Jza

...... Or more importantly - why cant Prodrive make a spec C beater

Jza

hawkeye

exactamondo......... until they do my money's staying deep within my pocket.... but when they do stand back i may just crush a few people in the rush

greasemonkey

Like I said Jza, the P1 and WR1 were developed to satisfy exactly the same dynamic criteria.

WTF does that mean? Both cars were focused on providing the best balance of qualities for use by 500 customers on UK roads. They are just as "focused" as the Mitsu is (and was). The difference is that they are focused on doing slightly different things.

Presumably because they don't see any value in importing the car under SVA, training up their dealers to service them, and investing in the spare parts inventory necessary to cater for a maximum of 50 cars per year.

...Because IM haven't commissioned them to make one, primarily, and I'd imagine the reason IM haven't done that is because the development cost necessary to do it would result in an extremely high price for what would be a very limited (by market) edition.

It would also be very difficult to do in practice due to the apparent problems getting European Type Approval for the twinscroll engine.

RoadrunnerV2

IMO the P1 and WR1 are subarus' £30k package of fine balancing between extreme performance and everyday usability / reliability. Evo's packages are extreme performance with trackday driveability .... therefore why winge at Prodrive/IM/ whoever when both cars are aimed at different buyers.

greasemonkey

Steady on Roadrunner. Logic and commonsense don't seem to fit in too well with some people round here.

ozzy

What's the "UK roads" thing all about anyway ???

Motorway, A-road, B-road, forest track.

Don't think the WR1 is any better performing on my local roads than it would be in say Spain or France or Germany or even the Czech Republic.

greasemonkey

...As opposed to Japanese roads and driver preference, which is what the JDM STi's (and Mitsubishi Evos for that matter) come set up for.

ozzy

So what's so special about Japanese roads? other than a 112mph limit

I've never heard any other performance manufacturer talking about Uk roads or Japanese roads. Don't think a 911 is designed for German roads.

JohnMcC

On the contrary, cars are often set up for UK roads and tastes IIRC.

ozzy

Yeah, but what exactly does setup for UK roads actually mean. I'm not being argumentative or sacrastic; just trying to understand what is meant by the phrase.

Things like gearing I can understand or big powerful lumps for long, straight American roads.

Stefan

greasemonkey

Improved ability to handle over poor quality road surfaces, and generally improved ride comfort would be the main differences between a "Japanese" car and a "British" one I'd imagine Stef.

If you wanted and exact answer you'd have to ask the people actually working in the chassis tuning departments of different motor manufacturers. Even then, I'd imagine that someone at, say, Jaguar, would have a slightly different take than the guy doing the same job at BMW or Merc. For that matter, I'd imagine the guy at Merc would have a considerably altered view now than he would have done ten years ago!

hawkeye

so its settled then the P1 &/or Wr1 are/were Subaru Uk's best efforts yet...................lets just hope they let prodrive develop something better

Edcase

Jesus H Christ!!! Why start a thread and then not bother to read any of it?? I mean, you can't have read it, otherwise you wouldn't have been stupid enough to make the above comment. Twice. In two posts. Or are you just a bit slow. How many times do you need explaining why IM or Prodrive cannot bring the Spec C (or many of its special bits) here???

If you want a spec c, it exists! its for sale! Call Iain Litchfield!!!

greasemonkey

I did wonder!

It doesn't sound like he wants to buy one Ed, he just thinks Prodrive should make one, for whatever reason. Seems as though he'll keep on thinking that no matter how much time anyone takes to explain why it's not likely to happen.

Brit_in_Japan

The road surfaces here are no better than UK roads, if anything the average standard is lower. So if there is a difference in steering/suspension set-up then it must come down to what the car companies perceive as the ride and handling expectations of their customers.

The speed limits in Japan are less than the UK, especially for A and B type roads where you can easily find yourself doing no more than 50-60 kph as that's the limit and overtaking is most often not permitted. So I would say that for the average motorist here ride quality would be more important than good handling.

Those who like spirited driving on the skyline roads usually drive modified vehicles. Did I mention that Japanese insurers don't care about mods?

whiteyisback

if the japanese domestic market get more versions of the impreza then why dont we ? a la - Spec c ?...i've read this whole thread and still dont understand why they couldnt produce a UK spec C (taking into account all the red tape u've thrown up) ?
Or dare I say it Prodrive make a hot version ....oh no we already have that car - the WR1 !.....lol....**** me that car is 90 % the same as what we can already get - which looking at the competition isnt good enough (in mine and several others opinions).

i dont care what anyone says...Subaru's (or Prodrives) Impreza and Mitsu's Evo ARE in the same bracket of car...they should and are regularly tested back to back with good reason. Thats why these 2 cars are so often compared...doh! it's not that anyone on here has an EVO fixation (unlike some with serious Subaru obsessions)....I drive an Impreza too dont forget and love the car, I just wish it shared some (not all) of the traits of the EVO.
There is NO reason why we the buyer cannot have our cake and eat it..as in a car that handles as well as, say an Evo straight out of the box and yet has 10k service intervals, 3 yr warranty. Which I guess is what the majority of us (excepting Edcase and GM) seem to agree on. Any of you guys reading this agree or disagree ? ( i think i know 2 that might not share my view's).

