Adam M

SteveB.

I cant believe teh comment that the wrc and F1 doesnt affect your car.

Teh development of the wrc is the essence of your engine. It has to use a standard production block. I doubt you would ahve even heard of your car if it werent for rallying.

On top of this, Alcon only supply brake upgrades for your car, because they agreed to supply free brakes to the wrc. Brembo and ap dont supply free brakes to motorsport teams, because they dont need to.

It is nice you are happy with your brakes, I have been in chucks car, and they do work well. but there is no way you can compare the two products, they are in a different league in terms of reputation.

If you insist on buying prodrive parts all your life, you wil pay the premium. Is a prodrive P1 worth 32k when you can buy an sti 5 type r for 20k? You are paying for the prodrive name. I believe the same goes for the brakes. You are paying because prodrive endorse it.

Medders,

Dont let scare mongering disuade you. Just ask porsche, ferrari, aston martin, mclaren, what they choose to fit to their cars.

I have had my aps for some time, and have had no problems, except my crasgh helmet smashing into the windscreen when losing 100mph on the straight at bedfrd .

If mike is biased, you have to ask. Why did he choose to sell aps in the first place when he had the choice of the market, but then maybe ap offered him free brakes for his rally team, in exchange for him commercially selling his products?

Mike did they do this?

Neil Smalley

Yes it's pad material. Shame on me for not cleaning my brakes properly

carl

FWIW it was the Brembo 'Group N' discs (cheap upgrade) that Mike said he could warp in 10 minutes, not Scoobysport's (more expensive) Brembo kit (early versions of which did suffer warping problems).

I too didn't watch rallying before buying a Scoob, but it certainly gives it an edge over a Nissan 200SX, for example. As I said before, Subaru must think that it sells cars otherwise they wouldn't be involved (and who had heard of Subaru in 1994?).

To add some balance, one of the advantages of the Prodrive/Alcon kit is that it will probably add value to the car at resale time. I'm not convinced an AP kit would do that, although you could always remove it and sell separately.

[This message has been edited by carl (edited 05 September 2001).]

Danny Fisher

Medders, at the end of the day. It's your money and YOU need to decide which upgrade is best for you.

Dan

bob

I did not want to get into the my brakes are better than your brakes argument, but after reading these posts thought I would reply.

Of course you can compare the products, I found next to no difference between them. So would recommend AP’s just as much as Alcon’s on performance.

We then go on to Prodrive prices and the P1’s. What the P1’s have got to do with it I don’t know but;
Before buying my P1 I looked at the STI prices and they were 26-28 grand I then found I could get a P1 for 28 grand and took the P1. I could not find a new STI for 20,000. Yes I could find a STI back in 1998 for 21,000 but not now. Or is Adam saying buy a second hand STI rather than a P1?

Back to brakes the Prodrive prices for the Alcon’s are cheaper than the AP’s 4-pot kit.
So on price I would give it to Alcon’s.

The Alcon’s look much better but this is only my opinion others may think different.

I had the choice of brake with my last car and found the post on the net complaining about purchasers of AP brakes not being able to get replacements on there disks that had warped. This was not acceptable for me so I went for the Alcon’s.

I had the same problem as the rest of the Alcon owners DS3000 pads but Prodrive replaced disks and pads at no cost. If the same problem had of happened with the AP kit. I think I would have been stuck in fairy dairy land trying to get replacements.

Therefore I think the brakes perform about the same, but the backup from the dealers is quite different. I have not tried the AP 6 pots so have not made any comments about them.

Adam M

I said sti 5 type r for 20k, you cant buy them new now, which is why it would have to be second hand hence 20k. I mention this cos it is what the p1 is based on. And there is no questioning prodrives inflated prices.

The original question to me was what are the best brakes I can get for the car.

In answer to this question, the best brakes for the raod going impreza in my mind is the AP six pot. It is more expensive than the alcon kit. But in terms of pad size, and brake making pedigree, AP is better than alcon. Looks are obviously a personal issue, but I think the APs are better looking. Bob doesn't. Fair enough.

