S03's any good ??
13 July 2001, 04:42 PM
#92
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Thank you VERY much to BFE-Consumer Products for taking the time to answer that.
What a fabulous show of support.
rovo
LOL
Firstly, we were discussing radial tyres, not bias ply and secondly, you have based the "you're right about bias ply" conclusion on an opinion rather than any technical data.
I would be surprised if the load / pressure theory is not the same for cross ply tyres. In fact, in some ways, I would expect it to be more accuracte due to the construction. I am open to be proved wrong on this one though.
Cheers
Simon
What a fabulous show of support.
rovo
LOL
Firstly, we were discussing radial tyres, not bias ply and secondly, you have based the "you're right about bias ply" conclusion on an opinion rather than any technical data.
I would be surprised if the load / pressure theory is not the same for cross ply tyres. In fact, in some ways, I would expect it to be more accuracte due to the construction. I am open to be proved wrong on this one though.
Cheers
Simon
)
13 July 2001, 08:26 PM
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Hehe
I agree I can be stubborn.. but on this occasion I am just surprised that after so much oposition and discounting of the facts I added to the thread as a nothing more than rubbish, and especially your "next time you post something as fact, you better do some homework", that you don't seem to be willing to accept that the information I offered was entirely accurate.
I'm totally melow about it all
but it does surprise me a bit. Especially the "you're right about radials, and I'm right about cross ply" bit. Which shows that while you are not willing to accept the totally and conclusive and specific references I gave you (as you quoted them as being "inconclusive"), you are totally willing to accept something along the lines of "we do not expect this to be the case with cross ply tyres" as hard evidence that you were right
Surely, you can see, with ALL THIS independantly provided information from respectable sources stating exactly the same as I did that I may have actually been adding some facts / knowledge to the thread?
Cheers
Simon
I agree I can be stubborn.. but on this occasion I am just surprised that after so much oposition and discounting of the facts I added to the thread as a nothing more than rubbish, and especially your "next time you post something as fact, you better do some homework", that you don't seem to be willing to accept that the information I offered was entirely accurate.
I'm totally melow about it all
but it does surprise me a bit. Especially the "you're right about radials, and I'm right about cross ply" bit. Which shows that while you are not willing to accept the totally and conclusive and specific references I gave you (as you quoted them as being "inconclusive"), you are totally willing to accept something along the lines of "we do not expect this to be the case with cross ply tyres" as hard evidence that you were right Surely, you can see, with ALL THIS independantly provided information from respectable sources stating exactly the same as I did that I may have actually been adding some facts / knowledge to the thread?
Cheers
Simon
13 July 2001, 11:46 PM
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So Simon, do wider tyres provide more grip in the dry because you can run them on lower pressures thus increasing the contact patch?
Also what is a "steelbelt" which that tyre firm said would be wider in a wider tyre and how does it give more lateral grip?
Lastly - since when has it been agreed that S02s are the best tyre for the Impreza? On 17" wheels you have to run 215/40 lower profile tyres, which buggers up the ride quality and makes the car fidgety under hard braking on typical B road surfaces. Grip is not everything you know! Now if they made some in 205/45 I would buy them in a flash
Also what is a "steelbelt" which that tyre firm said would be wider in a wider tyre and how does it give more lateral grip?
Lastly - since when has it been agreed that S02s are the best tyre for the Impreza? On 17" wheels you have to run 215/40 lower profile tyres, which buggers up the ride quality and makes the car fidgety under hard braking on typical B road surfaces. Grip is not everything you know! Now if they made some in 205/45 I would buy them in a flash
14 July 2001, 01:50 AM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MatthewC:
<B>As a fellow Mazda owner I was interested in your comments. Was your 'Ring lapping in the dry?[/quote]
Mainly dry, but was wet for around 6 laps. I really wasn't pushing it thanks to my little Aremburg incident. I'm getting the remaining SO2s swapped for SO3s for my next trip in a fortnight, so I'll know more then about what they are like!
