IWatkins

That has got to be one of the most arrogant statements I've ever seen posted on ScoobyNet.

WR1 Wannabe

I read a quote that something along the lines of "the best Impreza since the P1, but not better than the P1". Can't remember where I read that now, but I have noticed some people referring to that, and inferring that the P1 is a better car. The mag' never went as far as saying that though. Just 'cos something isn't better than something else, it don't make it worse. Subtle point maybe, but it's there all the same. And I wouldn't know 'cos I've never driven a P1.

As far as being below the Evo, again, it depends on your yardstick. The people testing these cars are offering opinions that are derived from how well their expectations were met. If their sole aim is to get the fastest track time, then they will offer one view. If their scope is wider, you will get another. Too much use of the word "better" here.

Would you say the Evo is "better looking", has a "better interior", is a "better daily drive", etc.? Some would, some wouldn't and I know where I stand. I was a confirmed Evo fan until they brought out the 7, then I just couldn't get past the look of the thing - the 6 was so much 'better' IMHO. Faced with an Evo 7 or a Bugeye, I binned my plans for buying a 2L turbo 4WD and started looking at Porsches. "Better image", "better residuals". Then Subaru brought out the MY04 and I was back to where I started - but this time I preferred the Scoob to the Mitsu.

Took an FQ300 for a test drive and was unimpressed - yes it was quick, but it lacked a certain je ne sais quoi. Soul maybe? And it understeered badly on roundabouts! I took an STi out and, although it wasn't as quick, it was more fun - I can't really say why, but I returned the car with a smile on my face. And, if anything, it was more prone to oversteer on normal road corners (mebbe that's just the way I drove it though - sensible speed in to pick the line, floor it out). And it looked a helluva lot 'better'.

Well, I don't know if it's down to the Mitsi's firmer suspension, but I also have wondered by Subaru haven't emulated Mitsubishi's Super AYC, etc. Perhaps the WR1's adjustable centre diff is a step in the right direction? I expect there is only so much you can do without having to firm up the ride, which is what we don't want them to do. If we did, we would buy an Evo instead and save ourselves the hassle.

I don't know if it has really been that bad - perhaps it has. But I'm not really all that interested in the opinion of someone who is only 'luke warm' towards the WR1's performance. They're either a professional racing driver or a stats nerd - neither of which has any bearing on how I will use the car, or on the fact that it will blow 99.9% of the other cars on the road, off it.

As I said before, the majority of the negativity I have seen has been here in this forum, which is a shame really, although I have yet to read a negative comment from someone who actually owns a WR1.

Edcase

Arrogant, maybe. Accurate? Almost certainly.

You shouldn't quote on internet forums, you never know who people are or what they do

I, for example, 'know a bit' about videogames

Redkop

An easy thing to do though Edcase, if people choose to keep their real identity secret

greasemonkey

Lol. You can read it however you like Ian, but it's fair comment.

It may surprise you to hear that most journalists, even motoring ones, are paid more than anything else for their ability to generate attention-grabbing (read magazine/paper selling, TV audience building) copy than any specific ability behind the wheel. Do you think Clarkson got where he is because he's a former F1 champion or something? He's doing what he does because he's a darn good journalist, and an interesting guy to listen to, no more or less.

The only obvious exceptions are folk like Tiff Needell, and TBH even he probably owes his career more to his gift of the gab (both on screen and with TV executives) than any outright speed behind the wheel.

So yes, chances are I am a better driver than the majority of motoring journos, and why should I take some random scribe's word for anything when I can drive the thing myself and form my own opinions? If that counts as arrogance, and the alternative is doing what far too many others on this thread have done, and taking the result of a TV stunt or magazine article as gospel, well, call me arrogant, I've been called far worse.

whiteyisback

twigster and marc16v both spot on........at last someone else making some sense without trying to convince us all it doesnt matter.

no body can tell me that the impreza and evo dont fall into the "same bracket" of car.....lol....there really arent that many variants of the rally bred 4 door 4wd jap type motor. Frankly if anyone impreza owner tells me they bought their car for it's boot space or interior or fuel economy then they lieing...big time...lol...we all bought our cars for pretty much the same reason...performance...and..eh performance...sure further down the list of priorities you can add in all your other little plus points but deep down we all bought these cars because of their ability to go round corners and put a smile on your face.

