can be as dangerous in a car as a 17 year old. Infact surely the 17 year old would be a little safer as their reactions would be quicker. I think the point you are trying to make is a newly qualified driver no matter what age would be out of their depth in a performance car like ours.

I have been lucky enough that from the early age of 17 I have driven Cosworths and other performance Fords. I now am 29 and its still so easily to be caught out by road conditions and other road users.

Experience does help but cant rule out all accidents or surely us thirty year olds with full NCB and clean licences and like me qualified to drive Coaches would have a much lower insurance quote.

Condolences to the passengers family.

oxscooby

iTrader: (1)

Firstly and most importantly, my condolances to all involved.
Secondly i do agree that some young people cannot handle high power cars, but i think this is a stereotype to tar every young driver with the same brush. I am 22 and have had my 97 impreza turbo for 6 months now. I pay so much money each month on petrol, insurance and general running costs of the car, therefore the last thing i wanna do is throw it all away by crashing it. I know loads of young drivers that drive high performance cars. These cars are our pride and joy. I have built up 4 years no claims on other high performance cars up to now, surely this proves that not all young drivers are the same.

Brit_in_Japan

The youngest 7% of drivers on the road are involevd in 13% of accidents. 20% percent of newly qualified drivers have an accident in their first year of driving. These are not criticisms, merely statements of fact (you can check out the stats from the Department for Transport and the TRL).

All newly qualified drivers will go through a learning curve. Hopefully the learning will be painless, a few scares, maybe a low speed prang. However if newly qualified drivers are driving high perfomance cars then some of that learning process will take place at higher speeds. When the inevitable accidents do happen, those higher speeds will translate to more serious accidents and deaths/injuries to drivers, their passengers and other road users.

You can't avoid the learning process, but I think that you could lessen the numbers of deaths and serious injuries by placing power/performance restrictions on newly qualified drivers.

BuRR

was the car stolen? Parents' car? the driver's own vehicle?

Does anyone know?

SiDHEaD

I'll agree with keeping "newly qualified"'s in low-powered cars, but not "young people" (under 25?).

Andy

SUBTYPER

I kind of agree that limiting the power of a newly qualified driver is a move to limit accidents, (Is this not what happens with motorbikes) I would say tho that a prang at any speed can cause accidents, that results in major casualties and fatalities. Would the idea of increasing driver training. Covering more situations, teaching more driver skills and therefore lessing the learning curve be a more sensible offer. I also think it would be a method which could be placed into the great scheme of things quite quickly and also policed better.

I think that all learner drivers should be taught by driving instructors rather than family members. Does it not seem a bit crazy that any driver thats been passed their test for a length of time can go out and teach somebody to drive a dangerous piece of equipment.

I also think that driving schools should be rated on the amount of people thats passed and a list be made available to the public, with the results therefore making driving schools increase their levels of teaching. How many times have you seen a driving instructor make a bad driving judgement. (I am talking about the Instructor driving without a pupil)

I think that the compulsory driver education that the United States have is a really good idea for young new drivers, as it prepares them for safe road practices whether on foot or in a vehicle.

Only my opinions and ideas. I think it would be really interesting to see what would happen if the government spent the money on the above ideas instead of speed cameras, which certain safety campaigners now reckon cause more accidents and traffic hold ups than without.

Maybe the government need to start listening to the motorist and general public instead of the financial institues.

WRXPete

I guess it all depends on the person really....in my experience, though it is something of a generalisation of course, but those in their mid twenties appear to make the best drivers....they've done the "holy crap i've got a car" phase, and are getting into the "that could've been my kids on the crossing" phase....but haven't quite reached the "i've been driving for years so i must be good, and besides i deserve a fast car" phase.....okay i know this will start more moaning, but in over 2 years of service (you know which one!) i'm yet to go to an RTI where the driver responisible is under 35, never nicked anyone drunk in charge less than 30 years old. Trust me, it's the old drivers you need to look out for....us 20 somethings are a little more responsible than you think....we enjoy our cars, yes my turbo is almost always spinning....but i know when to hold back...and did do before the job showed me how to really drive!!!

NicoRossi

I think much of the reason why motorbikes have a tiered system is that, whilst yes it is theoretically possible a 17 year old could pass their test and instantly hop into a Mclaren F1 and drive so legally, it is unlikely to happen due to the sheer cost. However, it is far easier for a younger person to be able to afford a motorbike that is capable of very similar performance (if not far better) than Imprezas, supercars and so forth, and so the system has to be implemented to at least allow riders to mature slightly in age before taking the plung for a bike with a large engine. That's not to say <21 year olds don't buy 600s and then claim they're restriced to 40hp.