I'm hanging onto the hardly-used SO2s they take off, in case I don't get on with the threes and can get another pair from somewhere.
Ben
<B>As a fellow Mazda owner I was interested in your comments. Was your 'Ring lapping in the dry?[/quote]
Mainly dry, but was wet for around 6 laps. I really wasn't pushing it thanks to my little Aremburg incident. I'm getting the remaining SO2s swapped for SO3s for my next trip in a fortnight, so I'll know more then about what they are like!
I'm hanging onto the hardly-used SO2s they take off, in case I don't get on with the threes and can get another pair from somewhere.
Ben
14 July 2001, 12:20 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR><B>So Simon, do wider tyres provide more grip in the dry because you can run them on lower pressures thus increasing the contact patch?
[/quote]
You're gonna love this one..
No.. the area of the contact patch bares no direct relation to the level of grip (this again is not an exact science, but it is a very very nearly one (in fact I would be being pedantic to say it isn't)).
The things that affect grip are the co-efficient of friction and the load on the tyre.
A radial tyre should really be inflated to roughly the pressure it was designed for (in combination with the load that's on it) as it will have an ideal shape. The difficulty is that the weight changes all the time while driving, so you can (without getting into the nitty gritty) tune the pressures to allow the tyre to be at it's optimum shape during different transient states.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR><B>
Also what is a "steelbelt" which that tyre firm said would be wider in a wider tyre and how does it give more lateral grip?
[/quote]
This is getting into the construction side which I am no expert on.. but as I understand it...
the difference between a radial and cross ply tyre is that a cross ply tyre has a construction which is kind of moulded from one edge (at the rim) of the tyre to the other (at the other rim). This means that when you apply a lateral force to the contact patch, the whole tyre *rolls*.
A radial tyre has a flat (ish) steel band which goes around the circumference of the tyre (under the tread) and a secondary construction which forms the sidewalls (the two are linked together, but there is a higher degree of flex at the corner between the sidewall and the tread section that at the rest of the tyre...
the idea here is to allow the contact patch to move laterally, while the sidewalls pivot on the rim seats, keeping the tread part more flat on the road.
The difference as a driver is that the radial will normally have more lateral capability, but the cross ply will be more forgiving and driveable as the contact patch progressively narrows removing lateral grip slowly. where as the radial lets go in one hit (kind of) as the co-efficient of friction is reached.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR><B>
Lastly - since when has it been agreed that S02s are the best tyre for the Impreza? On 17" wheels you have to run 215/40 lower profile tyres, which buggers up the ride quality and makes the car fidgety under hard braking on typical B road surfaces. Grip is not everything you know! Now if they made some in 205/45 I would buy them in a flash[/quote]
The word "best" cannot be used to describe tyres. Unless you say something like they are the best at X, y, z.
The S-02 has without doubt the highest wet grip of any other road tyre available in the UK (that I know of). But I have always said that Toyo's are a great alternative as they are not as grippy, but are more progressive on the limit.
All the best
Simon
Ps. Good questions
[This message has been edited by Simon de Banke (edited 14 July 2001).]
[/quote]
You're gonna love this one..
No.. the area of the contact patch bares no direct relation to the level of grip (this again is not an exact science, but it is a very very nearly one (in fact I would be being pedantic to say it isn't)).
The things that affect grip are the co-efficient of friction and the load on the tyre.
A radial tyre should really be inflated to roughly the pressure it was designed for (in combination with the load that's on it) as it will have an ideal shape. The difficulty is that the weight changes all the time while driving, so you can (without getting into the nitty gritty) tune the pressures to allow the tyre to be at it's optimum shape during different transient states.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR><B>
Also what is a "steelbelt" which that tyre firm said would be wider in a wider tyre and how does it give more lateral grip?
[/quote]
This is getting into the construction side which I am no expert on.. but as I understand it...
the difference between a radial and cross ply tyre is that a cross ply tyre has a construction which is kind of moulded from one edge (at the rim) of the tyre to the other (at the other rim). This means that when you apply a lateral force to the contact patch, the whole tyre *rolls*.
