greasemonkey

Lol, you can't have it both ways! If you think IM should sell a "hardcore" Impreza, it wouldn't exactly please potential buyers like Scoobynutter and Jza if it still had the suspension setup that caused such ignominy on Top Gear, would it? No, if you wanted a hardcore Impreza, the only logic would be to equip it with "hardcore" suspension.

That's not really practical from the importer's point of view.

Eh? That's not the cleverest comment you've come up with so far tbh. If you were IM, why would you deliberately discourage your current customer base from wanting to buy the new car? The WR1 is designed to appeal to current UK Impreza owners who want something that does everything their current car does, but better, while also offering a level of exclusivity that the regular WRX and STi Type UK can't match. It meets that target very well.

Trouble with saying things like this is that is that, when you actually come down to it, it doesn't mean anything. Let's go with it though. If you were speccing the WR1, tell us how, specifically, would you have made the car more "agressive" without diluting its appeal, and without violating the technical constraints within with IM/Prodrive were forced to work.

The car you are talking about exists. It's called the STi Type RA Spec C, and if you want one you can buy them in either direct from Japan or via the various importers.

Lol, yeah! Who said sensible, adult debate was dead on SN?

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Oh ill add my bit now
So how many of you are going to go out and now change your scoob for an evo?
Actually how many of you will do this and dont even take your car near a track???
The BIG test is on the road, you WILL do more road miles than track miles, period.
Take the evo out and drive it for 1000 miles, do the same for the impreza, you will find that your more likely than not, prefer the impreza, because its designed better for that job than the evo, simple, and you wonder why you dont see many evo's? is it because they are expensive to run, is it because they are a very harsh car on the road and you get jolted about more than you do in a scoob? is it that they are no where near as practical a car as the impreza, or is it all three
If it were all about performance, you can go out and buy the ultimate in a Lambo Diablo for WR1 money, 200mph car but a right git to drive.
Point made

Tony
PS i bought my Spec C because i wanted something a little more hard core, not because it was faster

RB5 Paul

I give up lol

Dazza's-STi

Agree fully...

If it were a simple speed and track handleing sum then we would all have an Arial Atom 225... for the same $$$ as the scoob... or a caterham...
When was the last time you saw a caterham through the week?
exactly, the road driving bit has a lot to do with it, and the Scoob is a very good road car with 98% of the ability of the Evo...
and that 2% gain in performance and track abitly cost that bit more... becouse of this you can't drive it a s much unless you have lots of $$$ and its hard to live with...
take ya pick...
I know if were a performance choice I'd have a R500 superlight as it is I'lll settle for the scoob + i looks the bogs dollocks!

Twigster

If it was a matter of choice I would like to have seen the WR1 sold at a similar spec to the spec C. I mean, let's face it the P1 was, essentially a Sti 'type R' remapped for UK fuel and without the dccd (Genralisation I know but they are remarkably similar spec). I don't really see how this couldn't have been done for the WR1, although I believe it is to do with emissions?? (Correct me if that is wrong).
As for buying a spec C instead of the WR1, I think if it was available with a full dealer warranty for three years with an option for more as the UK cars are, I would suggest that a lot more people would buy them. I don't however, think that we are talking about a broadly available car, after all 500 cars or so is a fairly limited edition!!

greasemonkey

Lol, that's cheating! When I asked you exactly how you'd make the WR1 more "aggressive", I said you had to do it within the same technical constraints as IM and Prodrive, and without reducing its appeal. IM can't sell the Spec C over here even if they wanted to, and omitting stereo, electric everything and aircon would definitely limit its appeal, don't you agree?

The P1 was, yes. As for it being mapped for UK fuel, that's a slightly contentious point (primarily to the folks who've had engine failures). It's a Japanese fuel map with more active knock correction, and a couple of Broquets in the fuel tank. The WR1 by contrast has a full UK map.

Because that was then, this is now. Since the P1 was introduced the emissions and crash test standards applied in Europe have become somewhat stricter, apart from any other commercial considerations IM have.

You are correct. As mentioned above, the twin scroll turbo setup used on the 2003MY and onward JDM STi's doesn't currently pass Euro emissions tests. This is also why there's no turbocharged new shape Legacy available in Europe.