Thoughts with both families.

zhastaph

Yup for sure. (Except the bit digging at me ) And don't get me started on the elderly behind the wheel ........


It's not so much about reactions or the ability to control the car etc, it's about maturity and to use the potentially lethal weapon that you're holding in a responsible and fit manner. Generally speaking younger people do not have this maturity, I certainly didn't (at times I still wonder whether I do now ).


An example;

When I was 18 I had a VW Scirocco GTi, not a tremendously fast car, but the fastest I'd owned to that point. The car handled well and the brakes were much better than what I'd been used to up to that point (minis mainly). There's a sea front near where I live, it has parked cars all down one side and can be very busy in the summer. Teenagers are often seen haring it up and down there at ridiculous speeds (I woz one of them ). One day I woz stonking it along doing about 60 or 70 (showing off as per normal ), the parked cars on the other side of the road so they're not a problem, there's no paving on my side of the road so nothing to worry about there then. Then about 50metres ahead on the paving on the other side of the road I see a group of children and their football starts to drift out to the other side of the road (my side), the children follow it, so I think ****!!!, I jump on the anchors then the ball starts to go back again and the children stop so I come off the brakes. Then the ball continues the other way again, I jump as hard as I can on the brakes, *kerbang* luckily I'd only hit the ball. To this day I will not hare along that seafront and I *tsk* at the teenagers that do.



I'm not whiter than white. I'm 28 years old and still do stupid things. A couple of weeks after I moved up to my RA STi (from a UK Turbo) I had a mate in the car and was keen to show what the car was capable of. As I came up over the brow of the hill round the left hand bend doing about 70mph I caught site of an elderly lady walking her dog on my side of the road with cars coming the other. The look of horror on her face as my car lurched left towards her as I snatched one of the fornt wheels still lives with me now. It was pure luck that saved that ladies life and I know it. If I'd been a little more mature and waited for a more appropriate time to 'demonstrate' my car it would never even have got that close ........


I 100% agree with this. After I had my big prang at 17 the Police suggested I went on a "Better Driving Course" held by the Police. As sad as it may sound what I learnt from that I enjoyed and still carry with me now. Not only did they teach skills like better awareness, a very good example is only indicating if there are people to indicate to, this forces you to LOOK. Funnily enough many older drivers critisise me for this saying you should always indicate, but then if you ask them what was behind them before they turned they are unable to answer ......

Oddly enough they also taught you the correct racing line around a corner, something to do with conserving tyres and fuel apparently

Mat Mc

I haven't read the whole board so don't know if I am repeating anyone else. I am also not having a direct pop at anybody just putting my angle on things.

Whenever there is a fatal accident the Police have a duty to fully investigate it. The whole incident is technically treated as a murder scene. The fact somebody has died un-naturally is the only known fact at the beginning of the inquiry. Now the Police have to decide how they are going to gather their evidence, arresting someone does not mean they are guilty or to blame. I suspect the driver was arrested on suspicion of causing death by dangerous driving so he could be interviewed and if necessary charged with a suitably worthy offence if he is found to be to blame.

Don't condem anyone because they are a young driver or the type of car they are driving.

From the age of 17 I have had a RS Turbo, Astra SRi, Bravo 2.0.20v, S40 T4 (midlife crisis!) and now a WRX at age 26.

I on occasion made mistakes and Im sure I will make more, I have no points and have never had a crash, of my own fault. Throughout owning cars, which lets face it provoke others into proving themselves I have witnessed some amazingly dangerous driving by other peolple. I have seen people almost kill themselves to overtake me, head on into traffic, overtaking on blind bends etc. I have nearly been forecd off the road a couple of times.

Never once has this been a young driver, it is always men aged 30 to 50yrs in run of the mill mondeos, vectras, bmw's etc. I have never been cut up by another scoob.

No-one can deny experience comes with age, I am not for one second suggesting that young drivers should be able to drive very high performance cars but then again neither should my nan - lol!

Brit_in_Japan

Take a look at the TRL website. There is a paper on what might be done to reduce the accident rate of newly qualified drivers. They have looked at countries round the world to see what works and what doesn't. They have looked into lengthening of the learning process and providing more training. In Sweden such a system appears to show positive results. A similar system in Norway has not worked. They don't understand why it would work in one country and not another. Until they do they won't introduce such a system here.

