CustomScoobies.Com

Whats wrong with ion??

No irony in it whatsoever. I have an Ion turbo thanks.

Any need for the **** stirring either?

john banks

There is enough stirring here to setup a sewerage treatment works. When am I going to get a response Mark? Your "next few days" is now four days. Is this "working days"? Are you going to do me the courtesy of explaining what you are waiting for, how long I am going to have to wait, and open some discussion to sort this little mess out? Positions are entrenched enough already!

I have had four sentences of email from you this year on this whole subject and you have my detailed responses to them.

[Edited by john banks - 1/11/2004 6:33:28 PM]

T-uk

R19KET
Scooby Regular
Posts: 1840
From: Lateral Performance Ltd.
Registered: 04-05-1999
[ADD TO MY VIP LIST]

posted Sunday, January 11, 2004 17:52

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would just like to point out, that the "unbreakable gear kit" sold by Town End Garage is made by Modena, NOT PAR.

Mark.


so can we assume this is a working day since you are posting from lateral performance ltd , answering a question. just like you did over the x-mas/new year period?.

RB5SCOTT

Jonny Gav

and whats your ******* problem you Pr1ck

john banks

Maybe his objection was to your immediate dismissal of what Harvey was questioning as stirring. There is more to this than stirring, they are very important issues when seen in context of an expensive product and its claims and ability to live up to them.

I hope Scott you can appreciate the number of failures of this item amongst a few of the well known users of this kit. I really hope yours does work well for you, you seriously don't want all the hassle that myself and others go through when a component like this fails even if it is attended to quickly and easily.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

RB5SCOTT:
Can you explain your comment?

I asked a simple question and a simple,adequate answer from the European vendor would have put the matter to bed, if indeed the claims could be substantiated.

jonny gav

iTrader: (1)

scott, you being a ***** is my problem!

RB5SCOTT

Harvey

Because it was John's kit that broke, it should of been John that posted this thread instead of you. Everyone knows that you and Mark do not get on and by you starting this thread it seems that you are only carrying on with your personal vendetta with him! it could of just turned into another slanging match between you and Mark As it turns out this has been quite a useful thread for myself as i was not aware of how many failures there has been and as i bought the kit on the knowledge that it will be able to handle the power that i will be running, i will not be happy if it decides to **** itself

I will be putting it to the test over the next couple of weeks and i will make sure i'm not running over 400lb/ft, just incase there is any warranty issues

Scott

RB5SCOTT

Maybe i will do something about it if i ever see you then!

jonny gav

iTrader: (1)

see at well lane?

CustomScoobies.Com

Chill guys

chiark

Could you chill it on the unrelated argument guys (Scott/Jonny Gav)? This looks to be a pretty important thread, and it deserves not to turn into a slanging match. It seems to be largely avoiding that at the moment .

My apologies for singling you two out, but I want to make sure this thread continues, and also that the points are resolved with minimum fuss.

Cheers,
Nick.

john banks

You need to work quite hard to make anything like 400 lfbt at least at Star or Powerstation, even on a 2.5 with a 20G, optimal timing courtesy of J&S and NF octane booster Scott. Accelerometer or Road Dyno figures cannot be inflated by rolling road losses.

For example: my 20G at 1.7 bar at Star on the 2.0 made "only" 338 lbft. The Delta Dash road dyno figure for the same spec was 320 lbft at the wheels. For a decat MY00 it runs about 194 lbft at the wheels and 216 lbft at the flywheel on the dyno. On the dyno it is from run down losses, so it is the same regardless of power, and seems to be about 20lbft +- 10%.

On the 2.5 litre at just under 1.4 bar the Delta Dash road dyno absolute best was 369 lbft at the wheels with standard heavy smoothing which is what I've always used, along with aggressive timing. I don't want to stress the engine by going any higher than this as the cylinder pressures start to get funky for my delicate internals, but I suspect at Star I will never get 400 lbft unless I use funny fuel or 1.5 bar or possibly both. I would estimate I was running up to 390 lbft at the time of failure. I have been mindful to respect the warranty all along and design my tuning and parts selection around the limiting part - hence the stable power and torque targets since Feb 2003 in my project thread.

We'll have to see what the car runs when I get the six speed in at Star.

RB5SCOTT

Ok thanks John, my warranty should be ok then

john banks

Depends on which rollers you use, you'll have to do your own calculations and tests for your chosen dyno as you go along - if using Ecutek you can Delta Dash it easily. AP22 usually reads a bit higher from what I've seen. Delta Dash is affected by up to 10WHP artificially inflated if your tyres are worn as well.

My calculations are all based on Star results, obviously in an ongoing project such as mine I can't be taking it to the dyno every time I change something at £70 a pop, but I do genuinely take care to measure mods as I go along. I have absolutely dozens of power logs on my laptop from all the stages of development from the TD05 onwards. Star is regularly calibrated, and reports results to DIN 70020. Even though it reads lower than some other rollers (allegedly ) it still reads standard cars at standard book levels so can't be that dismal.

