TelBoy

And therefore isn't generally suitable as a domestic pet - that's the essence of what "the other side" are saying....

Nick

You can certainly do that if you're callous, uncaring & inhumane.

ajm

Just want to take time out to thank everyone for keeping it civil. I havn't noticed any obscenities or name calling and for a Scoobynet cat thread that is almost unheard of!

Well done everyone!

TelBoy

No, Mice, not at all. But if they're kept in areas where they can't help adversely affect other people's environment, are they suitable as pets at all?? Isn't it all a bit selfish to keep them under those circumstances?

OllyK

As I said before, dogs do the same thing. When you put a puppy on a lead for the first time they go nuts. You have to do it gradually and reward them / distract them. Put the lead on for a couple of minutes while you play with a ball with the animal, then take it off and reward it. Build the time up until they will accept the lead.

It is just a case of most people don't put the time and effort in to training a cat, to walk on a lead or otherwise. With a dog however, you have to train it to walk on a lead otherwise you can't really take it out, as a result, dog owners put the effort in to train their animal. Likewise dog owners (responsible ones) spend a lot of time socialising their dog with other dogs and people so that it is happy around people and will accept them without getting nervous or biting and so on. And yes you do have to train dogs not to bite.

At the end of the day, you can train any mamal to do pretty much anything that it is physically possible for that mamal to do (not much point trying to train a dolphin to bring you your slippers or fetch the paper ). You can also train birds and some other non mamalian animals as well.

Redkop

MooseRacer

Likewise, except Ali-B's rather tasteless (joke?) about snares.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Here here Tel - exactly what I was implying

Mice_Elf

It's true, I did have them from very young. We knew the mother of the kittens, so were able to start handling them from just a few hours old. However, they were born in June and moved in with my then boyfriend when they were 8 weeks old. We didn't move in together until December of that year, which is when I started training them, so they would have been 6 months old.

They reacted when I first put collars on them, as boyfriend hadn't bothered with that. Moon went ballistic and kept running up to the washing machine, standing on his hind legs and looking at himself in the glass as though to say "WHAT THE HELL IS THIS???" But after much squirming and "get-this-off-me" actions, they calmed down and accepted it.

The lead was similar. We used to take them out one at a time, as 4 cats on leads is not an easy situation to handle! The only time it was an issue was when they would see something and try to dart off, but be stopped by the lead. We'd get a dirty look but they soon learnt that dirty looks were about as effective as a candle in sunlight. They just got used to it and will even walk to "heel".

K9VYN

a point that may not have been mentioned yet is the fact that cats (as well as other animals) suffer at our hands for experiements and tests for every day products which we use as cosmentics or cures.

and what do we give them back for these cruel services they provide for our benefit? nothing??? yet we want to deprive them of the very thing that's in their nature - freedom to take a dump an in any moaning croanie's garden!

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Unless you completly missed it there was a point in the "joke"

That being: How do you find the owner of a cat?

The only way is to catch it and read its address tag. Some cats are freindly (stupid?) enough to allow you to approach them, but most will just bolt over the nearest fence. Hence the need for a snare

Mind, how many cat's have a proper address tag?

K9VYN

heres a question to all..

if domestic cats weren't domesticated... what do we think they'd be doing?

Oatcake

My cats dont suffer because unlike many other cats around where I live, they dont get run over, they dont get tortured by the local yobs.

My cats are not obese, they dont have behaviour problems, I think I know that my cats aren't suffering, how do I know this??????? because the little buggars wont stop purring!

Jye,

Yes m8 saying that people that let their cats out are lazy barstewards is a bit strong, I agree, but look at two of YOUR arguments,

1) cleaning litter trays is a chore.

Its no more of a chore than cleaning MY toilet, no more of a chore than changing a babies nappy. What should I do if my kids keep filling their nappies? I know shove em outside and let them crap in the neighbours garden!

2) Household objects and nooks and crannies that the cat may get into.

This is no different than having kids, just the same as a pet owner, go around the house and identify the hazards and do something about it.


your own arguments only back up MY opinion, laziness.

Nick

Just because you or your family can't train a cat doesn't mean that a cat can't be trained. Read the book "clicker-training for cats". Using a clicker & high value food treats, a cat can be trained.