Driving instructors teach you how to pass a driving test. They do not give you all the skills needed to be a safe driver. Whether family members are better depends on the family member. Personally speaking my father gave me and my sister very good instruction aimed to keep us safe and instill some roadcraft into us. He started us driving on private land at age 16 so we had car control before going on a public road. He taught us advanced driving techniques and he gave us the "Principles of Performance Driving" book by Jackie Stewart. The instructor just taught the ABC of passing the test, though I must thank him for pointing out that heel-and-toeing on a test would likely no go down well

Lagamorph

iTrader: (12)

i am 22 also and would like to think that i am mature enough to drive a wrx. i considered myself more dangerous in a 1.3 suzuki super carry at 17 - 19
than i do now at 22 in a 200+bhp car. my point being people mature and gain more road experience at different rates hence the 30 something pikey's in 4x4 sierra's driving like tw*ts. dont judge me and others like me just on our age just think back to all the other fatal road accidents youve read about and forgotten involving so called mature drivers.

P.S I didnt recall anything in the article suggesting he was driving dangerously


Andy

Lagamorph

iTrader: (12)

ok he was arrested fair enough

SJJ84

I don't see what age has to do with it. It is not any indication of responsibility or experience. It's the same with motorbikes, people say if they had them they'd kill themselves. Why? If your stupid enough not to show them respect then yes you will crash. Being 19 I'm obviously going to see it differently to you lot. From what you've been saying I should have crashed seriously by now. I've got a Yamaha R6 motorbike and have driven all sorts of cars including M3 convertibles and Porsche Boxsters. Yes they are fast powerful cars, but a little common sense and respect and there is no reason for there to be a problem. As I said age has nothing to do with experience either, I've had a license about 2.5 years now and have done over 100,000 miles in various vehicles, my mum on the other hand hasn't even done half that in her 30+ years on the road. So who is more experienced?

carlegacy

i have always had cars 200bhp plus from the age of seventeen and never had a accident due to my driving.but then i was taught to drive safely by a traffic officer(friend of the family).

i don't think age limits are the answer its education for those who have done the advanced driving they will probably agree with me.there should be no advanced driving course this is how people should be taught to drive from the off.
maybe then accident rates will be cut.
even if we said from now on when people pass their test they can only have a 1000cc its still capable of doing 40mph+ through a built up area and killing someone.
theres a time and a place for spped,you have a limit your car has a limit.respect these three things and you will be safe.

WR1 Wannabe

It's comments like this:

that make comments like this:

appear somewhat naive.

Generally, what experience gives you is anticipation. Like zhastaph with his seafront story. When he was 18 he thought it was cool to race along there. Now he realises how stupid it was because he could have killed someone. What maturity gives you is common sense - a 70 year old who has just passed his test is not going to hoon up and down a seafront full of kids to impress his pensioner mates!

If all young drivers are perfectly sensible and cherish their cars, and nobody under the age of 35 ever has an accident, why are their insurance premiums so much higher?

There have been a lot of generalised comments posted here guys, please don't take them personally. Just because you are a sensible driver, it doesn't mean that the same is true for everyone else your age (whatever that may be). And comments like, "It never happened to me when I was 18 so it can't be true", hardly constitute irrevocable proof.

When I was about 18 I used to like doing handbrake turns - I thought it was cool and made me a good driver. Then one day I was a passenger in a car when someone else did one at 40 mph - he lost it and the car went up a bank and missed a tree by about 2 inches. Not long after that I was with another mate who did the same thing at about 60 mph - he yanked the brake and spun the wheel. The handbrake came off in his hand (!) and the car nearly flipped, how we didn't up hitting anything is beyond me. I haven't done a handbrake turn in years now (well, apart from the odd one in a big gravel car park ).

The point is, I did things at 18 that I certainly wouldn't do now - and the same is true for a lot of other people I know. I don't know anyone who has suddenly started doing stupid things at the age of 35 who was a perfectly sensible driver before that. So there you go.

There was a guy a couple years back (not a youngster) who believed he was the best driver in the world (he said so in court). You probably heard about it - the story went something like this: He was furious at a young couple in the car in front because they were going slower than him in the overtaking lane. How dare they show such a lack of awareness and poor driving? To teach them a lesson and, presumably, to pass on the benefit of his superior skills, he drove up to their rear bumper shouting and gesticulating. When they didn't move over immediately, he tapped into the back of them to really show how skillfull he was. Unfortunately, the driver of the car in front lost control, crossed the central reservation and crashed head on into an on-coming vehicle, which killed them both. This guy is in prison now, probably still baffled why everyone else blames him when he is such a good driver.

That story really made me stop and think. No matter how good a driver you think you are, are you sure a copper in the seat next to you would agree?

