milo

does the person who decides which product sectors to go into and what technologies to use need to have experience of hiring people, doing performance appraisals and delegating tasks? they're determining strategy. they SHOULDNT have to have been a manager.

milo

thats really the point ive been trying to make.

when you hear people say "IT is a good career move and there's plenty of opportunities", YOU take that to mean "a job that can earn you sums above the average wage quickly". other people may expect a LOT more and be disappointed with just "above the average wage"... and find that for even a lot of good people, that's the ceiling.

ProperCharlie

the person needs *management skills*. if you see management in the narrow terms of doing appraisals, getting their cup of tea made etc then fair enough. i meant management in the wider sense of being able to manage people, time, resources, etc. prioritise, analyse and all the otehr things that decision makers should do. i would agrue that someone with "management" experience would be more likely to have these skills than someone without.

milo

but anyone in any job needs to be able to do those effectively.

maybe you are looking at a broader sense of management than i am in that case (in my view you're almost saying EVERYONE is a manager). im looking at specifically the difference between someone in a traditional "management" role to someone in any other role. in other words, the manager hires and fires etc etc. EVERYONE prioritises, analyses etc.

ProperCharlie

everyone analyses? maybe, but only on a fairly basic level. if you are working on an IT project, you have to think in terms of that project. if you are running a muti-layered organisation, you have to think in a much broader way. what works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other.

what i am saying is that there is a difference between someone who turns up for work, gets told to do stuff, does it as best he can and then goes home, to someone who goes to work and creates the agenda.

milo

true - but in that case, 90% of the people with "manager" in their job title fall into the former category. they are NOT creating an agenda.. they are merely doing stuff they are told to do by the next guy higher up.

mj

..you IT types, you're just sooooo confrontational


ok, I'll put it another way - the website she has created - would you lot say she has a flair for computers that's worth persuing? - I don't know what the *average* 12 yr old is like with PC's, I knows kids are better with than now than we ever were, simply beacause everyone's got one.

This might be an unanswerable question on SN, as most of the replies will be from people in IT - so by virtue of that fact I imagine their kids have always been around computers, i.e. more inclined to take an interest..

I got a "U" in my IT GCSE, until 4 years ago I DESPISED computers, then one day I got plonked in front of one at work and have been into then ever since....


..so back to my daughter - I would say she is pretty average academically, just a normal kid with regard to everyday situations,meeting people etc...... maybe verging a bit on the shy side, but I'm glad in that respect, I hate loud/chavvy kids

I personnally think, though I may be biased she is above average with PC's for her age, she has this guild thing on Neopets she has created ( I think its like scoobynet for kids, though with a better for sale section ), she installs her own games&drivers etc at home, and has sussed out how to reset the broadband router when it goes belly up.




...so Dreamwaver is the weapon of choice then?....would she not be better with something newbie friendly like Frontpage for starters?

MooseRacer

Of course it's worth encouraging. She's a 12yr old kid though so just let her enjoy it.


If she ends up making a career for herself with it then good for her. She'll more than likely do well despite what milo would have you believe.

NotoriousREV

Clearly I've wasted my life, after all this time it's only now I realise I should have been aiming to be CEO of a major corporation. Dammit. Is it too late to make up for lost time?

And here's me looking for ways to earn a good wage with as little actual work or stress involved as possible.

*Wanders off to refocus his life*

milo

i didnt say she wouldn't do well (read my initial post). it just depends where she has her sights set. why don't you define "do well" to give some kind of indication what that clearly subjective statement means?

milo

you're TOTALLY missing the point. in fact, you've proven my point.

if that's what you're happy with... FINE. i'm merely stating that a lot of people aren't just happy with that and have their sites set a LOT higher. for you, "a good wage with as little actual work" is presumably absolute utopia, so you will say "get into IT as you can do that". for LOTS of people, that situation would be hell, as they have their sites set a lot higher. by people on here saying "IT is awesome" without stating what goals it allows them to achieve... is a TOTALLY subjective statement.

going up the ladders in IT is harder... fact... because you have to jump thru more hoops BECAUSE it's harder to prove your actual worth to a company. if you're a salesman and make a company £1m in a year in sales.. the company knows your worth. if you're in IT and you work as part of a team to implement a system which is supposed to save the company money long-term... it's MUCH harder (not impossible) to define your real worth (and it's much less visible), and therefore harder to progress. it's the reality of IT.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Point her in the direction of games development, now the hardware has come of age (DirectX9, PS2, Xbox) and there is a new generation of hardware less than two years away if she is creative thats the way to go, as the hardware can process more detail it takes more people to create that detail, artists etc, Would be more fun than web development or like me spending all day trying to persuade Oracle databases to stay up, without a doubt Oracle is the most complicated peice of software ever written and it hurts my head, web development, easy, why a 12 year old could do it !

