Andy.F

Block 22kg
Crank 9kg
4 pistons 2kg
4 rods 3 kg
Total = 36kg + packing crate.

A container with a car in it is approx £700 from the US so I think say 1500kg's worth of blocks = 33 units at 45kg all up weight. Thats only £21 each

I'll have a couple please

Andy

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Mark A.:Cannot help you on this one as I will be fully committed until 3rd week February.

David W.: You want to be part of the group buy so why not show your community spirit and help those looking for a competitive source for six speed boxes?

M0NEY

lol at Andy, now that price is very nice

Just means waiting 4-6 weeks

Very true Harvey. Maybe David isnt telling people so he has a good source for 6 speeds incase his had problems

I remember searching through loads of rally breakers for him for 6 speeds but bloody no one had any! lol

Was speaking to a supplier last night. He reckons he can buy the 6speed gearboxes and rear diff abroad and if we get a group buy of 10, they could be had for £1100? Im not sure if this is all in but will do a bit more investigation work

[Edited by M0NEY - 1/24/2004 1:30:14 PM]

M0NEY

I see a lot of sales of peoples short engines, have you added up the cost of the 2.5 before you buy

Right, ive been working out and if people buy it individually from the U.S, it works out like this:

Say £750 for the engine
£200 shipping so thats now £950
Add import tax (10% of £950) which is £1045
Add 17.5% of vat on £1045 which is now £1230

Quite a lot of money! So people sellign your short engines, you sure you want to do this as then with the 2.5 you will want a bigger turbo, injectors, then gearbox etc! lol

Anyway, it depends how we can work out shipping on the group buy, thats going to be the killer.

Another option, to save the hassle, is a supplier has offered £1400 inc vat and delivery to your house with steel head gaskets. Not sure if this is any good as its costing an extra £170 but:

A-i think the goods are in stock so you get them quicker
B-You get steel head gaskets

Obviously if we can get a big number together, then shipping will be cheaper as we can split the costs between all of us like Andy says, but its organising it

Hoppy

£800 is a bargain, and I'm up for up to a grand. But not £1,400.

And, as has been pointed out, these blocks are petty useless without a new gearbox.

I don't mind sporting a grand and sitting on it until the right gearbox option materialises, but not £1,400.

Any more news? I'm very grateful to those people who have alrady done a lot of work on this Group Buy for us. Thanks.

Richard.

[Edited by Hoppy - 1/27/2004 1:00:24 AM]

M0NEY

Very true

its the same with me

£750 seemed really good and thought it will be around £1000 but when you add it up, it adds up more

Then by the time you find a gearbox (if you do), second hand for a 6 speed say you get a deal at around £1500! Thats near £3000 just for the short engine and gearbox!

Then you have to find a nice enough guy to fit it

Then if you havent got the bits already, you need a good turbo, clutch etc and bye bye bank account! lol

Hol

iTrader: (1)

I didnt realise about the gearbox.

I have been working wout whether to EVO or STI7 next. The STI was winning as I could drop the 2.5 parts in and have a TEK3? Not more than 400bhp and reliable, was my target.

Is it actaully known that the US engine will not fit a UK or JDM gearbox? I have heared of people now running 2.5 USDM engines.

Denmark

iTrader: (2)

The gearbox fits fine,it the guys who does not have the 6speed box ,that´s need to upgrate,as the 5speed can´t take the power

Skassa

Pavlo

Oh no!

M0NEY has actually brought this thread in touch with reality!

All of a sudden those mega high prices that people have been charging don't look so high, especially as you could have had your shortblock in less time that this thread has been running.

Paul

Mark A

iTrader: (1)

The situation is this, I waiting for DHL to come back with a land/sea shipping cost. I also asked the USA supplier if they could make enquires as to the cost of non air shipping.

Realistically this is going to cost in excess of £1100. The engines can be purchased for £750 and with the shipping and import tax I calculate it to be @ £1150 (with shipping costing £100, which I'm yet to find)
I will continue to try and find cheaper shipping.

Out of interest, are these engines made in Japan or the USA, and if Japan, may be somebody could approach Subaru Japan, Prodrive or Subaru Uk (Ha Ha) with a request to test a couple of the short engines in a "Racing Car" Or could they be ordered by a US company with the shipping direct to the UK, why pay for shipping twice.

