Sam Elassar

hi there
the only difference between a uk engine and the sti engine, is the pistons, and cams. they share the same block and crank and rods. forged pistons mean that an sti should be able to run more boost. some stis are run at 1.5 bar. i think it is safe for me to run the car at 19psi (1.35 bar) considering all fueling and ignition has been taken care off. i know that the engine is producing more power but it should be able to withstand as much power as the sti engine if the boost is not very high. i know a lot of poeple get worried on this board about boost pressure, and you get poeple saying that it is safe to run 17.4 psi or something but not 18!!!!! how did they figure that out is beyond me. and at the end of the day 19 psi is not really silly boost.

i am in the middle of trying to get the exhaust manifold ported i think i will do it as per bob instructions, and will see if it will make any difference. i will probably do a before and after run to see if there is anything to be gained from this excerise.

sam

Adam M

Sam, I was comparing the uk car to the WRX not the sti, saying that I reckon it is the same.

I agree reagrding all these silly boost concerns. no one knows which psi is the one that will make the difference.

I know that I am concerned when my car coems on boost as it feels so strong, I just feel like it will break, even with forged pistons.

Forget boost pressure. On power output alone you car is way above sti standards, and they have forged pistons for a reason. I have no idea how much stronger or weaker they are than after market jobbies. You should ask moray to show you his, then perhaps you might see what extracting lots of power tends to do! Ltes just say, one of his pistons could now make a nice bracelet.


Steve, Just because I dont use it, doesnt mean I dont enjoy having it. My m195 (are you certain of your spec) is already making my car seriously rapid thanks to Bob Rawle developments. A downgrade would probably be a good idea, if I want MY license to stay CLEAN. At my age, you have to be repsonsible or you dont get insured. I will save my high speed antics, for the track.

Do you not remember the **** taking I rceived when I drove so slowly I managed to spin?

Sam Elassar

i know what you are talking about adam, i am sure most of people on this thread know the difference between wrx,sti,and UK cars. what i am saying is there is not difference really it is all terminolgy. so if you accept an sti to run 350bhp why wouldn't you accept a uk car to do the same if no silly high boost is used ? that is why i did go the fmic way. it allow me to release more power at the same boost level.
actually this is a question for you. how strong do you think the phase one engine is compared to phase II ? i know that you can extract more poewr from phase II than the phase I.
here is another one, if the wrx and the uk car engine is very similar and so is the sti one to a certain extent. which one will be safer at high revs ? then consider that a uk engine revs 7000rpm while the wrx and sti rev to 8500 ? most blown engines on this board have blown on high revs, revs that a uk car can't actually reach !!!

R19KET

Sam,

Don't forget that the STi's also have metal head gaskets, higher spec' valves, and probably/possibly/maybe, different cam profiles.

I guess the only way we're going to find out just what the engines can take, is for guys like you, Bob, Pat, etc', etc' to keep pushing it.

Mark.

Bob Rawle

Adam, a turbo should be "sized" to an engine spec, if an engine can only take a limited amount of boost then its pointless using a turbo that generates alot more, you need to maximise airflow within the limitations, this has now been done. the turbo is suitable for both uk and Jap spec cars, it simply flows alot of air within its limits, proabbly as much or more boost for boost as your '195, thats what I mean by what I said. If you fit the wroing turbo to an engine (too big or too small) then you will lose out instead of gaining ... biggest is not always best

There is no reason that a UK car can't make big power given the right conditions, if the pistons will only take a limited amount of boost then so be it ... minimise charge temps, maximise timing etc and the power will come from the right engine.

Mark ... push it ???? pot calling kettle methinks .... still you are right, I've "only" done about 75000 miles with my cars now, I'm obviously being too conservative again.

[This message has been edited by Bob Rawle (edited 14 August 2001).]

steve McCulloch

Sam

I'm really disappointed that you are deciding to Port the Headers

The ways things are going there should'nt be much difference at all in your UK car and the sti's! - running 1.35 bar of boost is not going to make that much difference as Bob states - just optimise the ignition advance to get the gains - which it sounds like you've already done........

Will be interesting to see if my standard clutch holds up ok with the 'new' mods...

You doing the porting yourself then - or taking it to Falkland?

steve McCulloch

Bob

Yours is a vf28 Hybrid.? - thought the VF28 at your house last night was just for show - its a real VF28? - I have a spare VF28 thats ready and waiting to be abused.. but like you said we'll see what the results of the latest outings are first!!

Suspect it will be, as ever not fast enough... I need Nitrous............. (now there's a thought for Sam!)

coyote

Once you get fuelling and spark sorted out, the rods seem to be the weakest link as far as componentry is concerned. Pistons fail because other things are not right but we've seen rods bend because they could not handle the load. At this point gearboxes also become a big worry.

R19KET

Sam,

I was just pointing out the other differences.

As you know, I'm all for pushing the limits, that's how we learn about the cars, but in doing so, we also have to accept the consequences, "if" we get it wrong.