I am fairly happy with my lot at the mo working for the Police, could probably earn more elsewhere now I am qualified but I quite like the Flexitime, Pension and the short working week, 37 1/4 hours, anything above that gets accrued as flexi and can be taken in the form of a day off every four weeks, so thats 13 extra days + 29 days leave anyway, plus 8 bank holidays = 50 days off a year, cool eh, in fact I am off today on a flexi day.

FrenchBoy

I think milo has a preety valid point, unfortunately we are very under appreciated in IT. When things go well its just us doing our job and its what everyone expects of us, when things go wrong ( as they so often do - through no fault of our own ) we get the blame despite how well/efficiently/quickly we deal with any crisis.

its also quite hard to quantify just how much money a company saves by having a well run IT dept. Most people just see IT as a spending machine that doesn't produce any tangible revenue.

people also tend to resent the fact that when we do our jobs well ( particularly from a systems admin aspect ) we appear to be doing sod all. and we never look 'busy enough'.

but enough moaning, i drive a wrx03ppp as my company car so it cant all be bad.

MooseRacer

What a fantastic, typically IT techie example that is.

Tell me, what sort of 'reward' would you expect to be given to a technically skilled team player? Finance Director, or Chairman of the Board maybe?



FACT is IT is a good career for the 99% of the population who don't have, and will never have, the skills, drive or desire to progress above middle to upper management.

If, on the other hand, someone is a captain of tomorrow's industry in waiting - what are they doing in a techincal role in the first place?

milo

like ive already said - chief information officer, with a view to becoming ceo. fact is, cio generally dont sit on the board. which sucks. in fact, in most companies the role (or ANYTHING similar) doesnt exist.


your 99% figure is WAY off imo. even if it was spot-on, of those 99%, MANY are capable, but just aren't given the opportunity ESPECIALLY in IT.

like you've said yourself - the vast majority of people who "aren't capable of going all the way" are determining the future progression of ALL staff that start off in a company. there are PLENTY of excellent people overlooked due to the lack of ability of middle management to see the future captains of industry. true in most industries granted, but ESPECIALLY true in IT.

IT IS harder to progress in, for the reasons i stated in my previous post regarding calculating your worth to a company.

just because you personally dont have the desire to do more than a 9-5 job in middle management and go home at night (not a dig at you - that's fine if thats what u want)... dont confuse your preferences and desires with everyone's.


two words - bill gates.

MooseRacer

Hmm, it was a guess, but I shouldn't think it's that far off. Take the whole UK workforce I would imagine the percentage of them above the level of management is very small.


I kind of agree, it was mentioned earlier that IT peeps are often put in management positions for no good reason. However, I maintain, and am proof of the fact that a good person will be noticed and rewarded - even if it isn't by their own manager.


It is easy to progress to a certain level within IT. You believe that it is more difficult to progress above that from within IT. I disagree 100%. Get to that middle/upper management level and if you're good, you'll progress. Not on the back of IT skills alone, but using the spread of skills anyone would need for that level of responsibilty.


A bit of assumption there.




Who started his own company, hardly relevant is it?

TopBanana

MooseRacer's got it. If you want to do really well in IT, you need to start your own company, like Mr Gates. Why bust a gut to sit on the board of a medium to large organisation when you can make yourself a success instead?

GaryK

some good points raised here me thinks, the one thing that tees me off is the general perception of IT that for the last few years its been a way to make a 'quick-buck' and that those outside of the industry think they can walk straight into a well paid job. Just because there is no 'formal' appenticeship doesnt mean you can skip rungs of the ladder.

With the advent of PCs and cheap software its been a double edged sword, on the one hand lowering barrier to entry is great for everyone and stimulates creativity but on the other it attracts any tom dick and harry to hash up something then call themselves an IT expert which I believe is one of several factors which has led to its decline, with competition continually driving down costs.

As for the business route, make no mistake Bill Gates is sharp, you dont get to where he is by being anything but, however 1) he was connected - IBM had a rep. that sat on the board of governors at the school where Gates' mother worked which was how he got the initial introduction and 2) the timing could not have been better. 1983 was the birth of the PC and micro$oft rode the crest of the wave, sure they could have f**ked it but he also had a talented guy by the name of Paul allen who did the early development work on M$ compilers and the QDOS to MSDOS conversion work.

I am not trying to discourage anyone from IT you just need a reality check, you can still make a good career from it but you need to put the time in, you wouldnt fix a leak in your bathroom then call yourself a plumber would you?!?!?!?

Gary

milo

i WISH you were correct. maybe in the better companies you are. all else i think you're living in utopia. managers will OFTEN pass off someone else's work as their own however, and they'll be the ones to get noticed.


tell me i'm wrong and mean it, and i'll apologise for assuming



you asked me for a technical person who is a captain of industry.

if you're asking me to provide you with a list of technical people who have progressed through a company to the top, you're asking me to disprove my point - that there are no paths to the top from a technical role. which sucks and should NOT be the case.

FrenchBoy

milo you sound like a bitter man thats had the misfortune to work with some appaling managers!!!