Mark

TopBanana

Have you looked into getting a container?

Pavlo

container or half a container could be much cheaper across 10 short blocks, plus you can fill it up with other goodies too

Paul

Mark A

iTrader: (1)

Anybody got any numbers for container companies in the UK ?

M0NEY

I tried looking Mark, but had no luck

All i ended up doing was finding aggro! lol

Its going to be a hard one to organise. Not sure how Harvey sorted out shipping on FMIC but may be worth talking to him?

Dont forget you will need the container shipped here, then shipped to the organisers address, and then the organiser needs to go through and send it out to the individual group members

Im not trying to bring a down on this group buy. I didnt realise how much work it is myself!

Yep gearboxes - they wont last long! lol. To be honest, i would only look at the 2.5 if your going for big power. We have already seen Alan G hit 415bhp on standard internals, and many people are hitting 400bhp+ on standard internals. If you wanted to do pistons and rods, then this can be done to go further

But realistically, if your looking at a 2.5, you want big power and good torque. Anything over 350 torque, you will need a better gearbox! Lol

Just been adding it up guys myself and the 2.5 short block is cheap, but when you add up everything else, oh momma

BoxerFlat4

Well, been speccing up my own engine build. To let people know what is involved :-

Short block: £1K
Pistons/Rods: £1.5K approx.
Turbo: £1K - £1.5K
Heads/Cams: Could use EJ20 heads/cams, call it £.5K
ECU Solution: £1.5K (Not strictly necassary, and yet it is... )
6MT Gearbox £1.5K - £2K

Making a total of between £7K-£8K approx, not including fitting costs and remapping. For this sort of outlay, your should be looking at a similiar spec to John Banks current engine, ie. 450BHP/400LB torque. With the higher-spec turbo, some decent ECU mapping and (fingers crossed) the 6MT gearbox being able to cope with it, I suspect 500BHP/450LB torque would be possible.

Personally, I had hoped a budget of £8K to include the above with some more being done to the car, ie. suspension, brakes and paintwork. Given extra effort, I would hope to be able to reduce some of these costs by a bit.

Watch this space, as they say

john banks

To be fair at the moment I am only at 400 BHP approx whilst I sort a few breathing issues out, but hope to get nearer to 450 BHP soon.

The peak figures don't tell the story - the torque delivery is just fantastic with pull everywhere if you size the turbo correctly.

You need a big turbo to support this sort of engine to anything like its potential though.

Scooby96

For someone who knows **** all about this - what else would I need other than a bigger turbo (MY93 WRX)

TopBanana

Does anyone know if the US heads are substantially different? Are the valves any bigger?

BoxerFlat4

Scooby96 - Basically, what I listed above is what you would need to do it properly : you could in theory run it on a standard pistons/rods, EJ20 heads and a TD05 turbo to save costs, but you wouldn't be able to tune too far before over-doing it (IMHO).

jlanng - Still looking into this myself, matching the head/cam combination to the turbo will I suspect be critical to best performance. I know of one system that allows you to rev to 9000 RPM ... but this may not be ideal for the remainder of the engine.

IMHO - If your thinking about this route for high performance, you need to budget for at least £7K.

TopBanana

I'm playing with some engine modelling software at the moment which provides a good approximation of expected torque and power delivery.

You can play with things like valve sizes and so on, and it shows you the effects. It seems reasonable to assume that the increase in capacity would allow a decent increase in port sizes without too much of a loss in gas velocity at low engine speeds.

ChristianR

iTrader: (1)

BoxerFlat4, you have forgotten about uprated fuel pump, bigger injectors, and an uprated clutch!

BoxerFlat4

True - although 2 out of these 3 I already have. Factor in another £1k for these on there own, possibly cheaper if second-hand.

Pavlo

LOL

I find it's best not to price it up. If you really want to do it then just go for it and sell you family/soul later on to fund it!

Paul

BoxerFlat4

Cars are like women : they always cost you more than you want/realise/plan for...