I don't know for sure, but there is also a questionmark over whether the Spec C would pass a Euro-NCAP crash test without the front subframe installed.

It's a moot point as IM can't sell the Spec C, no matter how big they think the market is. Even then, as mentioned above, they're hardly likely to sell a car oriented for track use when their warranty specifically prohibits such use, are they?

If you want a car like that, you'll have to go the import and third party warranty route.

Don't know about that actually. I can't remember where I heard this, and indeed whether it's accurate, but someone definitely told me that, in 2002, IM sold something like 790 STi Type UK's. In that context, you can see why the WR1 has a "mass market" feature set, and also why they can't be arsed with double figure, genuinely limited editions. The costs involved in type approval, crash testing and so-on just don't make sense.

Edcase

When I was planning to go the whole hog and strip my bugeye down I was assured that was the case, it was only put in to make doubly certain it passed in the US.

ARM-Scooby

I keep my 04sti for b roads, as I live in the sticks. I have not been on a track in it but have come across evo 8’s a couple of times. The first one was a b road and I was behind a fq300, I found it really easy to keep up and had to back off eventually with all of the stones being thrown up. On the second occasion I was in the city centre on some really smooth flat roads, I had a 330 in front this time, I found it pretty tough to keep up but put it down to the extra power he had. Finally I found myself behind a 330 on some back roads, this time I found myself right on him on all bends only loosing out on the straight stretches. For me this is the reason I have the car, I am not really into bombing around city centre’s, I have always lived in the sticks and driven b roads, it’s a great buzz. For these reasons I bought the scoob, and my past wrx. I am not too bothered about track days, and as has been said I would want something other than scoob for them (noble, tvr etc), I want a road car that can handle bumpy b roads, or tracks in some cases.

whiteyisback

gotta say though that there is definately lots of room for improvement on the handling front for the 2003/4 impreza - both in sti and wrx guise without ruining the current cars ride....for starters they could pay much closer attention to tyre choice and suspension geom before letting the cars roll out of their showrooms. what argument can anyone give me on that front ? cost ? i dont think so.
My guess is that change alone would satisfy a good proportion of owners handling gripes.

As for Prodrive well i think they have lost their way, they should be providing the best handling impreza. full stop. and they're not. dont get me wrong here - i dont mean the best handling as in comfortable on UK roads or best car to drive all day or cover long distances in. They should create a performance car that is special at...guess what...performance.

If joe public really wants a comfortable (and still good handling) impreza then they can go to their local subau dealer and buy a standard sti or wrx. We really dont need a racing/engineering outfit like Prodrive to produce slightly warmer versions.

in a nutshell: Prodrive should give us the option to buy the best handling, most powerfull impreza. And Subaru (or IM) can carry on giving us the softer option.

greasemonkey

My response would be the same as the one to Twigster when he said the WR1 should have been more "aggressive". It's easy to say, but if it was so easy, don't you think they'd do it? The cars should certainly have a geometry check before reaching their owners, but that's a dealer quality/PDI issue rather than anything to do with Prodrive.

How do you know? Again, don't talk generically, tell us quite specifically how you would make the WR1's handling "better", bearing in mind of course that issues like this are very personal and subjective, especially in a roadgoing context.

I'd suggest that they do aim to create the best handling Impreza possible - for the widest variety of drivers on the widest variety of roads. At end of day if they tried to create something that worked best on a track in the hands of a skilled driver, it would be an evil, dangerous c**t of a car on normal public roads in the hands of Joe Average, so an element of realism is always necessary.

Lol, they do. Roll up there tomorrow with a cheque for three hundred and sixty thousand-odd quid and you can order a 2003 spec Impreza WRC. You can even get them right hand drive nowadays.

If you meant road cars, Prodrive don't sell Subaru roadcars to the general public in the UK, period. The only roadgoing Subarus you tend to be able to buy from them are secondhand SWRT team cars.

You are missing the point here entirely. Prodrive don't give you any options at all, and it's not a case that IM give you one thing and P give you something else. Every official UK market Subaru comes from IM. That includes the P1, the WR1, the 22B Type UK and anything else.