After all if £500 spent at Powerstation on geom settings and a few very basic suspension components being replaced can make massive improvements then why could'nt the car have been made that way in the 1st place ??...and lets not even mention Subaru's choice in tyres...lol......In all Subaru (or Prodrive) wouldnt have to change much to satisfy the most common gripes thrown at them by owners who drive their cars in anger on track or road.

Supercue

iTrader: (1)

I agree
I test drove an FQ M3 and 2 Subarus. That as someone who knew jack about them but enough to know that the Evo & Scoob are in the same class.

Couldn't agree more but IM may have other ideas on how to increase profits. Especially as there's far more profit in servicing and after sales for your car than selling it to you thats for sure.
A lot of minor adjustments could be made to the cars without any huge outlay. As for tyres I would have thought Pirelli, as a SWRT sponsor, would love to see their brand of tyres on the car, never mind any of the other tyre manufacturers that must be queing up.

Over to GM to disect

hawkeye

the other point aswell is the performance upgrades on subaru's look at whats available from prodrive, yes remap, exhaust etc etc BUT its £2000 look in the mitsubishi catalogue and they dont even mind a decat centre section, plenty of goodies plenty of scope..... subaru & prodrive SHOULD produce something really special.... not the watered down WR1 IMHO

greasemonkey

Yes and no. They are both four wheel drive, two litre turbocharged C-sector-ish saloons, yes. However, UK Subarus (even in the case of the "limited" edition WR1) are designed to appeal to at least 500 customers. The Lancers are sold in batches of nly 50. It'd be a far better comparison to compare a Type 25 with a UK Lancer as the numbers and target audiences are similar.

Because the Japanese car market is fundamentally different to ours. For starters government legislation means the average age of cars is far newer over there.

Try and get this through your head this time as it's been said before. The Spec C is an homologation special. It is manufactured in limited numbers in Japan solely to allow Subaru to campaign a more effective Group N rallycar. The reason the Spec C is only available in Japan is the same reason the old classic shape STi's were only available there - FHI makes the minimum number necessary to satisfy the FIA's homologation requirements, and has no desire to sell the cars on a mass-market basis elsewhere in the world.

Yawn. Not going through all the "red tape" again. If it didn't sink in first time, go read the thread again and see if you have any better luck.

Of course it is, what's your point? The P1 was 90% the same as a standard UK turbo. The Lancer Evos are largely the same as the Cedias. The Focus RS is largely the same as the cooking ones. The WR1, for what it's worth, probably has more than 90% parts commonality with the Spec C, so again, what's your point?

No they're not. As mentioned above, sales volumes are different by orders of magnitude. Whether you like to admit it or not, UK Subarus and Evos are aimed at grossly different markets, and at different target customers.

Claiming that the cars are in the same "bracket" just because they're the same size and general transmission layout just doesn't fly. It's a bit like claiming an Ariel Atom and a Toyota MR2 are in the same "bracket".

That's rich coming from someone who seems fixated on the fact that Subaru should produce a car that "competes" with the Evos.

Fraid there are loads of reasons.

Subaru's people would say that their cars handle better than the Evo straight out of the box, and they would have a point.

Hardly. If you read back the thread you'll see that Ed and I aren't the only two voices disagreeing with your proposition.

You can say that about any mass market car. They are all (to a greater or lesser extent) built down to a price. If you want bespoke, buy a kit car, something like an Atom, or a Rolls Royce.

Your point being?

Subaru UK don't give a f**k about what people who drive their cars on the track think, as their warranty procludes such use in the first place. As for the people who drive the cars on the road, again, this thread is notable for the fact that the people slagging the WR1 off don't actually appear to own one.

hawkeye

i dont own a WR1 but i have driven one..... oooops better no go down THAT road eh greasemonkey

urban

iTrader: (1)

Brilliant

**** me, even better

Sarcasm at its very best

Shaun

hawkeye

Maybe the dictionary should read


sarcasm

noun [U]
remarks that mean the opposite of what they say, made to criticize someone or something in a way that is amusing to others but annoying to the person criticized
biting/heavy sarcasm

example :- to do a greasemonkey

MikeWood

Hawkeye

If you haven't already, then I think you really need to get a drive in a WR1 so you can make your own decision about the car. I may be wrong, but I don't remember seeing a post on here expressing the same findings as TG from anyone that has actually driven the car themselves. It's worth remembering that the WR1 will have the owner in the passenger seat and less mileage than your own car so you won't necessarily be comparing like with like but I'm sure your apparently blinkered opinion will change once you've experienced the car first hand.