I suppose it could be done much cheaper : if all your looking for is a replacement bottom end, to replace a fubarred EJ20 bottom end, then you could just swap them about. I have no idea what the limits of the Ej25 rods/piston combination are : and I can't remember what route JohnB took with his. As a cheap replacement for the engine block, you wouldn't need to add much more expensive : but then your not making the most of the block then.

If anybody thinks this is expensive, last year I'd specced out an engine/drivetrain combination that was still continuing past £15K. This by comparision is cheap !

Andy.F

Here is how I would do it, assuming basic mods already in place such as fmic, decat, induction and injectors.

For 420bhp/420lb-ft
Short block: £1100
Turbo: £850
Heads/Cams: ex donor engine 420bhp from any model
ECU : Apexi PFC £800
6MT Gearbox: £1.5K - £2K
Gaskets/fluids: £100
Clutch: £ 400
Total £4.7k - £5.2k dependant on box price

For 550bhp/500lb-ft

Short block: £1100
Turbo: £1200
Pistons/rods JE/Eagle: £800
Ported heads/Sti cams: £500-£1000
ECU : Link £800/£1000
Injectors: £300
Fuel pump: £200
6MT Gearbox: £1.5K - £2K
Gaskets/fluids: £100
Clutch: £600
Total £7.1k - £8.3k dependant on box/ecu/heads

FWIW I think you need to drive a 420/420 set up like JB's before deciding to go any further ! It really does 'launch' out of the bends from below 3k rpm with absolutely no turbo lag ! If it was a bike it would be up on one wheel ! It would be very easy to do a 360 exiting a roundabout for example by flooring it when you 'think' you are on the straight bit......wicked

Andy

Is there a risk we have not considered re group buys ? The Google link to STD's seems to think so
http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/adclick?sa=l&ai=AeQiBYfpFAl_prkr2AZpwtrJC8P7lFII6D 3YAA34tBIQAh38-BAA0GOQACEgiWAAA3d3duM3Yv9mY55WZ05yYv5SdrBAN2gDe2A zXhNHAAA&num=1&adurl=http://www.drthom.com&client=ca-pub-1328893030471954

[Edited by Andy.F - 1/27/2004 4:56:15 PM]

ChristianR

iTrader: (1)

...and then don't forget to include labour charges ontop!!

lol @ google below about stds! all this group talk eh! better be safe.

Dxx

Just a quick note about the "complete" US 2.5 blocks guys and girls. You must remember, you only get block, crank, pistons, rods, gaskets. You DON'T get bits and bobs, like oil sump, nuts and bolts etc. All these can be purchased from subaru dealer, but £££££s. Alternatively, you would need an impreza engine to cannabilise for all the bits and bobs. Worth bearing in mind as can increase overall cost!!

Dxx

M0NEY

What about

headers
FMIC
Decat donwpipe and exhaust if you dont have it
Up pipe if you dont have it
Some really good brakes to stop! lol

No point sitting down and working it out, you will just cry! lol

Hoppy

Yes, the total costs of a fully upgraded and rebuilt engine are high. I don't think anyone is expecting to bolt on one of these USDM 2.5 blocks and roll away with 500bhp for a grand

The difference is that if you can do the block and pistons for £1k you are already saving, plus you get the high-torque advantages of an extra 0.5l.

It doesn't matter what block/pistons/rods you've got, it seems that for anything reliable running over 350lbs/ft demands several thousands more spent on the rest of the motor and transmission.

So no news there. But we seem to have proved that Scoobs are capable of far more bhp than was previously thought possible. Torque is the limiting factor. On the other hand, the idea of a 1.5l short-stroke spinning at 10,000rpm is not very appealing

Richard.

M0NEY

Thing is, its not even £1k for the engine - its costing more than that.

If you want up to 350lbs of torque, you can do this on a standard 2.0 with the right mods! If you want more than this, which is why you are thinking about the 2.5, then thats where all the big costs come from

its already proven that the 2.0 can do pretty well. So many people are hitting 400+ bhp now with around 350 torque on the std gearbox.

But when you go pass this limit, bye bye gearbox and bye bye everything else

So really you should only go for the 2.5 if you want absolutely crazy power! lol. Otherwise you can get enough power from the 2.0

Well thats what i have worked out over the past 2 weeks. lol