Prodrive will develop whatever IM commission them to develop, using whatever donor car, design brief/constraints and development budget IM give them. Thus, it's hardly a case of Prodrive losing their way, they're doing exactly the job they're given. The fact that all 500 WR1's were sold without the slightest difficulty not only indicates that they created an appealing package, it also suggests that the original development brief was pretty close to what a lot of buyers wanted.

ozzy

Greasemonkey,

Serious question.

Why don't IM just import the JDM-spec 2 litre or USDM-spec 2.5 litre and sell these as the top-of-the-range Impreza's? Isn't that the line Ralliart take with the Evo or am I missing something?

Do FHI actually manufacture the current UK-spec Impreza for sale in the UK only or do they manufacture one model for Euro countries and it's the local distributor (IM in our case) that make any cosmetic/spec changes?

Stefan

markwild

Not really sure what relevance the speed of an EVO has on my enjoyment of my Impreza - Its no worse than it was before the article...

If you're upset that the EVO is faster, does it upset you when you read about faster scoobs - Or do you have the best impreza in the world... ?

I became interested in the impreza/evo world because of the rally image - I liked the impreza best, and bought one. - Its a 98UK model, I'm certain that its not the best looking, the best handling or the fastest, but I love it !

I've spent a small fortune on it and will continue to do so, whether Clarkson or anyone on here says I'm a fool for wasting my money, or not, BECAUSE I WANT TO!

Enjoy the car you bought, or get another one... but stop letting everyone else's view cloud your own - if you want a car that everyone else thinks is 'the best' then I'm afraid you're knackered - so I'd give up or grow up now if I were you ....

Mark

greasemonkey

Have you not read the rest of the thread Stef? The fundamental reason they don't import the JDM car into Europe (or the USA) is because the 03/04 Japanese spec engine doesn't comply with US and EU emissions regs.

As to why they don't bring a version of the USDM 2.5 car here, I can't on the face of it think of a technical reason why that powertrain configuration couldn't be sold here, so can only assume it's a commercial issue and thus something only IM could answer with authority. I'd presume it's simply the case that given the size of the UK market they don't feel they need to. Maybe that'll start to change if Mitsubishi's broadening of the Evo range starts to hit sales, who knows?

Ralliart don't sell UK Evos, MMUK do. Pedantry aside though, it's obvious that Mitsu don't have the same emissions issues with the twin scroll turbo that Subaru do. Either that or the numbers of Evos coming in are still small enough that they're managing to get by without full EU type approval.

The reason the UK and "Euro" Imprezas often get lumped in together and have a similar spec is firstly because they all come under Euro type approval regs, and secondly because FHI, like most global companies, seems to treat UK/Europe as a common sales market.

Imprezas manufactured for the UK market are manufactured specifically for the UK market, yeah, as they leave the factory with RHD, mph speedo, RHD headlights, rear foglight on the right etc. It's not like they're manufactured left hook like the other "Euro" cars and IM converts them after arrival in this country. Just seems as though the European agents have the ability to order cars to UK spec - hence all the parallel importation.

ozzy

No, I hadn't read all the thread. Couldn't be bothered wading through all the complaining , so thought I'd ask directly

Thanks for answering my questions

Stefan

Desert Fox

I thought that Prodrive were an engineering company soley paid by manufacturers to produce primarily rally cars. Bare in mind the gearboxes used on the WRC cars are prodrives own design and are approximately £50,000 all singing all dancing electronic doodas. Add to that all the other "special" internals of the engines which are designed and altered for racing, but have a very short life expectancy and you have a very quick car.

To my knowledge, Prodrive improve upon the manufacturers specifications simply because the manufacturers either do not have the knowledge, or the time to invest in performance improvements. Yes we would all like powerful good handling cars, but we will not pay the high cost of producing one. Ask yourself why the GP teams have engine design and building done by independant tuning companies and not at the manufacturers factories.

Lets face it a WRC car costs somewhere in the region of £250,000 to build, that will produce only 300hp (and more if permitted) will you pay it and only manage 1000 miles before a rebuild, I think not?.

No I'm not nerd, but I'm interested in why some people require extortionate amounts of horsepower to drive in straight lines, very dull and uninteresting. Now, if it were around the twisties, I'll put myself up against any horsepower and anybody.

greasemonkey

That's not really accurate. They're a multidisciplinary firm who work in a number of areas, from development and production work on roadcars to involvement in all forms of motorsport, not just rallying.