There are far too many points raised in this thread to answer them all now but I'll have a go at answering a few of them in a fairly general way:

We too would like to produce the ultimate Impreza, but what actually is the ultimate spec? Is that just the fastest car on a race circuit or is it about a car that is excellent in as broad a spectrum of road conditions as possible? What you would do to create the fastest car round several long, high g corners would be seriously compromised for driving briskly down your average British A or B road (think we all know this already) The brief for the WR1 was to create an exceptional ROAD car that maximised the potential of the currently available build specification, without costing a fortune. It would have been really easy to spend loads more money on the car but would it have sold in the numbers needed? Possibly not. I can see the reaction we would have got already; WR1, really great car round a circuit but poor value at £38k (not suggesting it would take another £8k to make it better round a race circuit but you get what I mean).
I think the 'should have based on a Spec C' thing is a red herring as it is simply not possible for us to base a car on this 'low' spec car that was really only created to build competition cars from. Whatever we did, we couldn't make the car as light but we do have the most important thing, the DCCD-A.
On a slightly different point, has anyone actually driven a std JDM STi or Spec C as they are very different to how the press has driven the cars?

All the things that have been discussed in this thread and an awful lot more have been on our 'wish list' for a very long time but they all take time to get done as well as costing large sums of money to do in a thorough manner.

So it boils down to how much money have you got and how long are you prepared to wait

Mike

Edited to correct some grammar and because hawkeye posted whilst I was typing that he has actually driven a car! (he may have done so before but I lost to will to live whilst I was looking )

So what did you think hawkeye?

ozzy

Mike,

The wait will be worthwhile if it stops the majority of people in my work asking why I don't get myself an Evo

Whether we like it or not, that's what the majority of people I've spoken to compare the Impreza to. And it doesn't help the image when the WR1 gets beaten around a track by one.

OK, we all know we can modify the cars to bring them onto a level playing field, but Joe Public doesn't really know (or care) about that.

Until an off-the-shelf Impreza can trounce the off-the-shelf Evo's, the Impreza maybe seen as either an inferior car or one for the older owner

Stefan

Ice Man - WR1

Thanks for the comments Mike, I'm still waiting for a WR1 owner or someone who has driven one to slag it off. I may be waiting a long time........

hawkeye

Mike,

thanks for the reply and im sorry about your will to live i have that effect on people at times (my wife mainly)

dont get me wrong i liked the car when i drove it, unfortunately it was the same day as an mr340 and my own back to back........ for me it just didnt do it sorry but thats my own opinion....... the car i have is very different to the norm more so than the WR1 the mr340 was too dare i say it hardcore

hence my comments, therefore when IM give you the go ahead to produce something really special ill be first in the queue with cheque book ready (within resaon )

i agree with the restraints &/or brief you've had the WR1 is a good car, my views did change considerably after driving it......


it just could have been so much more... ahh well maybe a mahooooosive cheque book and a visit to prodrive could get me the car i really want

paul

Simon Lines

If I may, perhaps we could expand this slightly?

How many people (on here) have driven a WR1 and Evo? of those that have, how many have driven them back to back?

I don't mean a 10 mile dealer drive round the block either

Cheers

Simon

greasemonkey

If it matters so much to you what they think Stef, why don't you just buy an Evo?

Again, who cares? This is more playground talk than anything else, how old did you say you were again? Do you buy a car because of what you want out of it, or do you buy a car because of what your mates think you should drive? This is a frankly ridiculous argument - and the same one made by the likes of Jza and Scoobynutter at the outset of the thread.

Again, who cares? It doesn't exactly help Mitsu's image to see their WR car being thoroughly spanked by Subaru's (not to mention Peugeot, Ford etc.)over the course of a sixteen round world rally championship, so the "image" thing is a red herring. In the context of the above, a five minute piece on a British TV programme is eminently forgettable.

Again who gives a toss what Joe Public thinks? If it bothers you that much, buy an Evo, simple.

WTF does that mean? Please define "trounce"...

hawkeye

Oh dear simons lost the will to live aswell look up simon

I have i drove and Mr340 a wr1 and my MY02sti back to back on the sameday covered several hundred miles between them.

Nick Wadeson

Can I join in as well?

Nick.