Knowing that a standard Evo can out perform a standard impreza is one thing (oh yes it can), but when the mighty Prodrive release a "hotter" version of the impreza and this then is shown to be 2nd best - well thats just fecking annoying (and not just by Clarkson but by every single person who's driven both cars in anger).

Greasemonkey...i dont mean to offend but wot planet are you on mate ?...no really... none of what i'm saying (or a few good other people on here for that matter) is grey or muddied it's very simple and for all the motoring politics in the world with IM this and Prodrive that a car has been made that falls short of the competition. Nothing more and nothing less.

Judging by your reaction to this thread it looks like we both agree on one thing though - it's not nice is it !

one last thing....i'm not an Ariel Atom diehard fan or a subaru one or evo one for that matter.....lol..i've owned all three over the last 4 years...2 of which i still do own...(my03 WRX and 2yr old atom). I've driven all 3 on numerous track days, across europe blats (yes the atom too!) and am privalidged not to have to read car mags/watch Top Gear to make my decisions. I also have the ability to tell the truth and not convice myself (or try to convince others) that there are valid reasons for Prodrive/IM/Subaru to produce yet another impreza that doesnt perform as well as the competition.
(now roll on the 101 quotes..lol).

scoobynutta555

Vexed fan boys?

I've had 3 Imprezas over 6 years now, including a wrx sti5typer and a P1. I certainly don't Lord it down the pub because I have an Impreza. If I was indeed into 'Lording' it I certainly wouldn't purchase anything in the current Subaru range.

Any rections I've made to the WR1 haven't been exclusive to Top Gear either.

Seems to me there is a genuine gripe from Impreza owners about what IM are pushing out at the moment. Sorry that doesn't match up to your IM PR handbook.

don't really understand this. Its like saying Ford make better cars than anybody else in the UK because they sell more



If I thought the WR1 was worth changing over to from a P1 there would be one sitting on my drive right now. *IMHO* it isn't and never will be.

whiteyisback

scoobynutta - wot u trying to say ....at least come up with some p1ss poor excuse for subaru not making the car they really could have done ...lol...or at least tell me it doesnt really matter that there are other, better cars out there....(of course it's ok to part with your hard earned money only to find out that the motor made by the competition is better - wot the ****!)

Ford selling lots of cars....gr8 point...in fact i'd rather subaru werent selling as many cars then maybe that way they'd try harder to make a truely gr8 car....and ..dare i say it one that is capable of steeling the Evo's crown. I think u've hit the nail on the head here, Subaru has grown and have tried to make the impreza appeal to too many people...which of course is ok as long as their tune up firm - Prodrive can do the business with the hot versions....which in terms of the competition they are'nt.

anyway i'm off to do some lording down the pub, wotever that is....as long as it doesnt involve standing in a carry bag in the gents that is.....lolol...nice

MJW

But surely if you want :
a.) the performance of an Evo
b.) the handling of an Evo

you will just buy an Evo instead of moaning on a Subaru bulletin board that Prodrive aren't making their special editions fast/sharp enough !

And pity the poor Evo driver who needs to stay on top : ah, the FQ300 is out, great. Oh, there's now an FQ320, a 330... several months later a 340. Jesus, what next, will people be expected to chop in their MR340's for a MR342.5 just because it has lightweight carbon fibre cup-holders ?

Horses for courses, you buy the car that suits your needs best and the Impreza just covers more bases than the Evo, hence the sales volumes, irrespective of comparitive performance figures.

Twigster

Come on guys, let's not lower the level in this conversation, GM is as much right as we are and is in a position where he get's some information from people 'in the know' so to speak. Name-calling etc is not welcome, even if you are on a similar 'side' to my argument.

