Jasoon

why the poor 0-60 time?

MikeWood

It was WET

If anybody does not believe the figures I recorded I am quite happy to e-mail them the files from our Micro Sat test (GPS Datron equipment)

Also remember that the WR1 has beeen developed as a nice ROAD car and does not have road legal race tyres fitted so it's got loads of grip on a flat race circuit.

Mike

Nick

Mike, was it wet for the WR1 & dry for the others?

Your last paragraph doesn't make too much sense, have you missed out a word there? No race tyres, so it's got loads of grip on a race circuit?

Shirley not?

MikeWood

Nick

Not sure about the others, but it was wet when the WR1 figures were done by EVO.

A comma after 'fitted' would make my statement read that the WR1 has loads of grip on a race circuit without road legal race tyres. Without the comma, it reads differently as in: cars with race legal road tyres have lots of grip on a race circuit.

The tyres fitted to the WR1 are less able to cope with circuit use than other specialised tyres and in fact will get destroyed very quickly if the car is sliding around too much. But the WR1 has not been engineered to be quick around a race circuit, particularly with tyres that have had thye edges ripped off.....

Mike

Jasoon

just read the article and it dose say it was damp for the timing runs on the WR1

Nick

I appreciate your reply Mike

I'm trying to place an order for a WR1, so I have a serious interest. Can you confirm whether the WR1 is quicker than an STi type UK PPP please?

I'd also be grateful if you could explain how the DCCD works & when it would be used on the road.

Regards
Nick

p1doc

you buy the t25 because it is the dog's danglies of subarus and is more liveable than spec c,my remapped sti has no flat spots? i wonder why that is-in all seriousness i found the ppp very jerky due to flat spots compared to remap
martin

johnfelstead

Does the article give specific suspension setup information for each car, such as camber, toe and caster used?

If it doesnt then you cant draw too many conclusions from the circuit times. Setting the car up for a fast track setup is going to find you lots of time, but would be a disaster on the road killing your tyres in a few thousand miles.

The WR1 should be a lot slower in the upper gears than the Type25 because the Type25 has a mass of torque there, thats a no brainer, but if they are doing the performance testing in varying conditions its a complete waste of time, they would be better off cancelling and going back another day.

Unless these type of articles are precise in their testing, including all suspension and tyre settings being listed, you cant read that much into them. You are always best off driving the cars yourself in the specification you will be running it, and seeing how that fares.

Nick

John, there's no suspension info at all. The only thing they mention is that the WR1 was running on 18" wheels shod with 225/40 Pirelli P-Zero road tyres, against others with 17" & Bridgestone RE070 semi-track tyres. They say that the track was damp for the WR1 test.

The Shrink

As a noob, can I just ask what the point of a manufacturer publishing non repeatable figures are?

The wR1 may have produced those figures "on the day", but if it can't be consistently repeated, it's not really valid claiming them is it?

You may as well say, "it may do 0-100 in 10.7 secs once in a while, but in reality 12-13 is more likely"

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

The way i see it, even in damp conditions, the WR1 should be getting close to its 0-100 times due to traction, the fact its still 3 seconds off......

Tony

andykidman

when does this copy of evo come out in the shops then????

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Nick, John Felstead is probably the best person for this but ill give it a go
The power is split 66r 33f, the DCCD controls the power by changing it upto a 50/50 split (on lock which is not recommended btw), the downside to the WR1 is that they say it has front AND rear Suretrac diffs, the JDM cars have front suretrac, rear mechanical diff, this gives the JDM cars an advantage (thus the reason they remove it when you go for the A-DCCD option on the GL).
Unfortunately the WR1 is still a compromise, it will still be the best uk impreza available to date but lags behind its JDM stablemates as it doesnt get all the goodies
BUT if it drives anything like my Spec C (if not quite as quick) it should be pretty good on the road

Tony

Nick

Thanks for your reply Tony.