[Edited by john banks - 1/11/2004 9:15:38 PM]

EvilBevel

Custom,

Nothing wrong with Ion at all.

That was not my point.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Scott : It has been quite obvious for several months that there were problems with some PAR gear kits but a few of you guys chose to vilify me. I doubt you would have bought one of these kits if you knew then what you know now and while you think I am stirring it I think it is beneficial to other Subaru owners to know that the solution presented as a panacea was in fact flawed.
My question was quite fair and the supplier or manufacturer could have come back with information. For instance, when I first heard of problems with the PAR kit I concluded it was likely to be on a single manufacturing batch with a problem relating to the material used or the heat treatment process. After all, if the product had been extensively tested in Australia and the UK and was successful, then something has changed.
However, we now know of five Lateral/PAR failures and I understand Mark told John he had sold 30 of these kits. If we assume that figure is 33 then the failure rate is 15%, so you have a 1 in 7 chance of being unlucky. Also note the failures on cars that do not have 450 bhp / 400 ft.lbs.
Now I can give you similar information relating to failed turbos and under performing turbos but that should be on another thread.
You will also note comment by others on unsubstantiated advertising claims relating to clutches, where, despite every clutch being individually checked and rejected if it does not meet the specification the vendor is unable to supply test results or certificates.
I am glad that Stan S. received good service from Lateral when he had his PAR problem but why has that not been extended to John Banks who must be one of the company`s better customers and what of the other warranty claims past or present.
Surely it is in the interests of the Subaru community to be alert to the deficiencies of certain products regardless of who the vendor is so they can make a balanced judgement and avoid purchase on flawed recommendations.

StickyMicky

ohhh sorry for my bad spelling
but theres a reason why its so bad, and i will be honest, after i left school i have had no reason what so ever to actualy use english properlly

ill be honest, i cant even write anything with a pen in joined up writeing anymore, ive had no need and have forgot how to write lol (i can write in block capitals fine, did a few passages for my bird in joined up styley and it looked like sumbody learning how to write )

theres also the fact that ive worn away most of the letters from my keyboard and cant be botherd to buy a new one
and half the time im guessing which keys are where

CustomScoobyIOM

No worries

CraigH

LOL @ Sticky

Not so LOL at a nother snet Witchunt.

Reminds me of the troubles I had when selling AVO shocks. Everyone very quick to jump down your throat due to cr4p manufacturing, despite the fact you're trying to sort it out. I sorted all my customers out, left me out of pocket for nigh on 12months.
Dealing with suppliers is not always easy and as to the "tried and tested before sold" comments, being realistic, how many companies can actually do that? You have to a certain extent, rely on your suppliers information - it is not feasible to test every single product you sell, despite what company websites may say BRD may be in a fortunate position to be able to do so, but that doesn't mean all the companies out there can match that. This obviously leaves it open to being forced to believe the manufacturers (potential) biased information, but that's the same with everytihng isn't it? "New improved Brand X is xxxx times better than Brand Y" etc.

I think this thread should be locked pending investigation by Mark, followed by a post as to his conclusion.

It's serving no purpose, other than for people to rubbish his products.

Totally off topic, John, if you wouldn't mind, would you be able to email me your findings on NF if you get a moment please?

Thanks.

john banks

If you advertise claims you can't back up that is a serious matter, and that was the original topic of this thread.

If you are an expert selling something you should have the financial backing and/or insurance (hopefully not just in the form of a limited company wrapper) to sort issues like this out.

The gear kit appears to have been removed from Scoobyshop overnight. The clutch advert has been revised as per the thread in Drivetrain. These are IMHO positive steps and at least in part due to this thread and the one in Drivetrain questioning the adverts for the gearbox and clutch.

There is the issue remaining from discussion in this thread as to how two of us with failed kits who are at least £2500-3000 each out of pocket will be refunded. If this is settled quickly there will be no need for further discussion, until then the thread should remain open IMHO. If it were not for the difficulties I have been having getting an agreement to a refund, I suspect the gearbox failures would never have been made known which is both good and bad - avoids a lot of aggravation, but a suspect product continues to be sold.

"Witch hunt" implies an unfair and unjustified process. It is an open forum to point out what has been unfair or unjustified, and some have contributed on both sides.

If every discussion over a trader's behaviour and product was a "Witch hunt" then that automatically makes all traders beyond question. The law takes a different view.

CustomScoobyIOM

Leave this thread open. Its interesting read and obviously the point needs to be highlighted.

This is the whole point of the Dealer Thread. For people to discuss issues with a certain dealer. Any problems etc. And this is a significant problem.

There is no need to lock the thread.

Adam M

John,

Legally I think the term expert refers to someone who has practised in an area as their day in day out job for 10 years.

Mark can therefore be classed as an expert salesman, but I don't see him claiming to be a gearbox or a performance modifying expert.