It is that simple though, when you think of Prodrive you think of the P1 and the performance upgrades they have produced which have deservedly earned them a good reputation. If you want eeryday driveability and performance there is the WRX, for a harder edge there is the sti, then the sti with ppp, and so naturally you would expect the WR1 to be a more focused car again than it is.

Unless that is, that the WR1 never was intended to be that type of car, but was always planned as an RB5 type special, which is merely an updated version of the currently available cars and NOT a rival to the top of the range Evo, which I believe is what GM and others have been saying. If this is the case, then Subaru have clearly shown that they have no intention of trying to go head to head with Mitsi in that respect and have produced a very good car.

This, however is not the point of this thread. The aim here is to discuss if prodrive are stil aiming to be the hardcore end of the Subaru range, and if they are taking the correct route to this end.....

DrEvil

I can remember similar discussions on here about the P1 many moons ago, and about how it wasn't all it was hyped up to be... You can't please all of the people all of the time.

greasemonkey

Ah, so we've finally got to the bottom of it with you then. You are "annoyed" because of the way the WR1 has been "shown" to be "2nd best" in comparison with the Mitsu. It's not like you've got one yourself and are disappointed in it, or that you're thinking of buying one by the sound of things. Again, it's down to pub talk. QED.

Incorrect. Not "every" person at all.

Yes it is, as you continually jabber on about how the WR1 isn't as good as it could be, and then don't tell us how it could be better. It's simple enough.

Again, what, exactly, is "the competition", and in what way does it fall short?

You would think that, wouldn't you?!

Lol, that's not as ridiculous as you first thought! I'm reliably informed that Mitsubishi are still bringing the Evo into the UK under SVA rather than going for full European Type Approval, which means that they can only sell 50 of each model here per year. This also explains there's a "new model" every few weeks, as it's the only way for Mitsu to get past the 50 vehicle limitation. If there are five "models" in the range, that means 50 cars multiplied by five, which means MMUK can sell a maximum of - 250 Lancers here in 2004. Or, if they do want to shift more, they'll probably put carbon cup holders on them, add another couple of letters to the model name and start the whole process again.

This also gives an idea of the numbers involved - MMUK's entire 2004 allocation adding up to roughly half the so-called "limited edition" WR1, without even thinking about all the "regular" STi's and WRXes that IM import.

Exactly the point I've been making all along. The people who want a car that drives like a Lancer will buy one. The people who want a car that drives like a Subaru will buy one, the people who like what the Focus RS does will buy one of those, and so-on.

That's exactly what the P1 was at the end of the day. It was P's take on the best GC8 that could be had for UK roads. It was also originally designed to be an edition of 500 - just like the WR1, so the two cars are almost identical in mission, not fundamentally different, which is what it sounds like you think.

Correct. I doubt that, at any time during its development process, anyone involved turned round and said "Hey, let's drive an Evo and make our car go like one". I doubt the P1 was used as a point of reference either, as the GC8 is a thing of the past and the best part of 200kg lighter than the GD - not something that can be changed.

The WR1 was intended to be the best current range Impreza available for UK roads, period. In the limited experience I've had of one, I'd say it probably is.

If the information I've been given re Mitsu's vehicle approval and sales figures is correct (and it certainly should be) you can see why they don't need to. You can also probably see why the practicalities involved in producing cars that can be sold by the thousand are fundamentally different to those involved in selling double figure quantities.

whiteyisback

are u having a laff mate ?...have u been reading some of the replies by GM ?....lolol....arrogant....mmm ...dont get me wrong i'm all up 4 a mass debate (nice doobler entondre!) just dont pull me up on it....

spot on...and in answer - no, prodrive are being about as hardcore as the teletubbies in making hardcore scoobs.....and i dont care who so and so knows....lol

maybe some of us take our subaru's a bit too seriously and should loosen the cagool from round there head...or is it just that they're suffering from subaru anoraknovosa....lol

Supercue

iTrader: (1)

PMSL.
Get a grip guys,Pro-Drive only follow the brief of the customer and in this case it's Subaru & IM. These are the people to moan at as regards designing a "Hardcore Rally Car" from Pro-Drive not PD themselves.