When would you use the DCCD on the road. Does changing the DCCD settings mean that the AWD stops working as it usually does?

Beastie

iTrader: (2)

Has the T25 got ABS?

Daz34

Yes

BigWig

Nick,

Regarding the DCCD, The following site seems to provide a reasonable explanation on its operation (be it on a USDM motor). http://ca.autos.yahoo.com/031210/11/vvhd.html

I'm sure JF or GM can correct any inaccuracies. ;-)

dc911

Can anybody state whether all cars were actually tested on the same day? Im sure i heard that the track at road testing was done together but am unsure of the speed timings but would have thought that would have been done on the same day aswell?
Darren

ARRON BIRD

When will you lot give it a rest????
Same old same old.
My car is better than yours cos this and that
Look the Jap spec cars are a few years ahead of anything that we produce in this country ok.
You pays your money you take your choice.
If you lot actually base your next car purchase on what you read in a magazine then thats pretty sad.
Get out and drive the cars and see which you believe to be the one to have.
I will sumarise for you ok.
And I think anyone who has driven these cars will agree.
I would place the T25 first in performance terms alone but as it has a 2.5 engine in it its hardly worth pitting it against 2 litre cars now is it????
The Spec c I drove was a very nice package around the track.....I repeat around the track. Didnt drive it on the road which is where most of you guys will be anyway so cant comment on its day to day ride. I would say it will be a lot harder to live with that a Spec C but maybe not the T25 as I know Iain has spent a lot of time and money fine tuning its suspension.
I wouldnt think unless you have the car fitted with adjustable shocks it will ride any better than the WR1.
Now the long awaited WR1.
Well I havnt driven one of those either....yet.....but I would expect the suspension to be very similar to my STI with the only main difference being that lovely diff that lets not forget all the cars have.
The difference between twin scroll motors and normal headers will be sound to most of you I dont think you will notice any real World performance difference.
The P1 we`ll forget about as I had one of those so wont even start.
The best Impreza ever......well I wouldnt even use Evo as toilet paper if they honestly believe that to be tru.
It was no more than a standard STI5/6 without all the toys at a ridiculous cost and was hyped up to be something that to me it clearly wasnt.
But fair play to subaru for dangling the big oily worm and letting me and anothet 999 people get sucked in by it.
When I have driven the WR1 I`ll let you know what I think of it.
Would have been better to put the same tyres on all the cars as a starting point tho eh.
If you look in the bike mags at least they have the gumption to do that!!!!

greasemonkey

No. The car is always full-time four wheel drive. The centre diff on a DCCD car has, as has been mentioned above, a 66:33 rearward torque bias, giving the car a handling balance more akin to an RWD car, at least when the centre diff is fully open.

The electromagnetic clutch in the DCCD acts by progressively locking the centre differential, in effect counteracting the rearward torque split and promoting greater power transfer to the front, up to the point where it is fully locked, and you effectively get a solid driveshaft between the front and rear diffs.

Note that while this results in a 50:50 theoretical power split between front and rear, it is not the same setup as you'd experience in a viscous centre diff equipped car, where the power split is achieved by the differential itself, and there's no way the diff can actually lock.

Tightening/locking the centre differential has advantages for traction on loose or uneven surfaces, as well as greater stability under braking.
So, if it's an advantage, you think, why aren't all Subarus shipped with solid or nearly locked centre diffs? The downside of running like this is that the car can understeer badly in tighter corners.

The "A" part of DCCD-A means the electromagnetic clutch has an automatic programme, which is mapped to car speed, steering wheel position, braking force and so-on, all in addition to having the manually controlled thumbwheel. The automatic programme should (if it's mapped properly) give you all the advantages of the (near)locked centre diff when accelerating and braking, but without the risk of the car pushing on when turning.

In answer to your (Nick's) point above, I would have thought that, if Subaru have done their job properly, far from the ABS stopping working, the DCCD-A programme will work with it. The locked diff effectively acts as an additional form of brake force distribution, which helps the retardation.