The training methods for a dog or cat are subtly different. A dog basically wants to please the alpha dog (you). This is because a dog is a pack animal. A cat is a sole hunter (generally) & not a pack animal.

Here's an example of training. I have some expensive Linn Isobarik speakers with nice comfy foam inserts on the top. Very comfortable for a cat to sleep on. The cat jumps up on the speakers, I make a loud REMOTE noise. (Rattle stones in a coke can) This is uncomfortable for the cat because she doesn't like the noise, she jumps down & I praise her IMMEDIATELY. Therefore sit on speaker= nasty noise. Jump on ground= praise & tickle tummy. Speaker=bad, ground=good.

Cats are never "naughty" in their own mind, they don't recognise being told off after the event. Also if you shout at the cat, it is YOU being nasty & unstable & the cat will be frightened of YOU & will not associate being shouted at with whatever they were doing at the time.

InvisibleMan

havent read any of the above but its bollox they mess everywhere. They will do it in flowerbeds & have the courtesy to bury it. Unlike dogs who just **** anywhere & everywhere leaving it where people step in it.

TelBoy

Not surviving for long in the wild, until a sustainable population existed. Your point being?

MooseRacer

No mate, like I said just thought it was a tasteless joke (about a serious point re identification)

TelBoy

Generally true, Stef. But that doesn't mean that flowerbeds aren't "explored", or that during the summer the smell doesn't offend. But i agree with you, dog mess in public places is another social ill we all have to suffer...

InvisibleMan

tho having said that, our cat does **** everywhere

well at least she doesnt **** everywhere

Jye

They seem do do OK from where I'm sitting

So based on this you think that this will apply to every cat on the planet?

Only if you can catch them doing it. Same with the water pistol method, even more effective. I reckon your cats must go out when you are out. If a cat is left inside all day and is ripping up your sofa just see how far the clicker training gets you

juan

Sorry oatcake but these were not my arguments. I've never seen them before and I wouldn't use them myself as I don't agree with them.

I'll leave it up to you whether you want to apologise for the laziness aspersion you cast upon me if it was based on these.

OllyK

And your missing the point about dogs, they don't crave attention 100% of the time. With no human intervention they will entertain themseleves, chewing the furniture, or if left to roam, killing cats, fighting with other dogs, getting run over and crapping in people's gardens.

Dogs "learn" that the humans they are with are more "fun" than chewing and doing other such things as the human plays with them, takes them for walks, feeds them etc. If dogs craved human attention, every dog would love everybody and there would be no risk of people getting bitten. Dogs have to learn they are part of you "pack" and where they fit in to it and have to be taught sociable behaviour.

Natural food??? Are you telling me you don't feed you cat??? If you give your cat adequate food, it should not need to seek it elsewhere. As most cats are well fed they don't eat their kills, they just catch, play with and kill animals for the sake of it. Why shoudl your cat be allowed to do that?? OK wild animals have to fend for themseleves, but why should your cat be allowed to unsettle the balance?

Only because cat owners can't be bothered to put the time and effort in to socialising a cat unlike dog owners. If people put the effort in that people like Mice and Oatcake did then there wouldn't be an issue here.

And if I had let my dog out on the streets from when he was a pup he would have been quite happy out and about as well, just the law doesn't allow me to do that. So what's your point?

IMO that makes you worse than irresponsible. Rather than just being plain igonorant of the issues, you know about them and actively encourage you animals anti-social behavour.

TelBoy

LOL, yes, on your side of the fence i'm sure that's perfectly true!!

Jye

They roam far and wild, are excellent hunters and can survive most weather and environmental conditions.

If left to thier own devices feral colonies will become absolutely huge. I know because I help catch feral cats to have them neutered.

juan

I'm sure a cat can be trained if you work at it but its not something I would want to do because I prefer to let my cat keep its natural behaviour.

Oatcake

If my cats were not domesticated, they would be going around killing the local wild life, crapping in other peoples gardens, walking all over peoples cars and generally being a pest to other people.

Yes if as kittens I had let them outside they would still like to go outside now, but I chose not to, the same as I chose not to let my dog as a puppy, my fish and my birds, they know no different.

Cats learn most of their social skills upto 12 weeks old, its up to this age that any training needs to be done.

I agree that any cat owner that lets their cat out SHOULD NOT suddenly keep it in the house at all times, that would be cruel. But just remember that when you get that next cute little kitten there is an alternative.