The harsh reality is that some people on here expected the WR1 to kick the Evos **** and it failed abismally. Truth is that Evo set a fantastic lap time regardless of who's driving and the Scoob didn't.

Now as things currently stand, I'm not really going to be in a position to change my Scoob for another 2yrs. I would however like to see Subaru/IM ask Pro-Drive to produce something that would make the Litchfield Type 25 look 2nd best, why????

Because I like many others would love to have a performance car with A/C, leather and electric windows, bumpsteer, sunroof for the kids and a 3yr warranty so that my Missus can sleep blissfully
Soft? Who gives a rats **** I like my toys if I can be indulged
If not I'll probably go down the Litchfield route.

Now as for Subaru going head to head with Mitsu there's no contest Mitsu are out cold on the floor! Look at the WRT Subaru consistantly finish in the points Mitsu are struggling to get a car to finish full stop. The Manufacturers points table illustrates this very well.
Sure it would be great as a spectacle if Mitsu could pick themselves up and compete as in years gone by but this doesn't look likely for some time does it?

Yes I want to see "Hardcore" machines from Subaru/PD realistically priced as they are now. To me WRX and STi are for the masses but the specials should come from PD with the little extras YOU choose to add to make your car that little bit special from everyone elses.

Mike, I know you watch the boards, if you are looking at this thread, is there any new products that we should keep our eyes open for or is the WR1 it for now?

messiah

I think Subaru are losing gound to mitsubishi - who seem a bit more focused it producing road missiles - anyone who looked under the bonnet of the fq340 at the motor show would have seen HKS bits & peices all over the place. IMHO Subaru should start giving the impreza a front mounted intercooler as standard and the bonnet scoop could then be utilised for venting cold air into the air filter. I think they should start looking at what happens to cars when the "modders" get hold of them.

In relation to the thread title, then I think an off the shelf impreza should be suitable for anyone who wants to buy one for everyday use, and the sti should be the entry "performance" model with the PPP pack reserved for major nutters, and prodrive should aiming to have a higher BHP count than mitsubishi...

greasemonkey

Dunno about that. Mitsubishi's cars have always been more "hardcore" (not the best word but it it fits). The Evo VI was arguably a "better" track car than the P1, so the difference in focus has always been there. As for the "road missiles" comment, I'd suggest the WR1 is every bit as capable on the road as the latest Lancers.

That's because, as mentioned above, the MR FQ340 is brought in under SVA, and thus Mitsu have the same level of freedom Litchfields and PE had when creating the Type 25.

Eh? Do you want to think about that one again, as it just doesn't work in practice. The pipework necessary to get air from the scoop, through a filter, through a MAF tube, through the turbo, though a front-mount intercooler and back into the throttle body would be tortuous. Even if you got it working you would find that the inlet air pressure would vary hugely with car speed and yaw angle. Taking it from the front of the car is much more consistent.

Lol. So they get involved in a commercial pissing contest, with Prodrive producing an upgrade every time Mitsu bring out something "new"? Since when does that make business sense, either on its own terms, or in keeping your current customer base and dealers happy?

I gather the reasons why are more to do with the way the tyre fitted to the WR1 handles track use than anything other single reason. The car I've played with didn't understeer like that on the road, quite the opposite.

Litchfield have created a very good product, but one that is aimed at a very small market that IM probably don't have any interest in. 50 cars a year (tops) isn't likely to be worth the effort. It's also relatively easy for Litchfield to control the risks with the Type 25, as they can only be serviced in one place (at the moment at least).

Lol, don't we all! The term "having your cake and eating it" springs to mind. Unfortunately there's a big difference between someone like Litchfield Imports selling cars under SVA and a large concessionaire like IM trying to compete on the same terms. The grey importers will always have advantages in this situation, and to a certain extent, that's how it should be. There should always be space for the "little guy" to come in and do what Iain has done. If you like the Type 25, and IM don't do anything that meets your needs as well, go buy a Type 25!

ARM-Scooby

On b roads i would argue that the mitsu is behind the scooby, well the 300 & 330 versions that i have come up against in my 04sti. They dont corner as well on bumpy terrain, fair enough they go like a missile in a straight line, but i am still looking for a b road minus the corners.