Rasher

When will you lot give it a rest????
Same old same old.
My car is better than yours cos this and that


have to agree with you, there will always be something better just around the corner.

greasemonkey

Because many clueless idiots are obsessed with these sorts of figures (as this thread proves), and thus manufacturers feel obliged to quote them.

Of course they can be repeated, it just depends how much you want to risk the health of the engine, clutch and gearbox to do it. You can't, though, expect the car to get close to claimed acceleration figures if, as has been said in this case, that EVO's WR1 test was conducted in the wet...

As all published acceleration figures tend to be produced with the car being driven in a similarly unsympathetic manner, they should be nominally consistent from car to car and manufacturer to manufacturer, and thus, for those who are bothered about such things, they should provide some sort of indication of the car's straight line accelerative capabilities.

All well and good, but if they quoted "real world" figures while the rest of the motor industry quoted the "unrealistic" ones, their products would have a perceived disadvantage among the clueless great unwashed, wouldn't they?

terryb

All the tests (track and road) were carried out on the same day (dry track/ roads) with the exception of the WR1 performance times (this was done on the following day I believe - I wasn't there that day so can't comment on the state of the track - but EVO states it was damp)

Nick

Thanks for the answers - I now understand DCCD a little better!

Some other guys seem to be annoyed by questions about the WR1. Sorry guys, in future I'll prefix any post I make about the WR1 with "WR1" - then you can ignore it & not get annoyed with the world.

The reason for all the questions is that most people with the car on order or who are trying to place an order, have not been able to drive the car. Our only info then is from mags like Evo & their figures & driving impressions are the only things to go on. I'm definately not concentrating on performance figures & much prefer a car's drivability.

scoobynutta555

Good to see that the P1 holds its head in such company. Compared to Subarus latest and greatest efforts. All with only a 2 litre engine pushing out 276 bhp.

Not bad considering a few on here think they are crap. Must say Im on my 3rd Subaru now having owned 2 greys (wrx and sti5typeR) totally feel its the car that suits my needs, esp after the Blitz nur spec and de cat and 6 pot brakes , but them ive modded the 2 imports similarily.

Im not tempted in the slightest to chop it in for anything else in the Subaru range. Esp looking at the performance figs quoted earlier of the WR1, how gutting for the new owners

And of course, the P1 is the best looking Impreza after a 22b.

chrisp

They will shift 500 units no problem

Chip

Exactly. Still its an age old argument. Just a bit silly and pointless though as 95% of ppl on here will never have to chance or the skills to drive the car to it's absolute limit.

Chip.

mn_angrybeats

As a neutral don't see what the fuss is about from the specs the WR1 does seem to have some optimistic figures banded about, 1470kg kerb weight and 316hp only gives 218bhp/ton hardly huge considering the P1 is 216bhp/ton...

The Spec C and Type 25 both have 247bhp/ton so a considerable difference you'd agree...

The performance times, well the straight line one's anyway do seem to stack up

Why not find the one that suits you

Edcase

Of course they will.

what you have to remember is that we represent the 'hardcore'. We aren't IM's primary target market. Most of us enjoy getting our hands dirty and working with aftermarket components and tuners to squeeze the last piece of performance from the package, which is the bane of IM's life. Joe consumers biggest decision will be a couple of grand on PPP or some Prodrive alloys.

Although sizeable and important (hence the presence of the likes of Mike Wood), Scoobynet does not represent the 'massmarket'. You aren't going to see WR1 vs Spec C vs T25 in the Sunday Times car review, or on 5th gear. And even if you did, joe consumer see's buying from Subaru (compared with, say, BMW or Honda) as an 'out there', leftfield buying decision anyway, so there is no way they are going to spend £34k with someone like Iain, regardless of the package.