Theer is no question of warranty in either case, so forget that aspect. Alcons will require a more expensive change when teh discs wear, there is no question of that.

APs, have a separate bell. so only the disc need be replaced.

[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 05 September 2001).]

bob

Adam/
That’s a bit unfair Adam I understand the P1 is expensive for what it is, but you are saying why buy a new Impreza when you can have a second hand MY95-96 for 8 grand.
You say the 6 pot AP’s are the best brakes for the Impreza they very well may be, I have never tried them. My comments where for the 4-pots AP’s and Alcon’s. I never got the AP’s or the Alcon’s to fade so is it worth the extra expense for the 6-pots? Depends on the amount of track days you do and if slicks are fitted I would think.

Alcon disks are more expensive but then Prodrive have fitted replacements free of charge. You cannot get them any cheaper than that.
AP’s/ well I have seen post where lads are waiting for months for replacement disks and are being fobbed of by the dealers. Some even told they are not warranted due to the user braking to hard. One AP dealer said, “Anyone could warp a set of AP disks in 10 mins.” And it was not until the lad posted onto the net he got satisfaction.
This is why I went for the Alcon’s.

Mike Tuckwood

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by bob:
<B>....Alcon disks are more expensive but then Prodrive have fitted replacements free of charge. </B>
Only because they got it wrong in the first place Bob.

<B>You cannot get them any cheaper than that.</B>
I bet you can't get them for that when they wear out next time Bob, That's when The "Prodrive Tax" will overtake the cost of the other brakes.


<B>AP’s/ well I have seen post where lads are waiting for months for replacement disks and are being fobbed of by the dealers.</B>

I've not seen that one, I certainly from memory have not had that problem?

<B>Some even told they are not warranted due to the user braking to hard. One AP dealer said, “Anyone could warp a set of AP disks in 10 mins.” And it was not until the lad posted onto the net he got satisfaction.</B>

Hmm, I'm fairly sure you've got that mixed up with the comment I made about being able to warp Brembo Grp N discs by abusing them.

<B>This is why I went for the Alcon’s. [/quote]

And if that's why you went for the Alcons, you went for them based on an erroneous assessment of the AP's?

Mike.

bob

Yes I do seem to have got the AP's and Brembo's muddled up. Best I shut up.
No I won't, I have sold my Prodrive Alcon kit and am now on the AP's side. I find std brakes good enough for me I don't drive fast enough for big brakes.

BTW my dealer said he would not give me any extra for my car because of the brakes he told me to take all my extras off they were worth nothing to him.

Mike Tuckwood

Hi Chuckster.

a) Ian had an AP 16" 4 pot kit, which "migrated" on a long term loan to Jase's car. I suspect he saw no poit in changing from 1 4 pot kit to another? Anyway, Ian's lines around Dono are soo good he doesn't NEED his brakes at all!

b) I think you'll find comments to feel were with different pads in the Alcon kit. I've had no on/off feel and feedback is excellent on 6 pots?

As for the knock on effect, although the photo's are no longer there, anyone remember the post by Birdy entitled

Adam M

If in doubt, go with the most expensive, bound to be the best.

bob

Adam/
Yes I have sold the Alcon Brakes. I always take others advice. got £500 for them. Now you have pointed out how crap my car is I think I will now sale that also. I was going for a 22B uk model but I don't think that will be as good as the import will it?
So anyone want a STI with a type r body (P1)less than 3000 miles SS exhaust giving 307 bhp
£25,000 or am I asking to much. Will take part/ex. No I'm not joking.

Adam M

Bob, it is not the same as buying a 8k my 95, as the P1 starts life as an sti 5 type r soI was comparing like with like.

It is interesting that they start with that car then remove all tyhe good bits. Like electronic centre diff, stronger rear drive shafts, 2 pot rear brakes and a quick steering rack.

So basically you can get the car for less money, take off the good bits and fit the equivalents from the normal imprezam, and then have an extra 2 to 3 k in you pocket by selling off the parts.

Hmmm. better make that 17k for an sti 5 type r.