A radial tyre has a flat (ish) steel band which goes around the circumference of the tyre (under the tread) and a secondary construction which forms the sidewalls (the two are linked together, but there is a higher degree of flex at the corner between the sidewall and the tread section that at the rest of the tyre...
the idea here is to allow the contact patch to move laterally, while the sidewalls pivot on the rim seats, keeping the tread part more flat on the road.
The difference as a driver is that the radial will normally have more lateral capability, but the cross ply will be more forgiving and driveable as the contact patch progressively narrows removing lateral grip slowly. where as the radial lets go in one hit (kind of) as the co-efficient of friction is reached.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR><B>
Lastly - since when has it been agreed that S02s are the best tyre for the Impreza? On 17" wheels you have to run 215/40 lower profile tyres, which buggers up the ride quality and makes the car fidgety under hard braking on typical B road surfaces. Grip is not everything you know! Now if they made some in 205/45 I would buy them in a flash
[/quote]The word "best" cannot be used to describe tyres. Unless you say something like they are the best at X, y, z.
The S-02 has without doubt the highest wet grip of any other road tyre available in the UK (that I know of). But I have always said that Toyo's are a great alternative as they are not as grippy, but are more progressive on the limit.
All the best
Simon
Ps. Good questions
[This message has been edited by Simon de Banke (edited 14 July 2001).]
14 July 2001, 04:50 PM
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Well guys,
Just to say thanks to all for providing an extremely interesting debate. I look forward to meeting you sometime and sharing my views then - this has gone on long enough !!
But...just to say IMHO it`s not until you go one to one against the clock that you really learn and find out about the finer points of your vehicle and it`s equipment. Science or no science !
Cheers
Just to say thanks to all for providing an extremely interesting debate. I look forward to meeting you sometime and sharing my views then - this has gone on long enough !!
But...just to say IMHO it`s not until you go one to one against the clock that you really learn and find out about the finer points of your vehicle and it`s equipment. Science or no science !
Cheers
14 July 2001, 05:51 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR><B>But...just to say IMHO it`s not until you go one to one against the clock that you really learn and find out about the finer points of your vehicle and it`s equipment. Science or no science ![/quote]
Well said!
Well said!
15 July 2001, 12:13 PM
#101
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It's the seat of your pants that tells....
So, SdB - we got to take our Scoobs round the Rye House kart track after we finished karting tonight - I managed to lead off
- all I could hear were howling tyres from other cars behind me (ESPECIALLY the UK300 directly behind me 
) - my S03's - silent....
[This message has been edited by Dave T-S (edited 15 July 2001).]
So, SdB - we got to take our Scoobs round the Rye House kart track after we finished karting tonight - I managed to lead off
- all I could hear were howling tyres from other cars behind me (ESPECIALLY the UK300 directly behind me ) - my S03's - silent....[This message has been edited by Dave T-S (edited 15 July 2001).]
16 July 2001, 02:37 PM
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Good question Jza...
well..
In the snow there are far more complications...
there is no grip on the surface of the snow so a studded rally tyre is designed to find its way down to the hard surface below and cut into it to find grip.
The wider the tyre, the less it is able to cut through the snow (and also to "plow" through the snow).
So, you need a tyre which is narrow enough to cut through the snow, and wide enough to produce as much cornering grip as possible.
It is also interesting to note, that snow tyres are run a HUGELY high pressures to keep the contact patch small, and therefore amplify the weight of the car down in a smal area to find the hard grip underneath.
Cheers
Simon
well..
In the snow there are far more complications...
there is no grip on the surface of the snow so a studded rally tyre is designed to find its way down to the hard surface below and cut into it to find grip.
The wider the tyre, the less it is able to cut through the snow (and also to "plow" through the snow).
So, you need a tyre which is narrow enough to cut through the snow, and wide enough to produce as much cornering grip as possible.