I have not seen anyone claim that to be fair.

mark merely said tested in the UK and AUS at over the claimed output, he didn't declare the nature of that testing, nor is there a legal standard for a minimum amount of testing required in order to use the word test.

Arguably a gearbox could be aseembled and then tested to see if it rotates without jamming over the course of one revolution. It has been "tested" in that situation, and in the absence of detailed clarification of what was intended by the word testing, I don't see any false claims.

It is similar to carlsberg saying probably the best lager in the world. How do you quantify what makes it the best? you can't, therefore it is an ambiguous claim. It doesn't mean that the lager is being sold under false pretenses.

Another issue is that there are cars in aus (and perhaps canada?) running over 450 bhp operating on the synchro gearkit, so your point related to false advertising based on the fact that mark has said in the UK also. Am not sure legally what difference it makes where the testing has taken place to be honest. If there was particular merit to UK testing potentially achieving a different outcome than aus testing, then perhaps it would be a contentious issue, but as it stands I don't see what difference it makes, and no one, on this thread at least, has explained satisfactorily any other way of looking at it.

I am not saying that you don't have a right to feel upset, I just don't think it is such an open and shut case and in the light of the way this thread is going, then perhaps an even sided approach to the situation might give rise to an outcome (on this thread) which is beneficial to all those affected.

chiark

I don't see this is purely slagging off Lateral - a doubt has been raised about the PAR/Chalak gearsets, and I think it is worthwhile for everyone that this is investigated and clarified either way. As Harvey has said, any other queries should be dealt with on a separate thread - let's keep this one focussed.

If I was a supplier trying to sort out a warranty claim, I would not want every blow posted on a BBS, but that's John's choice. I sincerely do hope that you get it sorted with Mark to a mutually acceptable conclusion but wonder if posting on a BBS is the best way of doing it? Happy either way, but just wondering if it might not be the best way of getting things sorted?

If people have strong views that this should go, please mail me.

Cheers,
Nick.

Danny Fisher

Craig, for the moderators to stop this thread they would have to look at there 'OWN' standards. As most of us know, its all double standards, and if your face fits on scoobynet.

Dan

R19KET

John, you will have a reply by tommorrow evening, the latest.


Right, this post has NO reflection on either John's, or Richards position. It is to qualify why the Scooby shop advert was removed, and the ONLY reason for doing so.

PAR, the manufacturer of the gear kit have recently changed their policy with regards to the sale of their gear kits.

They no longer offer a warranty on their gear kit products, unless they have sent one of their engineers to the Distributer/gearbox builder, for specific training on their products.

The Alternative, is that they now offer to supply the kits fully built up, on a "core exchange" basis.

This applies to ALL their Distributers world wide.

So, until I can see if it's viable to have one of their engineers come to the UK, or have worked out the viability of having PAR supply gear boxs complete, I have removed the advert.

Lastly, the question of testing:

The PAR gear products have been well proven World wide, to take the power. I didn't know that ion were using a PAR gear kit on their 700bhp Legacy, but kits have also been used by Tony Rigoli, Easystreet (USA) and the D-Bronx cars to name a few. All of these cars have recorded 10 sec' 1/4 mile times using PAR gear kits.

Testing in the UK was done on my car, and whilst it was only a few thousand miles, it was more to see how the kit was to use, it's noise levels, and whether it would stand up in my own car.

The fact that the products had been proven by companies such as Rigoli, over long time periods, showed that the product was up to the job.

With regard to how much power my car did, or didn't have, well, all I can say is that after TOTB the fuelling had been remapped, and however much power it was producing, was enough to snap a piston gudgeon pin.

I have also had Barretts Motorsport strip, and inspect the box since then, and it was in perfect condition.

As a side note, I don't have a problem with this thread remaining. I have nothing to hide, and will deal with any warranty claim with integrity.

I would ask that the moderators make sure that we stick to the point of the thread, and don't allow certain individuals to use it as a vehicle for their own personal vendetta, however poorly disguised !

Mark.

john banks

Mark, I look forward to your reply.

Adam, OK I give in on the expert claim. However, the claim of UK testing has not been substantiated to be in excess of the guaranteed limits. The relevance of it is not the question - the claim itself is, and it has been shown to be false.

Are these other high power cars running the synchro kit or the dog kit? What is the longest a 10 second car has lasted with a synchro kit?

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Dog boxes John which makes it irrelevant to the discussions on here.

john banks

Re snapping gudgeon pin - wasn't the gudgeon pin underspecified for the job, so that does not really qualify the level of performance?

Otherwise you could imply I ran over 450 BHP and 400 lbft and that is why I broke a gearbox rated for these figures. Bit of a circular argument?

john banks

And then the implication that would be unavoidable is that an Andy F turbo did this feat at rather low boost on a standard Subaru block tuned by a GP, a farmer and a brewery engineer.