To a certain extent that's accurate. Whether it's in terms of developing and running a competition car, to developing a special edition roadcar, companies like this are able to offer specific skills and facilities that mainstream motor manufacturers tend to lack.

whiteyisback

nice one greasemonkey, you're right and wrong on some on this:

yes, the WR1 could have easily been made to handle better without spending more than a couple of hundred pounds. It is easy to do and yes they should have done it (why not?) for starters a decent geom setup before letting the customer drive off would be nice - how many new impreza's are setup to understeer like mad from new ?

As for my comment about Prodrive producing fine handling imprezas i would have thought that would have been obvious...**** me why do you think subaru give them the cars to produce in the 1st place, it's not because they're gr8 at ICE installs or leather re-trims...lol....this is Prodrive we're talking about here. Unless of course it's just a good marketing ploy by Subaru to get a WRC firm like Prodrive to produce their hot versions so they sell...no way,.....as if....lol.

Without wanting to upset any new WR1 owners, it doesnt handle as well as it could.....or without putting a fine point on it as well as a spec c, type 25, evo 8 blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm not on here to talk about the old boring debate of which car handles better than wotever xr4isatsumafannymagnet so and so has just produced but if you're asking me then no I dont think the WR1 was built with handling at the top of it's priorities, which is my point - it should have been. We'd all have loved to read and watch on tv journo's spouting on about the WR1 being the best handling car of it's type you can buy today. But they're not because it isnt. Simple really.
and therein begs the question why get Prodrive involved at all ?

You're comments about IM and Prodrive though are spot on: it does seem as though Prodrive will develop whatever IM commissions them to. It's a shame they (Prodrive) dont get to have much more of a say in the final outcome and decisions in design brief, etc. I'd love to see Prodrive concentrating 100% of their allocated budget on extracting the most power from the engine and the best handling from the suspension. They might also want to consider buying up some of what the competition have to offer and having a long, hard look at what makes them handle so well, straight out of the box.

Lastly u commented on my understanding of handling and set up, etc - my Ariel Atom is a car that has been developed soley with one purpose - to handle well. The car doesnt try to be anything else and you can tell within 10 mins of driving it that it does everything else badly. It does what it says on the tin. Maybe prodrives WR1 tin should say " good looking impreza with a few of our aftermarket parts fitted" ?
Lastly, I'm not in anyway saying that the WR1 is bad car, it isnt - it just doesnt handle as well as it could.

16vmarc

Some good comments there. Subaru need to release a car that can really compete with the Evo though. And in my opinion at the moment they dont.

greasemonkey

How do you know this isn't done, and what gives you the idea that the WR1 "understeers like mad"? The Top Gear thing?

...And the WR1 doesn't "handle fine" because...?

How, specifically? In what way is your opinion worth more than the (overwhelmingly happy it would seem) WR1 owner base, or indeed the development team responsible for the car?

No, it would have been handling, ride, throttle response and a stack of other parameters. Whether you care to admit it or not no mass market car is going to be engineered with one single parameter as the be-all and end all. It's a family saloon ffs, not a Caterham.

Lol, I don't give a f**k what anyone - Journalists, TV presenters, or whoever, thinks of any car. Most of them can't drive as well as I can so why should their opinion count for anything? It wouldn't worry me whether Clarkson raved about the car or hated it.

[qupte] But they're not because it isnt. Simple really. [/quote]Lol, again you're attaching far too much importance to public perception and pub talk. The answer here is simple. If you want a car that handles like an Evo, buy a frigging Evo. If you want a car that has the Spec C's balance of strengths, buy one of those. If you want a car that goes like the Type 25 and can be serviced in any Subaru dealer in the UK, well, tough **** cos it doesn't exist.

The WR1 is about as good as it can be given the fact that it's a full UK car with a full UK warranty, and that it's designed to be driven on any road, by anyone.

Pmsl, you expect IM to sell a car that is as uncompromising as the Atom - a car for which, lest we not forget, even the windscreen is an optional extra?

Again, unless you're going to be specific about the ways you'd make it better, your argument doesn't really carry much weight. At end of day it'll take four people and their luggage a darn sight faster down a B-road than your Atom will, which for the cars owners is likely to be the important thing.