It is also interesting to note, that snow tyres are run a HUGELY high pressures to keep the contact patch small, and therefore amplify the weight of the car down in a smal area to find the hard grip underneath.
Cheers
Simon
18 July 2001, 01:57 AM
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I'm not sure who's side of the argument this helps but here's my 2p's worth .
I was in getting a new tyre fitted today ( GY eagle F1 205/50/16 - excellent tyre ) . This is the 4th tyre fitted on this one rim - all victims of potholes . There was a guy getting a puncture repaired on his MPV . When the fitter removed the space saver spare wheel to refit the repaired wheel I noticed in large letters on the space saver 'INFLATE TO 60 PSI' . Even the tyre fitter thought it was unusually high .
Derek
I was in getting a new tyre fitted today ( GY eagle F1 205/50/16 - excellent tyre
) . This is the 4th tyre fitted on this one rim - all victims of potholes . There was a guy getting a puncture repaired on his MPV . When the fitter removed the space saver spare wheel to refit the repaired wheel I noticed in large letters on the space saver 'INFLATE TO 60 PSI' . Even the tyre fitter thought it was unusually high . Derek
18 July 2001, 08:23 AM
#106
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This ties in with SdB's post above. I did mention the space saver back on page one.
Space savers have to run high pressures because of the small contact patch, same as snow tyres.
I would also pick up on one thing in Simon's post above - "snow tyres are run a HUGELY high pressures to keep the contact patch small" - it is actually the other way round - because of the small designed contact patch, snow tyres (and space savers) have to be run at high pressures.
SdB - please note I am not trying to start an argument on this point, it is meant objectively, particularly in view of your comments the other day on the other tyre thread.....
Space savers have to run high pressures because of the small contact patch, same as snow tyres.
I would also pick up on one thing in Simon's post above - "snow tyres are run a HUGELY high pressures to keep the contact patch small" - it is actually the other way round - because of the small designed contact patch, snow tyres (and space savers) have to be run at high pressures.
SdB - please note I am not trying to start an argument on this point, it is meant objectively, particularly in view of your comments the other day on the other tyre thread.....
18 July 2001, 08:27 AM
#107
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And the concept stretches across other areas - my mountain bike only weighs 26lbs (plus the fat git on top of it ), but the tyres run at 55psi because of the tiny contact patch.
), but the tyres run at 55psi because of the tiny contact patch.
18 July 2001, 08:46 AM
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Dave
I know what you're saying, but you're missing the logic.
It is the combination of the weight on the vehicle and the high pressure which CAUSES the small contact patch.
The tyre is designed to run a small contact patch, so therefore needs to be run at higher pressure.
If you deflated it, the contact patch would increase.
Regards
Simon
I know what you're saying, but you're missing the logic.
It is the combination of the weight on the vehicle and the high pressure which CAUSES the small contact patch.
The tyre is designed to run a small contact patch, so therefore needs to be run at higher pressure.
If you deflated it, the contact patch would increase.
Regards
Simon
18 July 2001, 09:37 AM
#109
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Hmmm...I think paras two and three seem to contradict each other.
I'm going to conduct some experiments on this. Won't have time to do it until the weekend, BRB after.
I'm going to conduct some experiments on this. Won't have time to do it until the weekend, BRB after.
18 July 2001, 10:07 AM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Simon de Banke:
<B>Good question Jza...
well..
In the snow there are far more complications...
there is no grip on the surface of the snow so a studded rally tyre is designed to find its way down to the hard surface below and cut into it to find grip.
The wider the tyre, the less it is able to cut through the snow (and also to "plow" through the snow).
So, you need a tyre which is narrow enough to cut through the snow, and wide enough to produce as much cornering grip as possible.
It is also interesting to note, that snow tyres are run a HUGELY high pressures to keep the contact patch small, and therefore amplify the weight of the car down in a smal area to find the hard grip underneath.