To be honest, a blown head gasket was the last thing I was expecting, although, according to Steve Lawson, it's not uncommon.

I was fully expecting my pistons to look very sorry for themselves, given those early days learning how to map the Link, and the latter days running up to 25psi but, they are fine, and could easily be re-used.

Like you say, what we do with our own cars, is not necessarily what we'd recommend other to do.

Mark.

Adam M

Sam,

I think another thing is, that few cars are tuned properly. Like coyote says, you have to sort out fuelling and ignition. If these arent done, then the engines fail due to other faults before the head gaskets limit.

Bob did my map, and as a result I am happy it is a safe map for the components we know the limits of such as pistons etc.

If the engine runs without det and without running lean, it is the rods I am going to be concerned about.

Bob,

re turbos, thanks for the explanation, it makes complete sense. Is there any way of comaparing the two compressor maps of the two turbos side by side? From what you have said, there is a chance that switching to your turbo will yield all pros and no cons.

Your saw how my car was performing spool up wise on the MD195, can you estimate at what point in the rev range it would be possible to get the new turbo to come in?

I will need to retain the md195 for the other engine whatever happens, but the prospect of having a seriouisly rapid road going engine/turbo combination really does appeal to me.

On the note relating to this thread, will porting the headers, as well as improving volumetric efficiency, cause the boost level to rise sooner?



[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 17 August 2001).]

Sam Elassar

steve
at the end of the day every little thing helps, i am thinking along the lines the more power you are producing the mpre gases are there the more things like exhaust manifold and inlet manifolds will help.

i don't have a standard clutch BTW that went out after 10k

me do it myself ? i am not that talented mate when it comes to these things. i am doing it through falkland, they don't know if it will work or not but i have managed to luer them into trying with my car as an experiment

nitros,hmmm

R19KET

Bob,

Pot here......

The problem we have, is that just because one person can successfully run a particular level of boost/power in his car, doesn't mean that every car will have equal success, or longevity.

I have no idea just how much power the standard parts can take, or how much the tolerances may vary, part to part.

So whilst one, or several STi's may get away with running, lets say 1.5bar, or a UK 1.35bar, another may blow a head gasket, or worse

I think it's fair to say, that increasing the boost on our cars by some 35%, is "pushing it". Just how close to the edge, I don't know. I wish I new someone who did.

Mark.

Sam Elassar

hi mark
i know this is not very technical but how many imprezas with blown head gaskets do you know of ? i have asked falkland and they have a lot of subaru engines all over their garage and what they have said is that they had never seen a blown head gasket yet. the reason i know is because i was going to do that next but they did not think it was needed at this boost level. the same as how many failed subaru blocks have you seen ?

i know of some cars superchiped running anything from 22-26psi!!!!!!!!! and they have survived.

i totally agree with you though, i would not recommend that to anyone apart from me. i am totally aware of what could go wrong. and i am already thinking of what i am going to get when my engine goes . the so far knock sensitivity is set for the default link settings and the car is running with no knocks. i know this does not mean anything as obviously i am eating away in the safety margin built into the car, but again the car is built to last 100k !!!!! so maybe mine won't

sam

Sam Elassar

porting the exhuast manifold if done correctly should help spool up the turbo faster thus reducing lag. that is in theory, hopefully i will find out soon in couple of weeks time.

the only thing that is worrying me though, is can the stock lambda sensor be trusted for tuning purposes at this level ?

Bob Rawle

Adam, the two maps don't tell the whole story as you need to overlay the turbine map to get that, for an engine that is going to remain in standard internal trim and run no more than 1.5 bar of boost or so then this turbo is definately going to provide a better overall package, if you are going for out and out high end power, don't mind a bit of lag and are not interested in low end drivebilty (to much) then the Garrett wheeled hybrids are going to do a good job.

Having said that I will still be very keen to see what its like on an engine that will run higher boost safely, once I get the new injectors in a better idea of that will emerge as I may be able to push the envelope a little bit more.

It runs with a P20 exhaust housing and wheel like the '195 so is no less restrictive of exhaust gas flow.

Hi Mark, yup its a real guessing game, some STi's were uprated at the factory depending on what box options were ticked and those will run alot more than the "normal" cars for obvious reasons, I guess its just a question of "inching" things forward. People ask me why they can't have their cars like mine loads of times, the answer is "cos I'm not driving your car" and it really is down to sense checking every little improvement or change as you go before moving on again. Even something simple like an oil catch can makes a difference to the engines ability to run at a level as I'm in the process of finding out. Funny though I've done nearly a thousand miles and its still empty. My oil switch actually stopped most of the breather fumes that used to coat the inside of my intercooler.

Sam, the one thing that we think we know is that UK car internals are pretty much the same car to car for a give MY. Tolerances will make the difference to them, your car is a "good un" and is responding well to treatment, most MY99/00 cars do although there are exceptions.