Edcase

LMFAO!!!

Is this thread STILL going??!

How many times do the facts need to be written over and over before people understand?

GM you have more patience than me mate

Supercue

iTrader: (1)

Says the man who will spend hours going over the same game time and time againLOL

Funny that the TG WR1 was/is the only one to understeer like that I agree tho the tyre choice would have a great impact on lap times.

Believe me that's exactly what I intend to do but IM may surprise us all yet

Errrr why the **** not IM gets it's pound of flesh that's for sure.

Seriously, the way car prices are reducing it's inevitable that IM will have to offer very good value for money to attract new business just like all the other marques that are in this price bracket.

greasemonkey

That's simple enough to understand. The car had been tooling round "practicing" to the extent that the tyres had overheated (and were comprehensively knackered) by the time the cameras were switched on.

The reason the tyres don't do the same thing on the road is because it's practically impossible to push to the same extent, and thus you don't get so much heat into them.

Voila.

Offering value for money to the existing customer base is not necessarily the same thing as catering to relatively small niche markets. As you say though, time will tell.

*Sonic*

as to which car is quicker on the road, they can all only do 70mph maximum anyway

I personally dont give a rats *** which is quicker or which is better, I like and drive Subaru's for my own reasons

I have driven an RB5, a P1, been in a completly mental RA, & Bugeye, and out of all of them, I prefer my own car, as I know it pretty much inside out

My current finances dont stretch to buying new cars every time they come out, and yes they are nice, and by all accounts (speaking to owners) they are very good cars, and hence usually the reason they bought them, not because one is better than another (unless you have a lot of pub mates , or do competetive motorsport )

With regards to the comments on the WR1's handling, isnt a lot of the comments based upon the drivers ability more than the actual car setup ?

Steve

Jza

Here is a question for you. If the they had tested the P1 WR against the Evo in the top gear program.... would the P1 WR have been quicker or slower than the WR1?

Was the P1 WR cutting edge at the time, or similar to the WR1 in that its a jack of all trades?

Jza

Supercue

iTrader: (1)

Never driven a P1 so can't help on this one.

greasemonkey

Are you talking about testing a P1 against the car that was actually shown in the programme, or against something more contemporary - like an Evo VI?

I don't know where you get the idea that being "cutting edge" and being good at everything are mutually exclusive. Whatever, the P1 was designed with the same set of parameters as the WR1 - to be the best UK Impreza you could drive on the road, while the Lancer Evos of the time were out and out homologation specials.

In this respect, there was probably even more difference between the P1 and a contemporary Evo than there is between the WR1 and the Evo VIII MR. As the WR1 has DCCD-A you could say the gap has closed in some ways.

hawkeye

hmmmm i think some people who bought a "uk22b" might think they got the best uk imprezza at the time

just my two peneth worth

greasemonkey

Pedantic point Hawkeye but you're still slightly off base. The 17 22B Type UK's were all sold long before the first P1's went on sale.

hawkeye

Hence my point that maybe just maybe the P1 wasnt or the Wr1 isnt the best UK car ever produced................ but thats

a another story/discussion

b very emotive for the people who have each model

Jza

Im just wondering if the WR1 is a step backwards compared to the P1 WR.... in terms of outright performance "for its time" Sure its quick (WR1)... but is the WR1 less focused? I'm trying to think in terms of what the car was developed for (relating to my poll) - then and now - but have never drove a P1 WR to compare against

Jza

hawkeye

id certainly say that if and its a big if IM ever "commisioned" a p1wr or 22b type replacement now........ ie £40000 + then they would be exclusive and would get sold, also it would put subaru back on top of the pile...

the p1 if memory serves me right was about £37000 ?

the uk 22b £45-50000??

therefore £30k wr1 is a bargin....... but with more money they could develop a belter

Jza

Thats an interesting point... until you think that you can get a Spec C out of the wrapper that outperforms the Wr1 FOR LESS Why cant IM just give us the Spec C ?

Jza