Cheers
Simon[/quote]
Cheers Simon - that makes sense. I always thought it was because the mud would clog up under the arches!!!
Jza
<B>Good question Jza...
well..
In the snow there are far more complications...
there is no grip on the surface of the snow so a studded rally tyre is designed to find its way down to the hard surface below and cut into it to find grip.
The wider the tyre, the less it is able to cut through the snow (and also to "plow" through the snow).
So, you need a tyre which is narrow enough to cut through the snow, and wide enough to produce as much cornering grip as possible.
It is also interesting to note, that snow tyres are run a HUGELY high pressures to keep the contact patch small, and therefore amplify the weight of the car down in a smal area to find the hard grip underneath.
Cheers
Simon[/quote]
Cheers Simon - that makes sense. I always thought it was because the mud would clog up under the arches!!!
Jza
18 July 2001, 02:15 PM
#111
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no probs jza
dave, they don't contradict each other.
The tyre is designed to have a small contact patch so it is designed in construction to be efficient whilst in that form.
If you were to lower the pressures you would increase the size of the contact patch which would also deform the tyre from it's intended shape.
Dave.
You still haven't commented on all the hard evidence we have now supporting what I said and contradicting the arguments you put up.
Do you still believe I was talking out of my bum?
Cheers
Simon
dave, they don't contradict each other.
The tyre is designed to have a small contact patch so it is designed in construction to be efficient whilst in that form.
If you were to lower the pressures you would increase the size of the contact patch which would also deform the tyre from it's intended shape.
Dave.
You still haven't commented on all the hard evidence we have now supporting what I said and contradicting the arguments you put up.
Do you still believe I was talking out of my bum?
Cheers
Simon
18 July 2001, 02:34 PM
#112
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Simon de Banke:
You still haven't commented on all the hard evidence we have now supporting what I said and contradicting the arguments you put up.
Do you still believe I was talking out of my bum?
Cheers
Simon[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1) Not talking out of your bum any more that usual...JOKE!!!
Seriously, I never said you were - just a good old fashioned disagreement!
I agree with some of what you say, and not other bits. It would be boring if I agreed with everything you said or vice versa! - call me what you like mate but ar5elicker ain't a description for me
I am still waiting for replies from third parties, and as I said above I want to conduct some research over the weekend.
Be in touch......
You still haven't commented on all the hard evidence we have now supporting what I said and contradicting the arguments you put up.
Do you still believe I was talking out of my bum?
Cheers
Simon[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1) Not talking out of your bum any more that usual...JOKE!!!
Seriously, I never said you were - just a good old fashioned disagreement!
I agree with some of what you say, and not other bits. It would be boring if I agreed with everything you said or vice versa! - call me what you like mate but ar5elicker ain't a description for me
I am still waiting for replies from third parties, and as I said above I want to conduct some research over the weekend.
Be in touch......
18 July 2001, 02:56 PM
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Drifting back to the original thread......
Is it true that the S03's arent meant as a replacement for S02's and that S04's will be released as replacements for the S02's.
If so, anyone know when (ive got 7k left in my RE011's and dont want to buy S02's if they are to be replaced!!)?
Cheers
Jza
Is it true that the S03's arent meant as a replacement for S02's and that S04's will be released as replacements for the S02's.
If so, anyone know when (ive got 7k left in my RE011's and dont want to buy S02's if they are to be replaced!!)?
Cheers
Jza
18 July 2001, 04:38 PM
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Dave
It has nothing to do with **** licking. I really don't know where you get that from.
when I post as Simon de Banke.. I am posting as a scoobynetter, not as a webmaster. And even if I was, it was nothing to do with that.
I am just really intrigued.
Cheers
Simon
It has nothing to do with **** licking. I really don't know where you get that from.
when I post as Simon de Banke.. I am posting as a scoobynetter, not as a webmaster. And even if I was, it was nothing to do with that.
I am just really intrigued.
Cheers
Simon
18 July 2001, 05:21 PM
#115
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Simon
Oh dear....