Sam re lambda sensor, there is no reason to not use the oe sensor in the way that I have explained ... however given where you have taken the car I would suggest that you replace it at this time for the reson that it "may" be getting a little tired and producing a lower output. (it may be ok but its what I would do)

[This message has been edited by Bob Rawle (edited 15 August 2001).]

Sam Elassar

hi there
so for those of you who have done it. is it an engine out job ? how long would it roughly take an experienced garage that never did it before ?

sam

firefox

Depends if you want to port every part of it.

If you are willing to leave the up-pipe alone (which defeats the object) then its quite quick to remove the headers.

Otherwise you have to unbolt it off the turbo (like removing the turbo).

In respect of time to port the things, it depends on the quality and depth of detail you go to. some people/companies have done it in 30 mins, other people have spent 6 hours doing it.

J.

Sam Elassar

thanks J
so what you are saying that the engine does not need to come out.? right

i knew that the turbo has to come off but this is not a problem. the porting will be done on a spare set of exhaust manifolds, so it will work like a swap this way the car won't have to be off the road for a long time.

so far the plan is to port the manifolds both sides, weld the tube in the cross over pipe and port it. also weld the turbo up pipe and smooth the edges with out changing the diameter. the theory the bob suggested is to push the air through the turbo up pipe at a great pressure to increase low down turbo spool up. any other recommendations from any one ?

sam

Bob Rawle

Turbo stays on Sam, you just need to jack up the engine a bit after slackening off the engine mount bolts to get the up pipe off, mailed you about that. (some cars don't even need to do that)

firefox

I said "like" removing the turbo

Like Bob says, its easier to jack the engine up slightly. This makes room to remove the up-pipe. Otherwise it can jam on the flanges.

J.

Mark Pitchford

Sam,

Did you ever do this?

Blow Dog

Have you seen my baseball?

Sam Elassar

hi mark long time no see. i have had it done for a around 10 days now.

the car is pulling noticeably a lot harder on the top and mid range, so i have got even more power at the top end now, low revs are not affected at all, and data logging has proved that. apparentely with a lot of these equal length manifolds you can loose at the low end.

SOUND wise, it is awesome is has changed the note it sounds like it is on nitrous or something to start with until things soot up . noise inside the cabin as not changed at all though, but scott thought it sounded louder with his windows down ( he will have to keep drooling ).

on the road scotts car does not edge away from me even on the top end ANYMORE so the car is definitely faster that it was.

falkland have spent around 4 hours doing it and they think they car do it quicker as mine was the first car to be done


another advantage is the fact it is a stealth mod, no one will be able to tell not that this matters or anything.

Disco

Sam, can I ask how much Falkland charged for this? I'm thinking of getting their downpipe to go with it.

Mail me if you dont want to publicise it.

Thanks

John

Sam Elassar

john u got mail

Disco

Thanks Sam, I'll have to wait till monday at work to read it though!!!

mutant_matt

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sam Elassar:
<B>...the car is pulling noticeably a lot harder on the top and mid range, so i have got even more power at the top end now, low revs are not affected at all, and data logging has proved that. apparentely with a lot of these equal length manifolds you can loose at the low end.[/quote]

Sam, just to clarify, you ported the standard headers right? not put on an Equal Length Manifold? You say it has not improved low down but has improved mid and top, does that also mean that you have not lost anything at the bottom end? Are you using the Link PC thing for the datalogging?

One other thing, I've been speaking to Trout/Rannoch after Steve Lawson ported his headers on another thread and this is what he has to say:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Trout:
<B>at peak boost with porting and no other adjustment the air fuel ratio has dropped considerably - my lambda (CO) readings dropped from an optimum 7% to a scarily lean 5% with this mod alone.

So car needs more fuel (which it will get) and revs so much more freely.

Subjectively and objectively the mod gave a significantly bigger improvement than a good induction kit for example - for about the same price[/quote]

Which is interesting - have your CO readings changed?

Ta,

Matt.

Sam Elassar

hi matt
i have not seen this thread, thanks for pointing it out

i had my standard exhaust manifold ported.

i do have link ECU same as trout, but but i can't remember if i needed to change the map a lot or not to be honest. i have changed the chip in the ecu since and things are a little different now.

saying that all these breathing mods will make you run a little leaner. so if you add a filter, full exhaust you will be running leaner than standard anyway. now add ported manifolds and you get a little leaner again. i would recommend that you check your co levels before getting this mod done. so if you have a UK car which runs extremely rich anyway running around 10%co at the top end with the mods you have you should be very safe with this mod. that is of course IMHO

sammyh

iTrader: (1)

Hi Sam (nice name )I'm having the manifold ported when my Vf is fitted by Steve lawson. do you lose any of the 'flat 4 burble'? that we all love.

Sam

Sam Elassar

hi there sam

you don't loose the flat 4 sound it just gets better

matt
i forgot to say that you don't really anything noticeable at the bottom end. nothing that i have noticed or seen on the data logs anyway.

sam