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

I saw a complete idiot last thursday coming back from yorkshire, going over the woodhead pass (from the roundabout near the chinese) where there was a truck, a white van, a car and then me in the scoob, wet conditions, slight drizzle.
Mr "yoof" in white van, overtakes truck in citroen/renault small white thing, not on a straight mind but on a sweeping left hand bend takes him around 15 secs to get past truck, me waiting for big accident as you couldnt see anything coming around the corner luckily nothing did come until 10 or so seconds after he had passed the truck.
Road then goes to duel carriageway in upward direction, car in front passes truck, i pass car and truck, i catch white van man up and overtake him (uphill still) and carry on over top of moors. The road is quite slippy as its still raining slightly, traffic isnt too bad at this stage though. I then encounter a car and a truck, mr white van man come hurling up behind at a great rate of knots, really good in the wet if you dont have abs , i get some room on a straight bit of road, overtake truck and car, no room for mr white van man to go.... yet!
The road is becoming increasingly busier, lots of traffic in the opposite direction, no traffic in my direction so im travelling at 60mph along these roads, near the end (and considering im passing lots of cars in the other direction without many gaps, mr white van man catches me up!
The scary thing is, is that i wouldnt have overtaken anywhere else on that road, and thats with a 300bhp car and due to the ammount of traffic in the opposite direction it would have been suicidal to do so!
(and before any of you say i was driving slow ) ive driven this road quite a few times, slow and quick, i was making nice progress on it but not driving like a complete muppet.
The guy in the van must have taken so many risks and god knows how hes still alive with the manouvers he made! and the fact that when i entered the 30mph zone and slowed down, he nearly went into the back of me (i dont think signs counted for him) and i slowed with the rest of the traffic!
One good point though, he did go flying passed a speed camera at over 40 in a 30 zone so hes probably copped a quick 3 points out of it (then he did another stupid manouver and forced himself into the traffic queue further up, lots of cars breaked for that one )
This isnt pointing at any real age group but if the car/van etc isnt yours, most people dont respect it as someone else pays the cost, but i doubt this guy will live much longer with the way he drives though.

Tony

akshay67

Where does it say the driver of the Subaru (unknown model) was 18?

wall

I think it has far more to do with maturity than hp. You can just as easily kill yourself in a 1.0 Punto, perhaps even more so.
When I was 18 I had a Civic Si (100hp at best) and used to fly around every corner and max it out on every straight. I'm surprised I'm still around, as it's limits were quite low and an 80km/h crash in that would have been probably fatal, and I was doing at least 80 everywhere.
I'd make track + advanced driving course compulsory for everyone that gets a drivers license, say within 6 months after passing the test (otherwise license is revoked). Show them what happens at the limit, understeer, oversteer, emergency high speed braking, how easy it is to lose it .... most people will REALLY drive sensibly on the road once they experience that (I know I did).

WR1 Wannabe

Er, it's the second word in the news report!

mista weava

just to add my two penneth.

between the ages of 17 and 20 i took alot of risks and drove beyond my abilities.

as a result i have been there, seen it, done it, got the t-shirt AND shagged the tour rep!

the point being is this. teenage boys are generally without the fear and respect of certain actions they take that an older person would. this is a fact.

there are plenty of sensilble young'uns with mighty quick cars who don't drive beyond there and the cars means, but alot do!

if i had had a 200 plus bhp motor at 18 i would have had a very big accident or been very lucky - i just know this from my personal experience.

with regard to an earlier post that mentioned how it was virtually impossible to unstick a scoob blah blah blah. thats all very well untill you have to dab the brakes a bit sharpish on a bend and lose the back end. or indeed if you are in an early scoob like mine without abs, you hank the brakes, lock up and go straight on.

its when it starts to go pear shaped that the driver ability is questioned and no matter how good the handling of the vehicle, if the drivers abilities do not measure up, or if there is no where to go, you will end up in a heap!

< "I think it has far more to do with maturity than hp. You can just as easily kill yourself in a 1.0 Punto, perhaps even more so." >

i agree - but the chances are thatif you have a more powerful car and you use it in the manner you describe in your post and indeed akin to the above mumblings i have made about my erstwhile driving, it makes the whole mix that much more potent!

SUBTYPER

But Tony did The white Van man give respect to your Spec C LOL or was he not an enthusiast either LOL.

ScoobywagonGl

What a complete and utter load of tosh! it dont matter what age you are its how you drive it!
I'm 22 and have had an impreza for 1 month fair enough not powerful as its only a gl but its got more power than any of my old cars!
I've had more near misses (not my fault) and 1 accident (not my fault) in the last 3½ years but because i am aware i learn to control it! Just because it happened in a scooby it all rips loose ... ffs it could have happened in a nova! and again a young girl could have lost her life! Im sure if it hadnt of been a scoob then there wouldnt have been all these questions!
again as has been said somewhere on page 2 it aint the age thats the problem its the people driving it! I've seen 30+ chavs driving like ********* in impreza's doing stupid things that could have lead to accidents/deaths but noone says anything about them!
I'm a safe driver and 9 times out of 10 have a small child in the car with me! dont make me any less a good/bad driver!