I apologise...
It was a JOKE, pulling your leg, nothing else and supposed to be self deprecating against myself, not criticising you.....I thought we knew each other better than that and you knew my warped sense of humour
That's three strikes i've had this week...
Oh dear....
I apologise...
It was a JOKE, pulling your leg, nothing else and supposed to be self deprecating against myself, not criticising you.....I thought we knew each other better than that and you knew my warped sense of humour
That's three strikes i've had this week...
20 July 2001, 03:58 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jza:
<B>Drifting back to the original thread......
Is it true that the S03's arent meant as a replacement for S02's and that S04's will be released as replacements for the S02's.
If so, anyone know when (ive got 7k left in my RE011's and dont want to buy S02's if they are to be replaced!!)?
Cheers
Jza[/quote]
Interesting point Jza - any ideas anyone??
Jza
<B>Drifting back to the original thread......
Is it true that the S03's arent meant as a replacement for S02's and that S04's will be released as replacements for the S02's.
If so, anyone know when (ive got 7k left in my RE011's and dont want to buy S02's if they are to be replaced!!)?
Cheers
Jza[/quote]
Interesting point Jza - any ideas anyone??
Jza
20 July 2001, 07:38 PM
#118
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I don't have the answer but I had a look at the Bridgestone Europe website and they only have the S03 listed in their product range. No mention of the S02 anymore, so I'm guessing it's discontinued, and since there is no S04 listed it looks to me like the S03 is its replacement.
Maybe someone else has better information that my complete guesswork though...
Maybe someone else has better information that my complete guesswork though...
31 July 2001, 07:30 PM
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When I spoke to the technical dept at Bridgestone a number of weeks ago (as mentioned in earlier June S-03 threads) it was definitely a case of the S-03 replacing the S-02. The guy said that with the usual pattern of stock replacement there wouldn't be any S-02s around towards the end of this year.
A comment on this thread that I hadn't heard before was about the Eagle F1 being a bit crap on the limit. I don't find the S-02s easy to slide, but they certainly don't bite you when you exceed the limit.
S-03s are now known to be a bit naff, Toyo's are known to be pants in the wet (at least a couple of people think this, and that's enough for me) and S-02s wear very quickly on the shoulders making the tyre illegal well within 10,000 miles if you drive hard. So what should we fit?!
I have to replace my 4th set of S-02s in the next week or so and I was planning on the F1s, but now maybe I'll just stick with the fast wearing S-02s, again.
Any further comments on the Eagle F1s when you explore the limits would also be helpful.
A comment on this thread that I hadn't heard before was about the Eagle F1 being a bit crap on the limit. I don't find the S-02s easy to slide, but they certainly don't bite you when you exceed the limit.
S-03s are now known to be a bit naff, Toyo's are known to be pants in the wet (at least a couple of people think this, and that's enough for me) and S-02s wear very quickly on the shoulders making the tyre illegal well within 10,000 miles if you drive hard. So what should we fit?!
I have to replace my 4th set of S-02s in the next week or so and I was planning on the F1s, but now maybe I'll just stick with the fast wearing S-02s, again.
Any further comments on the Eagle F1s when you explore the limits would also be helpful.
31 July 2001, 09:57 PM
#120
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by strong:
<B>The guy said that with the usual pattern of stock replacement there wouldn't be any S-02s around towards the end of this year.
[/quote]
I'm getting a set of S-02s fitted this weekend. What should I do if I get a puncture and can't get an identical replacement?
What are the consequences of having different makes or types of tyre front and back? Replacing all four for a single puncture sounds expensive
Andy.
<B>The guy said that with the usual pattern of stock replacement there wouldn't be any S-02s around towards the end of this year.
[/quote]
I'm getting a set of S-02s fitted this weekend. What should I do if I get a puncture and can't get an identical replacement?
What are the consequences of having different makes or types of tyre front and back? Replacing all four for a single puncture sounds expensive
Andy.