(i mean bitter in a nice way of course!)

milo

pmsl... is it THAT obvious?!

i have been cursed with some horrible ones. the most recent of which i developed a system that allowed the company to get into a marketplace worth millions. its already generated a high 7 figure revenue stream and is growing rapidly. i also reduced outsourcing costs by a 6 figure sum by developing a large system in-house that was planned on to outsourced, completely off my own initiative and MUCH faster than the outsourcing company were estimating. the manager COMPLETELY got in the way, questioning everything and micro-mis-managing. i even took to calling in sick so that i could work on this from home, as i got 2-3 times more work done when the chump wasn't around to "manage" me.

needless to say, he took full credit for all of the work. he now has a "vice president" job title and a 6 figure salary. i am still at the same desk and some other chump will be put in place as my manager who will no doubt do the same.

ive had 3 managers at other companies, all of whom display HUGE levels of incompetencies in various ways, from micro-management to generally holding you back.

so yes - take what i say with a pinch of bitter salt. but from what i hear from MOST other technical staff... this is a reality of the IT industry.

you're DAMN lucky and in an f'n good job if things work differently for you and you're in IT.

GaryK

milo,

I can understand where you're coming from and really you are emphasising what Ive always believed; A manager/project manager is only as good as the staff beneath him. I got brought in to work on a large project that was over schedule and over budget and was close to being canned, myself and another guy pulled it round and sorted it, the manager didnt get too involved and the job got done. Was I bitter nah, I was contracting and had named my hourly rate which was pretty high at the time.

As stated in another post though I wouldnt necessarily say that this is specific to IT. What I would say is if you arent getting the recognition you deserve then I think you are working for the wrong company, not the wrong manager!

Cheers

Gary

FrenchBoy

Milo,

I'm genuinely sorry to hear that mate! theres nothing worse than seeing some chump walk away with the credit for your hard work/initiative/intelligence!!

have you voiced these concerns to anyone of note in your company?

milo

nope, for two main reasons - one that nobody of note is approachable (chump is pretty much as high a person that is approachable.. and i can hardly go to him and complain! anyone higher than him wouldnt even know who i am, let alone care). and also, ive seen people in similar situations be accused of "undermining authority" when complaining. the only ONE time ive EVER seen a manager get fired when his staff complained was when the company wanted rid of him anyway, so used this as an excuse.

milo

i think ive been working for both the wrong company AND the wrong manager (im permanent btw).

which is why im getting something else lined up and taking my time, rejecting offers from companies that might put me in the same situation again.

TopBanana

milo - go contracting. Earn loads of money and laugh and the permie power struggles.

Either that or get a petition together

FrenchBoy

Got to agree with Gary then, maybe this isn't the company for you.
This is starting to sound like the 'Who actually likes their job?' thread isn't it?

SteveLegacyToo

I worked for a small software house here in Oxfordshire, and we used to sub out development work to the Ukraine. I've worked in Mechanical Engineering before that, and most oil companies ship in Design/FE staff from Russia.
Most what I would call 'Office' based jobs can now pretty much be dome from anywhere in the world, so security in most careers is pretty poor.

The world has gone full circle (Well, almost), the only way I can see you can be sure of earning a living as long as possible are:

i) Get a domestic trade (Plumbing, sparks, plasterer) and be damned good (ie Technically half decent and more importantly be Reliable)
ii) Work for yourself.

Big companies are heartless, soulless scum, and small companies are dependant on one or two at the top, and if one leaves, you're potentially stuck.

SteveG
(Hoping to start an NVQ in catering after a MechEng degree & 5years experience, and 5 years experience in Software development and management)

milo

i am planning to eventually.

there are two issues tho:
* i cant afford to be out of work even short-term as i have commitments
* contracting pay isnt THAT much more than what im getting now (or have been offered in other perm jobs). okay, so its a bit more... but not enough to warrant the stress and uncertainty, and having to pay for my own pension, life assurance, etc etc. i PROBABLY need to do more research here tho.

but yes - my plan is to go contracting within the next 3 years.

GaryK

milo,

Dont wait, take the bull by the horns and do it now! Ok to address your issues; first get a six month contract, that will enable you to sort everything out and put some cash behind you. IMHO six monthers normally run longer anyway, the fact that a company can afford a contractor that long means money is rarely an issue, especially if your working for a major bank or blue chip company. Three months just flies by and doesnt give you time to get things sorted.

Rates wise, when I last looked some time ago I did see they have dropped somewhat, really depends on your skillset, your income should be at least comparable and there are tax benefits too. Personally I always liked the flexibility of contracting, taking weeks at a time off if you wanted to, working in different environments/industries and learning lots from other developers. Personally I think the glory days in contracting are gone but thats not to say it wont come full circle. As for insurance, nah fvck it who needs it

I know there's quite a few 'cons' () both current and ex who would be more than happy to answer your ?'s

Gary