Er, WTF are you talking about? "Competing" with the Evo?

Don't compete in what way exactly? The only arena in which there is direct competition (in the proper sense of the word) between the Impreza and the Evo is in rallying, and it doesn't seem as though Subaru have much to worry about there at the mo, does it?

If you're talking about road cars, Imprezas currently outsell the Evo by ratios of several to one in the UK, so, again, don't see what on earth you're talking about with this need to "compete" with the Lancer. As someone's said above, buying a car is (should be) a case of ticking boxes and buying the car with the most ticks and the least crosses against it. Seems that the current range of Subarus does very well in that regard.

If your only desire is for Subaru to produce a road car sufficient to stop your Evo owning mate taking the p*ss out of you down the pub, frankly, you need to grow up a bit.

Twigster Home

lol @ greasemonkey
Thought emissions was the reason. However, if I was prodrive I am not sure if I would want my product being labelled as second rate by let's be honest, most of the motoring media. I would be very interested to hear what Mike Wood makes of the media reaction to the car, and to be honest I am still surprised by the reaction to it from the Subaru community in this country! Surely it can't be a good thing for the company to have threads like this posted and runnning on the biggest Subaru forum in Europe at least!!??

That said, it is a great car, I just can't help feeling that Subaru has lost some of it's edge over the last three years in it's now appealing to a wider audience. Although I accept that there is little to nothing that we can do to change that fact.
As for Subaru not competing with Mitsubishi, I would argue that they are! Ok, perhaps not in numbers because the evo has never really competed on that front, but in terms of reputation and international standing (not in the US so much I know) they are almost always compared to each other, especially by people who don't have them. (Listen to average person and they think they are essentially the same). Surely in this sense, it cannot be a good thing for the company for Mitsubishi to be giving them a bloody nose at seemingly every level! Let's not forget, the new 260 lancer is a direct attempt at stealing sales from Subaru, if it will succeed or not I am not sure but we shall see.

One thing is certain though, in terms of mass marketing strategy I think that Subaru have currently got no real oppostion in this category!

In terms of power, I dont think that is the WR1's problem, it seems more to be the suspension, so in that respect what was there to prevent prodrive adapting the spec C's handling and 'mellowing' it slightly for everyday use?? (Just a question, not a suggestion)

greasemonkey

Fair point though, innit?

At end of day I doubt they'll be overly worried. I can tell you from extensive personal experience that you can't control what the media does and says, no matter what the reality of the situation. In any case, "most of the motoring media"?

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the "Scoobynet community" is the same thing as UK Subaru owners/potential buyers. As for what Mike thinks, why don't you ask him?

Not sure what you mean there. This thread started with a couple of vexed fanboys (who haven't ordered WR1's anyway) getting all wound up because they won't be able to lord it over their mates in the pub anymore, primarily in reaction to a spectactularly unscientific "test" on Top Gear . If it were full of WR1 owners complaining about the **** handling they're being forced to put up with, that'd be one thing. As things stand this thread is more a reflection of the thought process of some Scoobynet users than a genuine reflection of the merits of Subaru cars.

Again, methinks you're mixing Subaru's desire to broaden their appeal with simple progress in the car industry. The primary reason the newer Imprezas are heaver and "softer" is because of things like crash testing and emissions regs, nothing at all to do with FHI's commercial objectives.

Really? In which case, why did you say...

C'mon, you can't have it both ways! Now you're making it look like Mitsubishi are trying to compete with Subaru. Why would they need to do that if they were already "ahead"?

We don't know what starting point they had, so it's possible that this is exactly what they did.

Either way some changes would almost certainly need to be made as the WR1 is heavier than the Spec C and also has a slightly more nose-heavy weight distribution, so it's unlikely the lightweight car's suspension setup would be sprung or damped ideally if swapped straight over.

Again you'd have to ask the people concerned about this, but as far as I'm aware Mike was happy that the suspension setup on the WR1 was the "best" it could be, given the wide variety of conditions in which the car will be expected to work. I don't know what the starting point was, or indeed what the difference in springing and damping rates is between what's on the WR1 and what's on the Spec C, but why is it so hard to believe that the people who developed the car didn't actually get the balance as good as they could.