Bob, the reason I ws talking AP six pots was because of the title of this thread. I thought thats what were asked about.

It isnt important.

If you cant get yours to fade, then there probably isnt much in the performance difference. But then again, someone else might be harder on the brakes than you.

So have you sold yours or not? I didnt see a by that comment, and thought it would be odd if you had switched over night.

chuckster

Since Mike mentioned me I'd better pitch in.
I have Alcons and they are fantastic, look much better IMHO (LOL I am a Prodrive poster-boy), and the customer service I've recieved is second to none. Yes they had the DS3000's initially, and the associated probs (ruined wheels and very quick wear) but this was all sorted out quickly and efficiently by my dealer and Prodrive FOC of course. If I need new pads/discs I can get them via next day delivery if not in stock at the dealers - to be honest I've had problems with parts direct from AP before and also getting bits from other third party scooby suppliers (Though dealing with Tuckwood is a pleasant experience too, damn him ).
If I wanted to do trackwork now I'd go for Alcons with DS3000 and track wheels - so I wouldn't have to worry about marking the pretty BBS alloys, but to be honest I think a caterham is on the horizon .
The reports I've read and feedback I've had from people are that AP 6's certainly work, but the feel is not as good as with the Alcons/Brembo/AP 4pot setup, AP6pots are either 'on' or 'off'.
This was from Rob Mac and Simon De Sideways, 2 of the more impartial guys on the scene.
Whats IanGratton running these days? He had AP6pots, but Alcons were fitted on the P1 he bought...did he ever swap back?
WHichever you choose you will be more than happy - for me now I think the best (though least aesthetically pleasing 'cos it's small) kit is the Brembo calliper/AP disc setup which fits under 16" wheels. Then you can get a nice set of cheap wheels n slicks for the track.
Just buy whatever you think is the sexiest, the performance will stagger you whatever you decide.
Regards
Chuck

chuckster

Oh and Adam, seems to me they didn't start off with an STI 5 type R, more like they just put a type R body on regular STI running gear....
Chuck

medders

Thanks for all the info guys. I'm amazed at how passionate you all are about your brakes

I must say though, stop mocking my car. I'm not going to defend it, as it's been done to death already, but leave P1's alone. Pick on TT's or something instead.

Thanks again for the info.

Medders

Hoppy

Everyone talks about AP, Alcon and Brembo as if the brand of caliper was the sole determining factor.

Brakes are a system, with key components being the disc, pad, and caliper, with the calipers being, relatively speaking, the least important.

Anyone commenting on brake performance must figure discs and pads into the equation, or the comment is meangingless.

On the subject of AP brakes (which I use) I discovered an interesting fact which buyers might like to know. If you want the real thing, it will come as a complete kit, boxed, from AP Racing. This is what Scoobymania and other dealers supply, but some suppliers put together their own bundle of components.

For example, the GGR 'AP kit' is not the same and not only comes with different pads but different discs also. The discs (for 6-pot calipers) might seem the same being 330x28mm, but they only have 24 cooling vanes and not 48 as found in the official kit. Therefore, they will not be able to absorb as much heat, nor will they be able to dissipate it as quickly.

Richard.

Neil Smalley

Hoppy is spot on

I asked AP about the difference in the 48 and 24 vane disks. This is what was said

The disc's CP5000-210 / 211G6 are from our economy range of Pro 5000 discs. Meaning instead of 48 cooling vanes they have 24 cooling vanes and the discs only come with 6 grooves on the brake face. The other significance is the weight reduction, if you run the car at a track day events I would strongly recommend the 48 vane version (CP3580-2898/9G8) because of it’s greater mass, stiffer casting and superior cooling capabilities will give it a longer service life.

They cost approx £40 more apiece though.

There we go, heavy track use go for 48 vane. fast road/light track the 24 vane is ok.

I also hear that carbon/metallic pads, although very good in use, tend to eat discs. That's why some kits don't supply them.

As in all things it's a question of personal preferance and balance.

Personally you will not be disapointed with any AP/Alcon etc kit from a reputable supplier.