Equally, Iain's target market isn't Joe consumer (yet ) it's the likes of us. A mix of people that are passionate about a marque and want the best possible package; people who are passionate about driving but can't afford a GT3, or need practicality as well; people who have a significant disposable income and want a second, third or fourth car that's a bit different, a bit out of the ordinary...

You don't need a magazine review to tell you that the WR1 is going to be slower than the T25 or Spec C, or faster than a P1 surely? But if that is your buying criteria then why are you even bothered about the WR1? It goes without saying that, to get the very best of something you go to source. Japan is always going to get the best of anything Subaru first, so if you are happy buying imports, then that's what you do! IM and Prodrive have the kind of commercial and operational considerations that quite simply prevent them from being able to offer the same kind of packages at this stage. They have EU restrictions, dealer networks, R&D, distribution, warranties...the list goes on.

It's as simple as this. If you want the best performing Uk car, with warranty and exclusivity, then buy the WR1.

If you want absolute performance (and even greater exclusivity) and are happy buying outside the dealer network, then buy an import.

A more interesting an realistic comparison will be the WR1 against a UK spec Evo VIII, but even then for most UK joe consumers, an Evo is just that little too far left of centre...

Adam M

Does no one else think that evo know how to run as fairer test as possible?

I always thought that they were so pro P1 because they were in prodrive's or IM's pockets, regular advertising counts for a lot.

My faith in evo is a little restored now that they have shown they are willing to admit the WR1 might not be the best thing ever.

I do agree that in gear times are not so important and should be ignored. Is a little odd how far out the manufacturers claims are, but remember that the standard is pretty much two up with a half filled petrol tank.

I see Mike Wood immediately on the defensive saying the car was made for the road. Having spoken with iain litchfield, I get the impression that the type 25 was developed with this in mind, otherwise they probably would have started with a spec c on which to biuld the type 25, but it appears that the creature comforts were a top concern.

I think congratulations are in order for a small company like Litchfiled Imports to create a model that can show an established and very successful company like prodrive how to spec a model of car and price it accordingly.

Arron is right, you should all drive it for yourself, but I don't believe for one second that all the people involved in the lap times performance testing and the road testing were all blind to the abilities of the cars and the purposes for which they are designed. They chose their favourite on this basis, so why is it wrong. Mike Wood said the car was designed for the road, but there was a road test element in the article which I have downstairs, so why didnt it come out on top in that department?

Evo admitted the damp conditions, but certainly not wet. And it wasn't damp when the more important lap times were recorded. The margin is enormous regardless.

Prodrive seem to be pulling out every excuse. Wet weather, wrong conditions for the car, racing tires on the competition. If that is the case then why are they standard fit on the nsx type r which is a road car too? We will see over time if people complain about problems with the tires on the road, but I suspectg this is just sour grapes.

And as for john felsteads view on comparing geometry set ups, I am sorry but that is just nonsense. The cars were supplied to the test with the knowledge of what they were intended for. The settings are the preferred settings of the car as they are intended to be sold. Everyone has their own settings which they prefer, but most buyers will leave it as the manufacturer intended.

When you test drive a car with a view to buying it, you dont have them set it up according to your preference in advance, you drive it as it is sold to you and rate it accordingly.

You should always take road tests with a pinch of salt, they should be there to narrow down choices, but not to make them for you. I would still have to drive the cars personally to make up my mind but in this case there does appear to be a resounding victory.

The way I see it is that these guys have driven a lot of cars and can detect the subtle differences between them. Their opinion isn't gospel, but its a good guide, from which to make the final decision yourself. I just take it as a strong argument towards the type 25 from people whose opinion carries more weight than the man on the street. This is emphasised further by the strength of the victory. Remember, all cars got 5 stars with the exception of the WR1.

Prodrive will sell 500 with ease, this is fine so long as those buying are aware of the competition and choose the WR1 because it is their favourite, not because prodrive make it so it must be good.

I wish such worthy alternatives were prominently advertised, easily available and warrantied when the P1 was originally on sale.