Like I said before, it's not as though this thread is full of owners complaining about the handling of their cars, is it?

16vmarc

[QUOTE=greasemonkey]
Er, WTF are you talking about? "Competing" with the Evo?
QUOTE]


Oh come on. Whats the Imprezas nearest rival? Just like an R1 is camparable to a GSXR

greasemonkey

You didn't answer my question Marc. I asked you in what way, specifically, Subaru need to "compete" with the Evo.

Is it in terms of sales volume? Subaru are winning that one hands down at the mo.
Is it in terms of motorsport success? Subaru are pissing on Mitsu at the moment.
Is it in terms of purchase price and/or servicing and insurance costs? Think you'll find the Impreza is cheaper to run than an Evo over a couple of years.

At end of day IM don't need to compete with the Mitsu because the people who buy Subarus ultimately do so because of the car's combination of strengths. In short, they buy precisely because it's a Subaru, not because it's an Evo wannabe.

If you wannayourcartobeanEvo, p*ss off and buy one.

16vmarc

No i agree with most of what you put above, but outright performance wise i dont think theyre up there with the evo. Maybe im wrong to compare the two, but it seems where ever you look time and time again the two are compared. Which is why im comparing (possibly wrongly) the two. As for your last comment i cant afford either the Evo or the latest STi, the MY00 PPP cripples me enough imo.

greasemonkey

So you haven't actually driven either then? In which case how have you managed to form the opinion that the STi isn't "up there" with the Evo?

Why so desperate to join in, especially when, as you freely admit, you're not in a position to buy either car?

16vmarc

Why not, its called interest.

greasemonkey

Interest is sitting back and seeing how the discussion goes. Volunteering an opinion about one car "not being up with" another when it transpires that you don't actually have any experience of either is something slightly different.

16vmarc

But are you in the market for a new subaru now?

WR1 Wannabe

Er, where does it say that, exactly? I've got a few of the current car mags here and they all say things like "Awesome!". It's only on this board that I've seen people rubbishing the car.

Even TG, despite that episode, certainly don't regard the car "second rate" - it beat a helluva lot of other cars around that track! (Including a 911 Turbo, an NSX-R, an M3, an RX-8 and an Esprit V8, if me figures are up to date).

Twigster Home

I should realise on hear people take your exact words!
First response; WR1, Evo mag rate it below the p1, which is an older car, and below it's only comparable rival, the Evo. and that is but one example. But ok, "second rate" was an incorrect choice of words!!!

I hate to say it but scoobies ain't cheap to run either! So I don't put too much credit on that one (although I appreciate the point).

Second, Grease;For the Impreza, it's only real rival has always been the Evo, and I would think that to stay ahead of the game there should always be an option to go for a scooby with the same attitude as Mitsi seem to have. That said, it is only handling we are talking about here as to my mind, having driven an evo7 and been in a FQ300, I can say that in raw power terms there is little or nothing to choose between the two.
So, the question is this: Why, when mitsi have seemingly almost perfected AYC and whatever else they have on the car and seemingly produced a car which is at least, similarly priced in actual purchase costs alone (for now let's leave it here), do Subaru seem to produce cars which (and I have been in sti ppp and WR1) seem less well balanced when cornering at speed??
I only ask this in view of the (relatively) cheap suspension mods (bumpsteer and arb's etc) which dramatically improve the handling ability of the Impreza?

As for asking Mike Wood, er, that's what I was trying to do!! (Although I don't expect him to do anything other than praise the car, that would be bad business practice!!) I am genuinely interested in what they make of the feedback from the press which I think it is fair to say has been generally 'lukewam'?

Last of all, with reference to the threads, I simply mean that there have been a few lately which seem to have criticised the car, some of which have been from people who have driven them (although mostly the usual crap).

For the record, I love the friendly rivalry that you can have with the Mitsi guys, as someone who loves rallying I long for Mitsi to get back to the top to be racing with Suabru as it was always one of the great rivalry's to watch in motorsports! Also, accepted Mitsi are nowhere in WRC but they still seem to be doing ok in group N rallies, especially in the Irish championships (thanks to men and motors for what is quite good coverage )!!